Lift pump

[Mike on Sea Hustler]

Hi All

i recently bought a motor sailer (ok it’s not a narrow boat but be nice) it is 54 years old and has an inboard BMC Captain 1500 cc engine. She has been used as a live aboard since 2018 and moored on a marina in Essex. Although the previous owner reportedly turned the engine by hand from time to time (yeah right they did) I am still having a few problems sorting it. I got it to the point of thinking it was ready for an attempt to fire it up when it became apparent the the lift pump wasn’t, lifting that is. So  rather than mess about I bought a new one. Here is where it gets difficult. I watch tons of videos on YouTube showing how easy these jobs are BUT- and it is a BUT the size of the biggest but you have ever seen- the designer of this boat gave no thought to actually working on it. While I can usually do these jobs myself, There is absolutely no room to get at the side of the engine and no matter what I do I can’t get the old lift pump off. I have undone the two retaining nuts (mine has studs nit bolts) and both fuel

lines but I simply cannot get the pump free from the side of the block, it’s loose but I just can’t get it off. Any idea would be most helpful. A frustrated and befuddled newbie.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

16 minutes ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

Hi All

i recently bought a motor sailer (ok it’s not a narrow boat but be nice) it is 54 years old and has an inboard BMC Captain 1500 cc engine. She has been used as a live aboard since 2018 and moored on a marina in Essex. Although the previous owner reportedly turned the engine by hand from time to time (yeah right they did) I am still having a few problems sorting it. I got it to the point of thinking it was ready for an attempt to fire it up when it became apparent the the lift pump wasn’t, lifting that is. So  rather than mess about I bought a new one. Here is where it gets difficult. I watch tons of videos on YouTube showing how easy these jobs are BUT- and it is a BUT the size of the biggest but you have ever seen- the designer of this boat gave no thought to actually working on it. While I can usually do these jobs myself, There is absolutely no room to get at the side of the engine and no matter what I do I can’t get the old lift pump off. I have undone the two retaining nuts (mine has studs nit bolts) and both fuel

lines but I simply cannot get the pump free from the side of the block, it’s loose but I just can’t get it off. Any idea would be most helpful. A frustrated and befuddled newbie.

 

Welcome to the forum. Can you post some photos of the affected area? General view and detailed. More likely to stimulate some useful answers.

[rusty69]

Have you tried gently levering it, or rotating the engine on the crank handle (if it has one) ? 

 

Stick around Tony and Tracy will sort you out. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by rusty69

[springy]

Have you tried turning the engine over by hand slowly - if the lift pump arm was on the peak of the lobe when it was stopped then it could be trapping the arm, turning the engine over by hand might release it, turn the crank 1/2 turn and see if the lift pump gets "looser", if not try another 1/2 turn in the same direction and check again.   If you have the new pump to hand its worth looking at the side view and visualise where in the block the arm  would end up and consider position of the mounting studs - this may allow you to work out which way it has to come.

 

    

[rusty69]

BTW. Could you add an access panel, through a  locker or quarter berth to make maintenance easier. Our sailboat has a removable panel in the quarter berth to make access to the side of the engine easier. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by rusty69

[Tony Brooks]

I will await the photo, because they may need a bit or a wriggle or even a clout with a bit of wood to break the gasket and any goo free. I think that you may have to tilt it and slide it downwards.

[Mike on Sea Hustler]

Thanks everyone for your advise, so  I have wriggled, pulled, twisted, heaved, pushed, lifted, (as far as I am able) shaken my fist at,  sworn quite a bit and wondered why I didn't buy a sports car but nothing worked. Knowing my limitations, I vowed I would not do a Jeremy Clarkson on this boat and replace steady and sure with "power and speed". The last thing I want or can afford is to do serious damage to something I cannot repair myself. Nothing I did would make this pump come off so in desperation I refitted it and started the whole process again trying to bleed the system, deciding that if I cant get it to work and I cant remove it, I would simply take it offline and replace it with a 12v electric pump which I'm confident I can do. It is also worth noting that to reach the lift pump I have to lay on the cockpit sole with my feet in the aft cabin and reach at arms length down to the pump while resting my forehead on the cross member above the engine. Adding the diesel which is now soaking my hands, making all my tools super slippery, I have so far lost my best screwdriver, a 12 and 13mm spanner and one retaining nut into the bilges. Which, given the total lack of space around and under the engine are now lost to the Great Bilge God of the Sea until one day I decide to lift the engine completely (should have done it when I had the funds ) From another post made today, you may see I have hit another snag with the anti stall thingy, mistaking it for a bleed screw and loosening it (oh and why not disassemble the entire thing and clean it up while you have it off) only to discover that the bleed screw was just the little bolt on top and not the entire thing. A boat yard has advised me to remove the entire pump and send it away to be reset at the factory, that seems excessive because there is an O ring under the locking nut and if every time that had to be replaced you had to remove the pump and send it away, that would be stupid. Looking at the enclosed pic, that metal thing on the right is the fuel tank, comparing the width of the air filter you can see that there is not a lot of room so the ships cat is perfectly safe as I couldn't swing it if I tried.

