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A polite plea to dawdlers.


noddyboater

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1 minute ago, Loddon said:

Got stuck behind a tractor towing a slurry tank in Northamptonshire this week 6 bloody miles.

At least at home the Devon farmers pull into a layby to let the traffic overtake. I have a feeling that they only do this in winter🤔

 

Slurry is typically applied just after silaging, so its probably why you got stuck. 1st cut is always a busy time of year for dairy/cattle, because its so important. 

 

You are unlikely to see a slurry tanker in winter because there is a closed season.

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48 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Slurry is typically applied just after silaging, so its probably why you got stuck. 1st cut is always a busy time of year for dairy/cattle, because its so important. 

 

You are unlikely to see a slurry tanker in winter because there is a closed season.

I meant any tractor not just slurry tankers.

I have edited original post for clarity 

Edited by GUMPY
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2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I thought that's the way you are suppose to do it.

 

One for the maths experts who can still do old money. If the boat you are overtaking is doing 2mph and you are doing 3 mph how far do you need to travel before you are a full boat length ahead of them?

At that speed difference you probably won't get past as they will get sucked along and end up stuck alongside.

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5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I thought that's the way you are suppose to do it.

 

One for the maths experts who can still do old money. If the boat you are overtaking is doing 2mph and you are doing 3 mph how far do you need to travel before you are a full boat length ahead of them?

 

Depends how long each boat is, Shirley. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, IanD said:

Quite a long way -- they really need to slow down to less than 2mph and/or you need to be going faster than 3mph (if that's possible).

 

With only 1mph speed difference (about 1.5fps) and assuming 20' clearance before pulling out and after passing (don't see why a full boat length is needed?) an overtake with 70' boats will take about two minutes, in which time the overtaker will have travelled 180 yards (in old money), as opposed to 60 yards in 40 seconds if the overtaken boat stops...

 

Which also means if there's a boat coming the other way, it needs to be about two furlongs away when you start the manoeuvre to avoid panic... 🙂

Or, rather simpler for mental arithmetic, the overtaking boat needs to advance by 180 feet relative to the overtaken boat and since the slower is travelling at one third less speed, it is 180 yards thanks to the imperial system.

Any oncoming boat probably needs to be more than 220 yards ahead as that would require it to be moving much slower than either of the others.

In most cases, the overtaken boat needs to cooperate by slowing briefly 

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23 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

 

 

 

 

Generally the boat being overtaken slows right down, its unwise not to and isnt much different in time it takes to get anywhere but it certainly takes much less time to be overtaken. This could be why folk are objecting to shallow canals etc. Slow right down to slow tickover, move over, aim to the bank and you will be pulled back into the middle. If you go at any speed when being overtaken then you are asking for trouble. 

 

 This isnt a car being overtaken scenario. By several peoples suggestions on here they may tend to dawdle, so a slower dawdle to let someone past isnt asking much.

 

I fear some on here maybe the sort of person that deliberately speed up when being overtaken by another car. 

 

I suppose I'd better re-iterate before I start that when caught up by a boat going faster I will invariably stop to let them go past (before the usual suspects accuse me of trying to force others to travel at a slow pace), I've even been known to let Hire Boaters go ahead of me at locks since I'm in no rush😱

 

Thinking back however to the first time I hired a narrow boat, my first impression on the Saturday was along the lines of ,"Jeez, It's going to take forever to get anywhere at this speed", by the Monday I'd grown out of that mindset towards thinking,"You know what? this is the ideal speed". However you slice it, a narrowboat is going to be a very slow way of getting from A to B (other options are available, you could probably cycle the towpath at 3 times the speed you will ever do on the boat;)). I think that canals were once described as 'The fastest way to slow down'.

 

To add further controversy, you also need to consider how much YOU are responsible for the slowness of the boat in front. When shifting an 18 ton, 60' narrow boat through a shallow, narrow canal you will be drawing water from quite a long way ahead of you. Any observant fisherman (a rare breed) will see this by watching his float and can see the direction an oncoming boat is approaching from by his float being drawn in that direction, even when the boat in question is a long, long way away. You will also notice that as you travel along the canal the water level alongside your boat drops by a couple of inches as you pass by. I had a practical demonstration on one of my early forays onto the Llangollen Canal, passing through the trough of the Pontcylsyllte Aqueduct (no overtaking, obviously) when the muppet in the boat behind got right up my stern. The effect was that he was drawing the water from under my boat and neither of us were going anywhere fast. I tried to explain that he needed to move further back, but I don't think he really 'got it'.

