A polite plea to dawdlers.

[Mike Todd]

14 hours ago, Rob-M said:

Sometimes that isn't an option.  Having just one day to get the boat from A to B limits the time available to waste sat behind someone wanting to plod along.

I suspect that almost all of those working on a canal boat are professional boat movers. I which case, better to price in the cost of the known average speed (like sat vav/Google Maps will do) rather than risk high blood pressure.

 

It is a rare occurrence, one that many/most boaters will be unaware of, and there is no way to distinguish between those with a commercial rather than leisure reason to push on. It is also not easy to work out whether the following boat actually knows anything about overtaking - I will only invite an overtake if I can reasonably see that it is safe to do so, not always visible to the follower (eg oncoming or moored boats, other obstructions, width limits etc)

[Wanderer Vagabond]

7 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I suspect that almost all of those working on a canal boat are professional boat movers. I which case, better to price in the cost of the known average speed (like sat vav/Google Maps will do) rather than risk high blood pressure.

 

It is a rare occurrence, one that many/most boaters will be unaware of, and there is no way to distinguish between those with a commercial rather than leisure reason to push on. It is also not easy to work out whether the following boat actually knows anything about overtaking - I will only invite an overtake if I can reasonably see that it is safe to do so, not always visible to the follower (eg oncoming or moored boats, other obstructions, width limits etc)

The funny thing when people moan about those going slowly is that the difference we are talking about is the difference between 2mph and 4mph and however one slices it, both speeds are slow. The purpose of the canal boat is the journey, not the destination (if it were, then travelling by quicker transport would be the way to go). As I said, if someone in front of me is travelling at a speed my boat is capable of keeping down to whilst still in drive, I have no problem staying behind them and continuing to admire the scenery, it only becomes a problem if their boat seems to be driven by a 4 inch propeller.

[nicknorman]

8 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I suspect that almost all of those working on a canal boat are professional boat movers. I which case, better to price in the cost of the known average speed (like sat vav/Google Maps will do) rather than risk high blood pressure.

 

It is a rare occurrence, one that many/most boaters will be unaware of, and there is no way to distinguish between those with a commercial rather than leisure reason to push on. It is also not easy to work out whether the following boat actually knows anything about overtaking - I will only invite an overtake if I can reasonably see that it is safe to do so, not always visible to the follower (eg oncoming or moored boats, other obstructions, width limits etc)

There are loads of reason why a boat following a slow boat might have time constraints. Most of which are none of the business of the boat in front unreasonably holding up progress and refusing to allow overtaking, but for example a hire boat needing to make the return time, a private boat with a medical or other appointment, a need to make a flight or train home etc etc.

 

If you are someone who never has any time constraints in your life then you are lucky but equally someone who probably doesn’t have much going on in their life and is not using their one life to its fullest extent.

 

I do of course agree that one should only encourage overtaking when it is sensible to do so, no moored boats, blind corners, narrow bits etc. That is an obvious concept that didn’t really need mentioning and is not a justification for generally resenting and disallowing overtaking anywhere.

[Machpoint005]

15 hours ago, noddyboater said:

Look behind you more often.

When you see a boat has appeared and is getting closer, move over,  let them past.

There's a chance they might actually be using the canal for what it was made for. 

Thank you. 

 

Siga-siga.

 

 

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The funny thing when people moan about those going slowly is that the difference we are talking about is the difference between 2mph and 4mph and however one slices it, both speeds are slow. The purpose of the canal boat is the journey, not the destination (if it were, then travelling by quicker transport would be the way to go). As I said, if someone in front of me is travelling at a speed my boat is capable of keeping down to whilst still in drive, I have no problem staying behind them and continuing to admire the scenery, it only becomes a problem if their boat seems to be driven by a 4 inch propeller.

The canals are primarily a transport system. I am not advocating speeding and eg creating a breaking wave, but equally there is no virtue in going as slow as possible and causing frustration to people behind who just want to go at a normal speed. You say there is not much difference between 2mph and 4 mph but in fact there is a huge difference. A journey that would take 1 day at 4 mph, will take 2 days at 2mph and some people have busy lives that don’t allow for an extra day to be taken.

 

If you want to go at 2mph then fine, but don’t force everyone else to do it.

[Stroudwater1]

10 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 A lot of canal users don't appreciate that it isn't easy to overtake.