 

Any advice will be thankfully received and faithfully applied.

 

Mike

[Tony Brooks]

This may sound extreme but can you get the exhaust manifold off. If so the inlet manifold will just fall off complete with air cleaner, and you should have much better access.

 

If this is a GRP sea boat a magnet on an extending wand inserted from under the gearbox may well retrieve the tools, if not the nut.

 

I have tried to give some help in the other topic you started.

[Mike on Sea Hustler]

Many thanks, I have a magnet on a string with which I have already retrieved a number of dropped items but my view is very restricted a little like a blind man fly fishing in the English Channel. I will be taking a long stick with me next time I go to the boat but there is so little room and I'm working though a small trapdoor at the front of the engine with little or no sight of what Im looking for.

 

I did consider removing the heat exchanger to give me better access but in all honesty, simply fitting an electric pump would be a lot easier I think.

 

Thanks for your advice, got to remember how to find my other thread now LOl

Can you recall what title I gave that other post because I cant remember

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

Can you recall what title I gave that other post because I cant remember

 

Ooooopppps

 

 

[Mike on Sea Hustler]

Yeah thanks I found it, I have posted what I hope is a reasonable clear reply which I hope its not to convoluted.

[Tony Brooks]

Mike, The instructions for the anti-stall device seem to be missing from the common manuals, but I found this:

 

Sorry about the screen shot quality.

 

 

Now the "stuck" lift pump.

 

I was sure that the lift pumps that I remembered had a very hooked operating lever that operated on the side of the eccentric, the modern ones are different with the lever operating close to the top of the eccentric. These modern ones should almost pull straight out but with the age of your boat I suspect that you have a hooked one.

 

You also said something that makes me think the lever is sat on close to the top of the eccentric and if so Y doubt you would have enough free movement to pull it out because you have to tilt the bottom of the pump upwards so the lever moves back towards the eccentric.

 

If you have not already done so turn the engine one turn and operate the priming lever, most of the movement should be stiff, if most is slack turn the engine a bit and try again until the priming lever movement is mainly stiff.

 

Now undo the nuts holding the pump in place and pull the pump as far off the studs as you can, but you won't get it all the way so twist the bottom of the pump away from the engine until it clears the studs, so you can pull it downwards.

 

Now - if it is a hooked lever you need to take great care in refitting, it is all too easy to get the lever on the wrong side of the eccentric. You need to keep the pump pulled away from the engine and slide the lever up the inside of the block to ensure it is between the eccentric and block wall.

[Mike on Sea Hustler]

Hi Tony,

Many thanks for the info, I couldn't find those instruction in the pdf manual that I have but your description was pretty clear and I was fairly sure I could do the job armed with that, having those instruction will make it even easier so thanks again. Just one question, (sorry you've been so helpful already) you mentioned in an earlier post on adjusting the idle speed "near the disc thing" I'm trying to picture the injection pump from 78 mile away and I'm not really sure what you meant by that, could you explain please.

 

On the lift pump - I think I have pretty much exhausted every possibility and reading what you say I was able to tick off just about everything I have done thus far. I think your post enables me to decide that if the pump may possibly be faulty my best option is to leave it in situ, fit a low pressure electric pump and simply take the manual pump offline. Just to confirm, Im fairly convinced from your description that I have the hooked type of pump (that's the one Calcutt boats sent me anyway) and not only can I not pull the original far enough off the studs to lever it out, nor can I get a second nut onto the studs to remove them either as they are not long enough, I doubt very much if I could fit the new one with any confidence that I would get the arm the correct side of the cam given the lack of wiggle room I have down there either.

