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Accelarator handle coming loose


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Hello,

 

We have a barris shire 70 fitted on our boat and the accelerator handle keeps coming loose. I think the wrong bolts and washers have been used so am trying to source the correct ones.

 

Was also wondering if I should put lock tight ones on?

 

Cheers,

 

Malcolm

 

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I had a lever on a Teleflex come loose, there was a small grub screw that needed an allen key to tighten it up. The plastic cover had to come off, but this was years ago so can not recall the detail. Look on line for a manual for your control and it may show this sort of item and how to get to it.

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One of my boats has one of these side mount controls and the handle sometimes comes loose. Certainly potentially dangerous. As said above there is a grub screw. 

 

On mine it is directly below and the plastic cover stays in place. The grub screw is an allen head and it is well recessed so you need the long part of an allen key to get to it. 

 

IMG_20230523_033813.jpg

If you feel around where the arrow is pointing you should locate a small hole. 

 

Of course its probably a different type but may have a similar securing screw. 

Edited by magnetman
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I'm not for one moment trying to put the OP down, but is accelerator now the current word for that lever? I've always heard it called the throttle, or on most of our boats the speed wheel. I suppose that 'speed wheel' is in fact more conceptually allied to 'accelerator' than 'throttle' if I think about it. I've obviously not got enough to do today if I can waste time with such thoughts.  😏

 

Tam

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Just now, Tam & Di said:

I'm not for one moment trying to put the OP down, but is accelerator now the current word for that lever? I've always heard it called the throttle, or on most of our boats the speed wheel. I suppose that 'speed wheel' is in fact more conceptually allied to 'accelerator' than 'throttle' if I think about it. I've obviously not got enough to do today if I can waste time with such thoughts.  😏

 

Tam

 

As, in most cases, the lever controls both engine speed and the gear, I would have though "control lever" would be a better name for it.

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I had a similar issue with the Morse controller on a boat I moved a month ot two ago. On that particular model the lever assembly was fixed by a small Allen key that was central to the pivot point and behind the button that disengages drive. I had to remove the flexible rubber insert in the centre of the handle base and also a futher plastic insert behind that. I didn't have an Allen key to hand but was able to sufficiently tighten it with a small screwdriver to enable me to complete the journey.

 

It took me far longer to think through how to fix it than it did to enact the repair. That was probably because my mind was more pre-occupied by problems with the leaking coolant system prior to going onto a river section.

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1 hour ago, Tam & Di said:

I'm not for one moment trying to put the OP down, but is accelerator now the current word for that lever? I've always heard it called the throttle, or on most of our boats the speed wheel. I suppose that 'speed wheel' is in fact more conceptually allied to 'accelerator' than 'throttle' if I think about it. I've obviously not got enough to do today if I can waste time with such thoughts.  😏

 

Tam

Well, being proper pedantic, a throttle is something you get on a petrol engine to restrict (throttle) the air flow into the cylinders. Diesel engines generally don’t have a throttle to restrict airflow. They do have an rpm selector, a linkage that changes the spring loading on the governor to alter the speed at which the governor reaches equilibrium.

 

So I think we who routinely use the term “throttle” are just as sinful as someone calling it an “accelerator”, or more so!

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Being even more pedantic it is 'accelerator' not 'accelarator' !

 

It comes from cars. Diesel cars and petrol cars have accelerator pedals and so presumably do cars driven by elastic trickery. 

And cordless cars. 

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3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well, being proper pedantic, a throttle is something you get on a petrol engine to restrict (throttle) the air flow into the cylinders. Diesel engines generally don’t have a throttle to restrict airflow. They do have an rpm selector, a linkage that changes the spring loading on the governor to alter the speed at which the governor reaches equilibrium.

 

So I think we who routinely use the term “throttle” are just as sinful as someone calling it an “accelerator”, or more so!

 

Or they just crudely change the amount of fuel the injection pump delivers each time, much simpler than a governor...

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

Or they just crudely change the amount of fuel the injection pump delivers each time, much simpler than a governor...

I don’t think there are any diesels engines that don’t have a governor other than perhaps something extreme ancient. Even a bollinder has a governor. Unlike a petrol engine, a diesel engine is unstable in rpm especially in neutral. Slightly too much fuel and it accelerates without limit (until something breaks or terminal velocity is reached) because as the rpm increases, so does the fuel flow. Each injection of fuel gives the same dose of fuel, but they come faster and faster. Ditto if slightly too little fuel, the rpm and fuel flow steadily decreases until it stalls.

  • Greenie 1
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27 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I don’t think there are any diesels engines that don’t have a governor other than perhaps something extreme ancient. Even a bollinder has a governor. Unlike a petrol engine, a diesel engine is unstable in rpm especially in neutral. Slightly too much fuel and it accelerates without limit (until something breaks or terminal velocity is reached) because as the rpm increases, so does the fuel flow. Each injection of fuel gives the same dose of fuel, but they come faster and faster. Ditto if slightly too little fuel, the rpm and fuel flow steadily decreases until it stalls.

 

i installed hundreds of diesels over my career and never came across one without a governor.

 

After witnessing one run away during testing, I always specified air shut off valves, which prevent excessive overspeeding by being sucked closed by the increased aspiration air flow. It is amazing just how quickly these stop a 50 litre V16 diesel when operated during testing. I never tested them more than once because I was afraid of damaging the engine or its mount.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

 

 

i installed hundreds of diesels over my career and never came across one without a governor.