 

As I've said my approach is, because overtaking is generally a PITA, if I catch up with a slower boat, whilst still over 100 yards behind, I will see if I can match their speed, and if I can, I will stay where I am (100 yards behind). The real problem arises when I cannot match their speed because it is slower than my boat is capable of travelling at.

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3 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The real problem arises when I cannot match their speed because it is slower than my boat is capable of travelling at.

That is the really frustrating bit when you have to keep going out of gear or bursting reverse to try to stop catching them up, then when they get even slower at a bridge 'ole it is even more annoying.

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20 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

The context was that the correct thing to do is to slow down significantly and move to the right but not to stop, which is fine if that's the towpath side but if it's the offside then it can be problematic. Hence I might prefer to move to the left in which case I'm putting myself on the wrong side and at risk if a boat comes the other way so I might choose to stop depending on the circumstances.

Way back in the mists of time when I had access to someone who ought to know, I was taught to 'invite' (if I believed it wise so to do) a boat behind to pass on the right, but another view was that the overtaker should always use the off side (ie away from the towpath). Of course that is often the hardest to use but the idea was that if they did not like it then they could always stay behind. Overtaking anywhere near a lock was considered bad form in any case, certainly if near enough that  the next lock was not cleared before the overtaken boat arrived. 

2 hours ago, Tacet said:

Or, rather simpler for mental arithmetic, the overtaking boat needs to advance by 180 feet relative to the overtaken boat and since the slower is travelling at one third less speed, it is 180 yards thanks to the imperial system.

Any oncoming boat probably needs to be more than 220 yards ahead as that would require it to be moving much slower than either of the others.

In most cases, the overtaken boat needs to cooperate by slowing briefly 

Unlikely that the overtaker will maintain that difference whilst passing.

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7 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Way back in the mists of time when I had access to someone who ought to know, I was taught to 'invite' (if I believed it wise so to do) a boat behind to pass on the right, but another view was that the overtaker should always use the off side (ie away from the towpath). Of course that is often the hardest to use but the idea was that if they did not like it then they could always stay behind. Overtaking anywhere near a lock was considered bad form in any case, certainly if near enough that  the next lock was not cleared before the overtaken boat arrived. 

Unlikely that the overtaker will maintain that difference whilst passing.


Overtaking on the offside makes sense, that was my earlier point about when I might stop. But I thought that the correct way was for the overtaking boat to go to the left I.e. into the stream of oncoming traffic, as that’s where the jeopardy is.

 

I’m sure I picked that up from some publication but I couldn’t say where off the top of my head.

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This morning's dawdle, queue of four at a lock, first boat goes down on half a paddle... "We don't like to rush". Hey ho...

Morning started with me being glared at because (at a paired lock) I had the temerity to go into the full lock instead of waiting for the boat in front to fill an empty one, because there was a bit of weed in front of the full one.

I think boaters are definitely getting odder .

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3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

This morning's dawdle, queue of four at a lock, first boat goes down on half a paddle... "We don't like to rush". Hey ho...

Morning started with me being glared at because (at a paired lock) I had the temerity to go into the full lock instead of waiting for the boat in front to fill an empty one, because there was a bit of weed in front of the full one.

I think boaters are definitely getting odder .

 

I've never understood those who only open a bottom paddle half way and there does seem to be quite a few of them about.

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1 hour ago, IanM said:

 

I've never understood those who only open a bottom paddle half way and there does seem to be quite a few of them about.

Some of those who I have met doing this say that they were told by the hire company to do this. It may be that they only heard part of what was said, it may be that the 'tutor' was mistaken. It may also be an attempt to simplify the things that newbies need to look out for: it does no 'harm' to go slower than needed whilst it some places, whacking a top paddle straight up could cause a real problem.

 

As with learning most things, it is usually best to start with a restricted set of conditions and gradually learn when to widen the boundaries, hopefully not too dangerously!

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4 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Some of those who I have met doing this say that they were told by the hire company to do this. It may be that they only heard part of what was said, it may be that the 'tutor' was mistaken. It may also be an attempt to simplify the things that newbies need to look out for: it does no 'harm' to go slower than needed whilst it some places, whacking a top paddle straight up could cause a real problem.