 

Starter battery arrived today so I will fit a new starter battery and leisure battery at the weekend,  see if I cant finish bleeding the fuel system and give it a go. As I said earlier, I reckon three things could stop it firing, Fuel supply - but I should be able to confirm that by bleeding it up to the injectors before I try starting it. Glow Plugs, they will be my first item to check and if they are good its down to the injectors themselves. So fingers crossed and I shall pray to the Diesel Gods to bestow their bounteous blessing upon me - or better still, on the engine.

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

As I said earlier, I reckon three things could stop it firing, Fuel supply - but I should be able to confirm that by bleeding it up to the injectors before I try starting it. Glow Plugs, they will be my first item to check and if they are good its down to the injectors themselves

Even if the glow plugs aren't working it should still start at this time of year. Just might take a bit longer, and with more white smoke (unburnt diesel) from the exhaust before it catches.

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

Just one question, (sorry you've been so helpful already) you mentioned in an earlier post on adjusting the idle speed "near the disc thing" I'm trying to picture the injection pump from 78 mile away and I'm not really sure what you meant by that, could you explain please.

 

 

Where the actual throttle lever is fixed to the pump, there is a disk with a ring of holes in it. You mentioned the disk in, I think, your first post. Look at the image I posted. Just on the opposite side of this disk to the lever there are two long set screws sticking up with lock nuts tight down onto the governor housing, one either side of the spindle. One should have an aluminium shroud over it secured with locking wire and a lead seal, but on an old boat the shroud is often missing. This one you should never touch because it sets the maximum speed and is usually the closest to the front of the pump - the end bolted to the engine. The other is the idle adjustment. Even if the shroud is missing, once the engine is running by seeing which set screw stops the throttle moving to the point at which the engine stalls.

7 hours ago, David Mack said:

Even if the glow plugs aren't working it should still start at this time of year. Just might take a bit longer, and with more white smoke (unburnt diesel) from the exhaust before it catches.

 

I agree in theory, but this is a 1958 boat, and we have no idea about its condition. We also do not know how badly the glow plug tips are carboned up. If it makes clouds of white smoke during cranking it should start, but on an elderly BMC1.5 I have my doubts, sometimes the glow plugs working makes all the difference.

[agg221]

Two more bits of information which may come in useful.

 

Firstly - your lift pump is held on nuts and studs which makes it even more difficult to wiggle out. One option if the threads are in decent condition is to buy a few half nuts. If you aren't familiar with these, they are half the thickness of a normal nut, usually used as locknuts. A pair of half nuts screwed on and done up tight against each other so that they lock on the thread can be used to remove the stud (put the spanner on the innermost nut to undo it against the other nut). This will give you more wiggle room to get the pump out. Refitting is easy - either use a bolt, or studs do not actually need to be tight in the hole so screw in by hand and then screw the nut down on top. There is a good reason why studs and nuts are used rather than bolts, but in practice it won't make any relevant difference here.

 

Secondly - if this is the lift pump I think it is then it is common to the 1500 block as fitted to the Triumph Spitfire and the later MG Midget, which is where I have encountered it. There are two different lengths of arm on the older ones and the newer ones. It is not usually possible to get the shorter armed type so you are supplied with an adaptor block to put between the pump and the block so that you can use the longer armed type. If you do manage to get the pump off I would check whether that applies in your case. If so, you may also need to change the studs for longer ones (we had to on the Midget). I am not familiar with the diesel version of this engine so Tony, please correct me if this does not actually apply.

 

Alec

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Two more bits of information which may come in useful.

 

Firstly - your lift pump is held on nuts and studs which makes it even more difficult to wiggle out. One option if the threads are in decent condition is to buy a few half nuts. If you aren't familiar with these, they are half the thickness of a normal nut, usually used as locknuts. A pair of half nuts screwed on and done up tight against each other so that they lock on the thread can be used to remove the stud (put the spanner on the innermost nut to undo it against the other nut). This will give you more wiggle room to get the pump out. Refitting is easy - either use a bolt, or studs do not actually need to be tight in the hole so screw in by hand and then screw the nut down on top. There is a good reason why studs and nuts are used rather than bolts, but in practice it won't make any relevant difference here.