 

I wonder if that is part of the reason, the boat maybe going slow as they aren't overly confident  may have let a boat past once or twice and been frightened off as the overtaking boat headed straight towards theirs and their boat got sucked towards the overtaking boat. They must have a suction bowthruster perhaps.

 

The only time I really have kept very far back was a guy with visibility limited by cans of stella going so slowly I could only assume that his boat was fueled by it too. As he went past us moored up he was cussing randomly. It was rather a worry  as it took a long time to get to our home mooring and the night was drawing in by the time we got there. By the sound of some on here we shouldn't have gone the 1 hour out and 3 hours back for the day to clean her up for the season. 

 

 

[Machpoint005]

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

A journey that would take 1 day at 4 mph, will take 2 days at 2mph and some people have busy lives that don’t allow for an extra day to be taken.

 

That's the attitude of someone who blasts away from the traffic lights, then comes to a grinding halt at the next at red.

 

Your speed on the canal is also governed by the number of locks, other movable structures, blind bends, the enemy coming through bridge 'oles, etc. The real difference between 2mph and 4mph is much less than the perceived difference.

 

σιγά-σιγά

 

 

[mrsmelly]

12 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Anyone got behind President and Kildare over the years

I have been behind a certain well known acting couple several times. Never hassled them but had to keep going in to neutral and holding well back lol. Eventualy she would glance back and beckon us past with a smile, last time she did that he drove the boat straight up the bank. The dreadful boat handling seen on a certain tv series was not for show, they realy were like that  I spose they no longer boat? 

[Captain Pegg]

Reasons why you might be on a schedule:

 

1. You're on a hire boat

2. Your time is money

3. Your client wants to get their boat on brokerage for the coming weekend's viewings

4. You have another booking the next day

5. You have a booked passage

6. You're on annual leave from work

7. You've arranged to meet a friend for a day's boating

8. You have a table reservation at a pub

9. You need to catch a local bus that runs irregularly to get home

10. You have a train specific ticket to get home

11. You want to get home today because you've got a family (and you've given them an indication of when to expect you out of courtesy)

12. You have arranged a crew change (common for volunteer crews)

13. You're taking part in the BCN Challenge (the only time I've been encouraged to get a move on by a moored boat)

 

These things can apply in multiple for any one journey and you can't plan them all conservatively otherwise you'll end kicking your heels and wasting your own and other people's time. It seems there are folk that don't realise that not every boat crew is a full single household.

 

I plan and price all my professional journeys on CanalPlan defaults. I can generally marginally better them on narrow canals but struggle to maintain them on broad canals. Sometimes I have help but my base assumption is I'll be single handing.

 

For personal journeys I'll use a bespoke plan based on what I've acheived in the past and it will always better CanalPlan defaults on narrow canals.

 

Progress doesn't generally come through speed as I find the average speed (net of locks) for a journey on any of the main narrow canals doesn't vary much. It's a function of the number of hours you put in and your effort and efficiency in working locks.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that following a boat or being followed is a pain because it doesn't allow you to cruise in a natural and relaxed manner. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

[snip] -- but agreed 100%

 

But that doesn't change the fact that following a boat or being followed is a pain because it doesn't allow you to cruise in a natural and relaxed manner. 

 

 

Which is the point -- having one boat holding another up is stressful for both dawdler (having to look behind all the time) and follower (having to watch ahead/slow down/drop out of gear all the time).

 

And completely unnecessary and pointless -- if a boat comes up behind you let them past when there's space to do it, it's not your job to be the "speed police" or tell other people how they should be boating.

 

I suspect that people who don't move over are the same ones who sit in the overtaking lane of motorways at 70mph when the other lane is empty... 😉

Edited May 24, 2023 by IanD

[jonathanA]

13 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Reasons why you might be on a schedule:

 

1. You're on a hire boat

2. Your time is money

3. Your client wants to get their boat on brokerage for the coming weekend's viewings

4. You have another booking the next day

5. You have a booked passage

6. You're on annual leave from work

7. You've arranged to meet a friend for a day's boating

8. You have a table reservation at a pub

9. You need to catch a local bus that's runs irregularly to get home

10. You have a train specific ticket to get home

11. You want to get home today because you've got a family (and you've given them an indication of when to expect you out of courtesy)

12. You have arranged a crew change (common for volunteer crews)

13. You're taking part in the BCN Challenge (the only time I've been encouraged to get a move on by a moored boat)

 

These things can apply in multiple for any one journey and you can't plan them all conservatively otherwise you'll end kicking your heels and wasting your own and other people's time. It seems there are folk that don't realise that not every boat crew is a full single household.