 

As with learning most things, it is usually best to start with a restricted set of conditions and gradually learn when to widen the boundaries, hopefully not too dangerously!

 

Yes I think you are probably right. It is a bit sad that people don't observe and learn, but it is part of the modern world where people don't really comprehend what is going on around them. Head full of the Facebook and Instragram probably.

What should happen is: Get to a flight of locks, cautiously open a paddle. Nothing much happens (Atherstone) so next lock, be less cautious until by the 4th lock you are just whacking the paddles up with nothing much happening. Or Trent&Mersey, cautiously open a paddle - wow, there is a lot of forward suction, continue to be cautious.

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8 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Some of those who I have met doing this say that they were told by the hire company to do this. It may be that they only heard part of what was said, it may be that the 'tutor' was mistaken. It may also be an attempt to simplify the things that newbies need to look out for: it does no 'harm' to go slower than needed whilst it some places, whacking a top paddle straight up could cause a real problem.

 

As with learning most things, it is usually best to start with a restricted set of conditions and gradually learn when to widen the boundaries, hopefully not too dangerously!

 

You're probably right there.  I've met a couple of hire boaters panicking about being too close too the bottom gates going up as the hire company told them not to get too close to the top cill when going down.  They had assumed it applied to the bottom gates going up.

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12 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Some of those who I have met doing this say that they were told by the hire company to do this. It may be that they only heard part of what was said, it may be that the 'tutor' was mistaken. It may also be an attempt to simplify the things that newbies need to look out for: it does no 'harm' to go slower than needed whilst it some places, whacking a top paddle straight up could cause a real problem.

 

As with learning most things, it is usually best to start with a restricted set of conditions and gradually learn when to widen the boundaries, hopefully not too dangerously!

 

I was only ever told by hire co's to initially lift the paddles half way and subsequently lift them fully. Never been told to only lift them half way for the whole of the lock fill.

 

I suspect some hirers haven't been listening correctly.

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32 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

Yes I think you are probably right. It is a bit sad that people don't observe and learn, but it is part of the modern world where people don't really comprehend what is going on around them. Head full of the Facebook and Instragram probably.

What should happen is: Get to a flight of locks, cautiously open a paddle. Nothing much happens (Atherstone) so next lock, be less cautious until by the 4th lock you are just whacking the paddles up with nothing much happening. Or Trent&Mersey, cautiously open a paddle - wow, there is a lot of forward suction, continue to be cautious.

Likewise I have had a hirer leave a lock and close the gate while I was waiting to come in. The yard told them to ALWAYS close the gates when they left the lock

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2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

This morning's dawdle, queue of four at a lock, first boat goes down on half a paddle... "We don't like to rush". Hey ho...

Morning started with me being glared at because (at a paired lock) I had the temerity to go into the full lock instead of waiting for the boat in front to fill an empty one, because there was a bit of weed in front of the full one.

I think boaters are definitely getting odder .

One of the previous BCN challenges ended up at the Titford Pump House. Following major problems at the factory flight and delays at the Walsall, there was a VERY large number of boats approaching the Crow at lunchtime on the Sunday.

One idiot on a 45-50ft boat decided to descend and insisted on less than half a paddle open only..

This lasted until the crew of Tawny Howl approached and an evil look in the eye of RWLP decided the future of said boat and skipper.

UP shot the paddles, and swiftly down went the boat. He did insist on staying in the locks though, and forced 70 footers to move over between the locks.

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On 24/05/2023 at 12:47, mrsmelly said:

1973 was a very good year for boating. I was on the boat shown on my profile picture, it had a big gun on the front and a draught of 17 feet so I doubt it would get far along the great ouse. 30,000 horsepower used to move it along quickly though, no dawdlers allowed 😃

 

It certainly was - it was the year of my first canal holiday, although my grandparents had taken me on the Rivers Cam and Great Ouse in the early 60's, but I was too young to appreciate much of those holidays.

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Likewise I have had a hirer leave a lock and close the gate while I was waiting to come in. The yard told them to ALWAYS close the gates when they left the lock

 

And in a similar vein, I once arrived at a lock set against me, far end gates open and a hire boat approaching. Instead of cruising straight in, they stopped on the landing stage and put the kettle on. WTF?!! 