 

Secondly - if this is the lift pump I think it is then it is common to the 1500 block as fitted to the Triumph Spitfire and the later MG Midget, which is where I have encountered it. There are two different lengths of arm on the older ones and the newer ones. It is not usually possible to get the shorter armed type so you are supplied with an adaptor block to put between the pump and the block so that you can use the longer armed type. If you do manage to get the pump off I would check whether that applies in your case. If so, you may also need to change the studs for longer ones (we had to on the Midget). I am not familiar with the diesel version of this engine so Tony, please correct me if this does not actually apply.

 

Alec

 

To my knowledge, what one may take as a distance piece between the block and lift pump on BMC B series petrol engines were in fact thermal insulators to try to help prevent vapour locking. I have no knowledge of long and short pump levers on the BMC 1.5D, only the new ones seem to operate on a different part of the eccentric, so look very different. Personally, I would have thought the Spitfire had a Triumph engine rather than the B series, but that is only a guess. I am sure that the MG Midget use the BMC A series engine, not the B series. I am not into sports cars, so could be wrong.

[agg221]

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

To my knowledge, what one may take as a distance piece between the block and lift pump on BMC B series petrol engines were in fact thermal insulators to try to help prevent vapour locking. I have no knowledge of long and short pump levers on the BMC 1.5D, only the new ones seem to operate on a different part of the eccentric, so look very different. Personally, I would have thought the Spitfire had a Triumph engine rather than the B series, but that is only a guess. I am sure that the MG Midget use the BMC A series engine, not the B series. I am not into sports cars, so could be wrong.

Having now checked, the engine I am familiar with is not a BMC B series but a Triumph SC. I thought it was based on the same block but it turns out it isn't. The early Midgets did use the A series BMC but the later ones used the Triumph SC rather than the B series which, although they share many common design features, are not duplicates and the comments on pump arm length may well therefore not apply as it may be an idiosyncrasy of the Triumph design. On this, two different versions were definitely used as I had to change one for the other but that probably won't matter to the OP.

 

Alec

Edited June 1, 2023 by agg221

[Mike on Sea Hustler]

Hi Gents,

Tony,

Many thanks for the info, I couldn't find those instruction in the pdf manual that I have but your description was pretty clear and I was fairly sure I could do the job armed with that, having those instruction will make it even easier so thanks again. Just one question, (sorry you've been so helpful already) you mentioned in an earlier post on adjusting the idle speed "near the disc thing" I'm trying to picture the injection pump from 78 mile away and I'm not really sure what you meant by that, could you explain please.

 

And to All three of you, Alec and David included,

 

On the lift pump - I think I have pretty much exhausted every possibility and reading what you all say I was able to tick off just about everything I have done thus far. I think your posts enable me to decide that if the pump may possibly be faulty my best option is to leave it in situ, fit a low pressure electric pump and simply take the manual pump offline. Just to confirm, Im fairly convinced from your descriptions that I have the hooked type of pump (that's the one Calcutt boats sent me anyway) and not only can I not pull the original far enough off the studs to lever it out, nor can I get a second nut onto the studs to remove them either as they are not long enough, Its interesting that you say the nuts do not need to be tightened too much as I was surprised they seem pretty loose when I took them off, now I know why. Removing the studs would work using half nuts I guess and is an option should I need to, it will be a toss up between that and fitting an electric pump,

 

I keep hearing mention a BSS Certificate and having done some research I would need to ensure any pump I fitted complied. I have seen some inexpensive metal ones floating around on eBay, would they do? or do I need something more sophisticated. I doubt very much if I could fit the new lift pump with any confidence that I would get the arm the correct side of the cam given the lack of wiggle room I have down there either ,so at the moment, the electric option is ahead by a short neck..

 

Starter battery arrived today so I will fit a new starter battery and leisure battery at the weekend,  see if I cant finish bleeding the fuel system and give it a go. As I said earlier, I reckon three things could stop it firing, Fuel supply - but I should be able to confirm that by bleeding it up to the injectors before I try starting it. Glow Plugs, they will be my first item to check and if they are good its down to the injectors themselves. So fingers crossed and I shall pray to the Diesel Gods to bestow their bounteous blessing upon me - or better still, on the engine.

 

Thought I had posted this last night but guess I didn't meanwhile thanks again for all your help, a newbie like me would be sat here scratching my head otherwise.