 

I plan and price all my professional journeys on CanalPlan defaults. I can generally marginally better them on narrow canals but struggle to maintain them on broad canals. Sometimes I have help but my base assumption is I'll be single handing.

 

For personal journeys I'll use a bespoke plan based on what I've acheived in the past and it will always better CanalPlan defaults on narrow canals.

 

Progress doesn't generally come through speed as I find the average speed (net of locks) for a journey on any of the main narrow canals doesn't vary much. It's a function of the number of hours you put in and your effort and efficiency in working locks.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that following a boat or being followed is a pain because it doesn't allow you to cruise in a natural and relaxed manner. 

 

 

 

 

to which I'd add that you may have already used up your 'contingency' time due to 

 

1. mechanical/electrical failures - happens to the best maintained boats

2. CRT closures/delays/working parties /lock or swing bridge faults

3. queues at locks/waterpoints/service blocks

4. helping out other boaters (e.g towing off grounded boats, instructing hire crews on lock operations etc.)

5. bad weather 

 

sure there are plenty of others too

 

 

 

[Hudds Lad]

If someone comes up behind me i'll let them by as soon as i can, i don't want the stress of wondering what they're gonna do next, i've no time for people who try to aggressively pass without asking or seeing its appropriate to do so.

I've only been "stuck" behind boats a handful of times i can remember, one was the trip boat, one was a couple who'd bought the boat that week and were inept/petrified of scratching the paint, one was a boatful of 20somethings who were so stoned they had no idea what speed they were going and stopped when the dog fell off the back and so did one of the crew trying to pull it out of the water.

 

[nicknorman]

50 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

That's the attitude of someone who blasts away from the traffic lights, then comes to a grinding halt at the next at red.

 

Your speed on the canal is also governed by the number of locks, other movable structures, blind bends, the enemy coming through bridge 'oles, etc. The real difference between 2mph and 4mph is much less than the perceived difference.

 

σιγά-σιγά

 

 

Yours is the attitude of the self-righteous who are adamant that they are going at the CORRECT speed and anyone wanting to go at a different speed is to be despised.

 

However there are plenty of days when there are no locks, or locks whose transit time is predictable and short. There can be many miles between locks and whilst in fact it’s highly unlikely that one can actually manage 4 mph (in our boat, anyway) there is still a big difference between 3mph and 2 mph in terms of a day’s cruising to a planned destination. But anyway, why be the arse who likes to hold other people up and cause them frustration? I just don’t get it.
But then again, the same sort of people who “know their rights” and will happily explore the full extent of 8 to 8 noisy frame genny running without the tiniest pang of guilt as they spoil an otherwise peaceful rural visitor mooring for everyone else.

 

Oh and just on the traffic lights thing, whilst I don’t drive in an area with many traffic lights, I have noticed that some folk severely dawdle away from the lights, leaving a huge gap and barely reach 30mph in the first 1/4 mile. Which means that those further back in the queue don’t get over on the green when they otherwise would have done. General traffic congestion increased, more frustration, more fuel wasted etc but of course the chap in front who can’t find the accelerator is oblivious to all that and even it he wasn’t, it’s doubtful he would care at all.

 

Traffic light departures, just like canal cruising speeds, are best at a happy medium, not too fast and not too slow, going with the general flow of other people.

[Captain Pegg]

25 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

to which I'd add that you may have already used up your 'contingency' time due to 

 

1. mechanical/electrical failures - happens to the best maintained boats

2. CRT closures/delays/working parties /lock or swing bridge faults

3. queues at locks/waterpoints/service blocks

4. helping out other boaters (e.g towing off grounded boats, instructing hire crews on lock operations etc.)

5. bad weather 

 

sure there are plenty of others too

 

 

 

 

Absolutely, and the thing with contingency is that theoretically you set it at the most likely outcome but in reality the supposed most likely outcome is actually the average of what really happens which is invariably 'all or nothing'.