 

On courteously enquiring what was going on, I was pleased I'd kept an open mind instead of being 'a bit blunt'. They'd been told by the hire company that if there's a boat already at a lock when they arrive, that boat has priority, and they were waiting for ME to turn the lock and go through. They too were thinking WTF why isn't he coming through?! Lol! 

 

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And in a similar vein, I once arrived at a lock set against me, far end gates open and a hire boat approaching. Instead of cruising straight in, they stopped on the landing stage and put the kettle on. WTF?!! 

 

On courteously enquiring what was going on, I was pleased I'd kept an open mind instead of being 'a bit blunt'. They'd been told by the hire company that if there's a boat already at a lock when they arrive, that boat has priority, and they were waiting for ME to turn the lock and go through. They too were thinking WTF why isn't he coming through?! Lol! 

 

 

 

 

I have had them walk down and ask me if I want to go first

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On 24/05/2023 at 15:10, IanD said:

 

Close following like that is the equivalent of a driver on a road coming up behind a slower vehicle and being unwilling to overtake even when safe -- many drivers seem to think that overtaking is bad driving nowadays -- but driving so close behind them that anyone who does want to get past has to overtake both vehicles at once.

 

IIRC the Highway Code says you should always leave a gap, but many drivers ignore this -- again, maybe taking the view that "If I can't/don't want to overtake, neither should anyone else". Which is exactly the dawdling boater attitude this thread is about... 😞

 

Indeed, the closest I've come to having an accident in the last 20 years was when I overtook a line of cars and as I pulled into the largish gap behind the lead car, because a car began to come the other way, the idiot in the lead car braked hard, considerably reducing the gap I was pulling into! :(

 

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On 24/05/2023 at 17:57, IanD said:

All true -- but there are still times when this isn't the case, like when you're close to the boatyard on the final afternoon of a two-week holiday and you get stuck behind dawdler-twit... 😉

 

Regardless of *why* the boat behind (speed merchant?) wants to go faster than the boat in front (dawdler?), if there's space and water to let them pass there's no reason not to do so, apart from pig-headedness... 😞

 

Only once has a boat caught me up and I let it pass, that was with our first shareboat. We were on the Coventry, a couple of miles out from the Atherstone Locks, when this GRP cruiser came barreling up behind me, so I slowed down, moved over and let him past. 

 

I lived to regret it, because despite having a large crew, my wife and I soon caught him up due to their poor locking technique.

 

I would still let a faster boat past if it caught me up, but now not if I'm within a mile or so of a lock flight.

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2 hours ago, cuthound said:

I lived to regret it, because despite having a large crew, my wife and I soon caught him up due to their poor locking technique.

 

 

I'd suggest it was because of the large crew.

 

My own observation is that the larger the crew, the less well-organdised they tend to be, and more random leapings off the boat/rope throwings/lookings around wondering what to do next instead of shutting the gates and opening the paddles tends to happen. 

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On 25/05/2023 at 16:00, Paul C said:

 

Does this by extension mean that you can't think of many places where boats in opposite directions could pass each other? The width of 2 boats is the same when they are facing same; or opposite; direction.

I say again, the hydrodynamics of boats passing in opposite directions is different from in the same direction. Also the time for which an accurate position to avoid a collision is much shorter in one case than the other. The traditional docey-do method of passing in opposing directions, esp if both deep drafted, does not work for overtaking.

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

I say again, the hydrodynamics of boats passing in opposite directions is different from in the same direction. Also the time for which an accurate position to avoid a collision is much shorter in one case than the other. The traditional docey-do method of passing in opposing directions, esp if both deep drafted, does not work for overtaking.

I kind of get the feeling that a few are viewing overtaking in a boat in the same fashion as they look at overtaking in a car, but as you have said the hydrodynamics is totally different. If I overtake in a car it isn't going to make the car that I'm passing go any slower whereas in a boat that is exactly what does happen. Two boats travelling in the same direction are drawing twice as much water in the same direction and both are in a shallower area of canal since they cannot both be in the middle, and by both drawing the water they are both making the canal even shallower. Two boats travelling in opposing directions are drawing from the same bit of water for a lot shorter period of time, and once they've passed the problem ceases to exist (as they effectively start pushing water back up the canal towards one another).

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