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Mike on Sea Hustler

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

Thought I had posted this last night

 

You did - 12 hours ago (6 posts above your last post)

[Mike on Sea Hustler]

LOL, thought I had, so many posts I've lost track, still it gave me a chance to edit it and thank the others that have offered assistance. S

[Tony Brooks]

Mike,

 

Unless you intend to bring your yacht onto inland waterways, you don't need a BSC. Mainly required for CaRT, the EA, and some smaller navigation authorities like the Avon trust. I am not sure about Chichester basin & canal though.

 

If you do decide to take the glow plugs out for goodness sake be very gentle and careful. Once 1.5 pin type plugs have been in for a while, they carbon up and stick in the head. You need to worry them out. That is start by TIGHTENING a little, then undo by a similar amount, say one flat at a time. Even so there is every chance one or more will snap the tip off in the head. If this happens, you can drill them out by HAND drill or low voltage battery drill. I think you need a 7/64" bit (I always forget) or a fraction of a mm larger than the tip. This is likely to leave a small piece of tip in the pre-combustion chamber which in theory could come out and either embed itself in the piston or jamb under an exhaust valve, but I have done so many without a problem. The BMC is normally tolerant of small nuts, stones, or plug tip embedding in the piston crown. If you are unwilling to take the (small) risk, it is  ahead of job and shake the tip out of the throat in the head.

 

My advice is to leave the glow plugs alone until you have ensured everything else is doing what it should, especially if access is difficult.

 

I think that I have suggested that a Facit electric pump from a car parts place (motor factors, not Halfords) would be a good choice. Otherwise, as long as you can show the BBS examiner proof that the body is fire-resistant as per the BS/ISO in the BSS manual, the body will have to be metal. Likewise, any hose you use must meet similar BS/ISOs. To reiterate, sea boats do not need to comply with the BSS unless demanded by a marina operator, harbour authority, or your insurance company.

[Mike on Sea Hustler]

Thanks for that info Tony,

 

Note to self, leave glow plugs alone

 

On the BSS, I have a friend who you may well know, name of Bev and his brother Chris, they have also been quite helpful but I'm often met with a "Im not sure" from them if I pose too technical questions. Bev keeps telling me "it must be BSS Compliant" so I assumed it did, Sea Hustler is a bilge keel Motor Sailer with a very shallow draft, only 2'6" and I was intending to do a bit of inland water ways exploration at some time and although my insurance company did not ask for a Certificate, I guess I will need a one in the future.

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

 I guess I will need a one in the future.

 

Only if and when you go inland, and even then I think there may be short term exemptions for craft entering from the sea, maybe only the EA or Thames. If you think of going inland seriously, then it would be a good idea to download the BSS manual and latest updates for PRIVATE craft and study it. That may save you spending money unnecessarily whilst ensuring the boat will be complaint in the future. Getting fuel hoses and fire extinguishers with the correct markings now, for example.

[agg221]

8 hours ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

Its interesting that you say the nuts do not need to be tightened too much as I was surprised they seem pretty loose when I took them off, now I know why. Removing the studs would work using half nuts I guess and is an option should I need to, it will be a toss up between that and fitting an electric pump,

 

Starter battery arrived today so I will fit a new starter battery and leisure battery at the weekend,  see if I cant finish bleeding the fuel system and give it a go. As I said earlier, I reckon three things could stop it firing, Fuel supply - but I should be able to confirm that by bleeding it up to the injectors before I try starting it. Glow Plugs, they will be my first item to check and if they are good its down to the injectors themselves. So fingers crossed and I shall pray to the Diesel Gods to bestow their bounteous blessing upon me - or better still, on the engine.

 

In case I have been unclear on this - the nuts should be firm, not gorilla tight. You need to be confident that they will not undo but equally you don't need to crush anything. The particular point I was making was that if you do take the studs out, you don't need to re-fit them any tighter than hand tight as the nuts will still lock in place. You can then easily take them out again if you ever need to again. Normally you aim to lock the studs in place (with a pair of lock nuts) as the purpose of using studs and nuts is that you don't wear the thread in the block when changing components. When the outer thread finally gets worn or damaged you can replace the stud and the thread will then not need moving for decades. However, on an engine of this age and with this particular part, the odds are that you wouldn't need to take it out for decades anyway so you won't end up with excessive wear on the thread in the block, in contrast to, say, a fuel filter or other service component.

Alec