 

Funnily enough earlier in the day that I met the aforementioned boat at Audlem I'd spent 20 minutes rescuing and retying an ABC hire boat from the offside at Market Drayton. I wasn't in so much of a hurry that I didn't spare the time to do that. It took a whole two boats to remove their pins. I know that because they were in front of me at Tyrley locks.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[Tacet]

12 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I dislike holding people up. Why would you want to? Telemachus is deep drafted and thus fairly slow on shallow canals, so if anyone is approaching from behind my first thought is “when can I pull over to let them pass?”. I just can’t understand why it would be any other way unless one enjoyed exercising control over other people. Plenty of it about though, it seems!

 

On the overtaking point, when I was 18 we took my friend’s dad’s narrowboat to Ely for the IWA rally. Cruising along one of the ML (dead straight for miles) drains, a working boat came up behind fast. I was driving and reduced the 3 pot air cooled lister to idle. He came blasting past but picked us up on his wave and we surfed along at about 4mph, engine still at idle, riding his wave and stopping him overtaking. After a minute or so he grumped at me (sterns were neck and neck) “Aren’t you going to let me past?” To which I, as an annoying 18 year old, said “we’re at tickover, you need to go faster”. After receiving “the glare” I put it into idle reverse and he went off into the distance.

 

Funny, that is one of the few things I remember about that trip. That and Ely cathedral coming into view.

I went to Ely that year (1973) too, but much younger than you!

My recollection is the tidal doors of the Old Bedford River being winched open so that boats could pass onto the Great Ouse.  Initially there was quite a flow to surf through.

Went back to Salters Lode a few years ago and took a look.  The current route is from Well Creek of course.

[Midnight]

14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Anyone got behind President and Kildare over the years

No but many years ago the crew of 'President' came up as I was preparing a lock and claimed to be a working boat with priority rights. Then again just a few years ago a real working boat came up behind as I filled a lock and although the crew didn't ask I waved them through. 

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

I went to Ely that year (1973) too, but much younger than you!

My recollection is the tidal doors of the Old Bedford River being winched open so that boats could pass onto the Great Ouse.  Initially there was quite a flow to surf through.

Went back to Salters Lode a few years ago and took a look.  The current route is from Well Creek of course.

1973 was a very good year for boating. I was on the boat shown on my profile picture, it had a big gun on the front and a draught of 17 feet so I doubt it would get far along the great ouse. 30,000 horsepower used to move it along quickly though, no dawdlers allowed 😃

[Ronaldo47]

15 hours ago, nicknorman said:

He came blasting past but picked us up on his wave and we surfed along at about 4mph, engine still at idle, riding his wave and stopping him overtaking.

 

 

I read somewhere that the optimum speed in a shallow canal is the speed of a wave. So if you go at that speed, you sort of ride your own bow wave. Unless circumstances dictate otherwise, that is the speed I choose. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Mike Todd]

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

There are loads of reason why a boat following a slow boat might have time constraints. Most of which are none of the business of the boat in front unreasonably holding up progress and refusing to allow overtaking, but for example a hire boat needing to make the return time, a private boat with a medical or other appointment, a need to make a flight or train home etc etc.

 

If you are someone who never has any time constraints in your life then you are lucky but equally someone who probably doesn’t have much going on in their life and is not using their one life to its fullest extent.

 

I do of course agree that one should only encourage overtaking when it is sensible to do so, no moored boats, blind corners, narrow bits etc. That is an obvious concept that didn’t really need mentioning and is not a justification for generally resenting and disallowing overtaking anywhere.

There are far fewer places where overtaking is reasonable than most boaters imagine - so few have the  chance to try it anyway. It requires greater width and length than passing in opposite directions (as with roads)

4 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

 

I wonder if that is part of the reason, the boat maybe going slow as they aren't overly confident  may have let a boat past once or twice and been frightened off as the overtaking boat headed straight towards theirs and their boat got sucked towards the overtaking boat. They must have a suction bowthruster perhaps.

 

The only time I really have kept very far back was a guy with visibility limited by cans of stella going so slowly I could only assume that his boat was fueled by it too. As he went past us moored up he was cussing randomly. It was rather a worry  as it took a long time to get to our home mooring and the night was drawing in by the time we got there. By the sound of some on here we shouldn't have gone the 1 hour out and 3 hours back for the day to clean her up for the season. 

 

 

It is just a consequences of quite standard hydrodynamics. Many boaters will have experienced the same effect on narrow canals (or elsewhere on a wide beam) when going through bridge holes. Some the more spectacular are on Llangollen (which wasn't really built for (fast) boating anyway). At times, you almost come to a dead stop when nearly thorough - look carefully and see the water rushing by at the sides. In slightly wider arches, entering at speed slightly off centre will drag the boat sideways.

 

A lack of understanding about basic behaviour of moving water is at the root of many 'incidents'.

 

Overtaking is but rarely safe. Uninvited overtaking is never safe. (well, almost never!)

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Which is the point -- having one boat holding another up is stressful for both dawdler (having to look behind all the time) and follower (having to watch ahead/slow down/drop out of gear all the time).

 

And completely unnecessary and pointless -- if a boat comes up behind you let them past when there's space to do it, it's not your job to be the "speed police" or tell other people how they should be boating.

 

I suspect that people who don't move over are the same ones who sit in the overtaking lane of motorways at 70mph when the other lane is empty... 😉

Or perhaps know when it is not safe so to do.

[Captain Pegg]

10 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

There are far fewer places where overtaking is reasonable than most boaters imagine - so few have the  chance to try it anyway. It requires greater width and length than passing in opposite directions (as with roads)

 

I can cite numerous examples of overtaking and being overtaken in just the past few weeks. It needs a suitable place but it's not that hard if you're really trying.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[Mike Todd]

3 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Absolutely, and the thing with contingency is that theoretically you set it at the most likely outcome but in reality the supposed most likely outcome is actually the average of what really happens which is invariably 'all or nothing'.

 

Funnily enough earlier in the day that I met the aforementioned boat at Audlem I'd spent 20 minutes rescuing and retying an ABC hire boat from the offside at Market Drayton. I wasn't in so much of a hurry that I didn't spare the time to do that. It took a whole two boats to remove their pins. I know that because they were in front of me at Tyrley locks.

 

 

That's not contingency - that's good estimating. Projects started on your basis largely over-run.

34 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I read somewhere that the optimum speed in a shallow canal is the speed of a wave. So if you go at that speed, you sort of ride your own bow wave. Unless circimstances dictate otherwise, that is the speed I choose. 

. . . and well exceeds the speed limit. (If you are referring to a particular phenomenon)

Edited May 24, 2023 by Mike Todd

[nicknorman]

29 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

There are far fewer places where overtaking is reasonable than most boaters imagine - so few have the  chance to try it anyway. It requires greater width and length than passing in opposite directions (as with roads)

 

You seem to be at great pains to make the case that overtaking is somehow difficult and rarely practical. I wonder why? Of course there are plenty of stretches of windy narrow and shallow canal where overtaking isn’t really on, but equally plenty of stretches where it is. No-one expects to overtake on blind corners etc but I think it is reasonable to expect co-operation from a slow boat in front when circumstances permit.

Edited May 24, 2023 by nicknorman

[Guest]

Very tight for overtakes on the Aire & Calder....

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

43 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I read somewhere that the optimum speed in a shallow canal is the speed of a wave. So if you go at that speed, you sort of ride your own bow wave. Unless circumstances dictate otherwise, that is the speed I choose. 

Yes, I think I do pretty much the same.

I think, if I understand you right.

When you get that nice gentle wave and the boat feels to be swimming just perfect.

We’re not talking a breaking wave here, so I don’t think it’s as bad as it may sound to others.

On wide stretches the wave has pretty much died by time it gets to bank. 

 

[IanD]

4 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

There are far fewer places where overtaking is reasonable than most boaters imagine - so few have the  chance to try it anyway. It requires greater width and length than passing in opposite directions (as with roads)

It is just a consequences of quite standard hydrodynamics. Many boaters will have experienced the same effect on narrow canals (or elsewhere on a wide beam) when going through bridge holes. Some the more spectacular are on Llangollen (which wasn't really built for (fast) boating anyway). At times, you almost come to a dead stop when nearly thorough - look carefully and see the water rushing by at the sides. In slightly wider arches, entering at speed slightly off centre will drag the boat sideways.

 

A lack of understanding about basic behaviour of moving water is at the root of many 'incidents'.

 

Overtaking is but rarely safe. Uninvited overtaking is never safe. (well, almost never!)

Or perhaps know when it is not safe so to do.

I said "when there's space to do it". I've been stuck behing a dawdler-twit who was pootling along at idle where there were no moored boats and space/depth to pass, but who refused to move over because "it's not a race".

 

He didn't have to get the boat back close to the hire base (and for a booked meal) that evening, I did... 😞