 

After witnessing one run away during testing, I always specified air shut off valves, which prevent excessive overspeeding by being sucked closed by the increased aspiration air flow. It is amazing just how quickly these stop a 50 litre V16 diesel when operated during testing. I never tested them more than once because I was afraid of damaging the engine or its mount.

 

 

We had them on all our engines , some of them were triggered by gas detection or other alarms, om were just stand alone relying on the increase of air flow which would happen if they start breathing natural gas

  • Greenie 1
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Do common rail diesel engines have governors? Given that fuel injection timing and amount are controlled electronically it seems to me a (mechanical) governor would not be needed. 

 

Not checked this ! 

My perkins P4 diesel engine (1960s) speed control is a flap in the air intake actuated by a morse cable. Nothing to do with the high pressure fuel pump. 

 

It is like a throttle on a carburettor but I am unsure exactly how it works in terms of controlling speed on a diesel engine. 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Do common rail diesel engines have governors? Given that fuel injection timing and amount are controlled electronically it seems to me a (mechanical) governor would not be needed. 

 

Not checked this ! 

My perkins P4 diesel engine speed control is a flap in the air intake actuated by a morse cable. Nothing to do with the high pressure fuel pump. 

 

 

 

The P4 probably has a pneumatic governor, as did many such engines of that age. The throttle butterfly together with a pitot tube (not all have pitot tubes) creates a depression that acts on a diaphragm. The diaphragm tries to decrease the fuel delivery, while the governor spring tries to increase it. The faster the engine runs, the greater the depression, so the fuel gets gradually cut off until the speed matches the butterfly position. I think you have one or two metal tubes running from the butterfly housing to the diaphragm chamber. Never loosen the pipes or unions while the engine is running. If you do it will run flat out and you may well get a big oily bang.

 

Other engines use a hydraulic governor where fuel pressure acts against a spring that is loaded by the speed lever on the pump.

 

So not all engines use a mechanical bob-weight governor, but I have yet to fins one without some form of governor.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

The P4 probably has a pneumatic governor, as did many such engines of that age. The throttle butterfly together with a pitot tube (not all have pitot tubes) creates a depression that acts on a diaphragm. The diaphragm tries to decrease the fuel delivery, while the governor spring tries to increase it. The faster the engine runs, the greater the depression, so the fuel gets gradually cut off until the speed matches the butterfly position. I think you have one or two metal tubes running form the butterfly housing to the diaphragm chamber. Never loosen the pipes or unions while the engine is running. If you do it will run flat out and you may well get a big oily bang.

I keep a 3 inch rubber ball handy for the air inlet in case of runaway. 

You are right. There is a diaphragm and air tubes. 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, magnetman said:

My perkins P4 diesel engine (1960s) speed control is a flap in the air intake actuated by a morse cable. Nothing to do with the high pressure fuel pump. 

I have seen this in a Sherpa van where it was to create an inlet manifold vacuum to operate the brake servo rather than control engine speed.

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Do common rail diesel engines have governors? Given that fuel injection timing and amount are controlled electronically it seems to me a (mechanical) governor would not be needed. 

 

Not checked this ! 

My perkins P4 diesel engine (1960s) speed control is a flap in the air intake actuated by a morse cable. Nothing to do with the high pressure fuel pump. 

 

It is like a throttle on a carburettor but I am unsure exactly how it works in terms of controlling speed on a diesel engine. 

 

 


They all have a governor. But not a mechanical governor, an electronic governor obvs. Part of the ECU. Or the FADEC if you want to be posh.

 

We have a Perkins V8 diesel in the winch at the gliding club, it has an inlet throttle. Not quite sure why but the brake servo argument doesn’t wash as it has air brakes operated by an air pump. Maybe it is to do with reducing pumping losses on the overrun? (Road vehicle context as it was a lorry engine).

Edited by nicknorman
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16 hours ago, nicknorman said:


They all have a governor. But not a mechanical governor, an electronic governor obvs. Part of the ECU. Or the FADEC if you want to be posh.

 

We have a Perkins V8 diesel in the winch at the gliding club, it has an inlet throttle. Not quite sure why but the brake servo argument doesn’t wash as it has air brakes operated by an air pump. Maybe it is to do with reducing pumping losses on the overrun? (Road vehicle context as it was a lorry engine).

 

Most modern standby generators use electronic governors to minimise the amount of "droop" needed when running two or more generator sets in parallel.

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10 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Most modern standby generators use electronic governors to minimise the amount of "droop" needed when running two or more generator sets in parallel.

Yes the good old PID control loop. Pretty hard to do without electronics.

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20 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I don’t think there are any diesels engines that don’t have a governor other than perhaps something extreme ancient. Even a bollinder has a governor. Unlike a petrol engine, a diesel engine is unstable in rpm especially in neutral. Slightly too much fuel and it accelerates without limit (until something breaks or terminal velocity is reached) because as the rpm increases, so does the fuel flow. Each injection of fuel gives the same dose of fuel, but they come faster and faster. Ditto if slightly too little fuel, the rpm and fuel flow steadily decreases until it stalls.

I stand corrected 🙂

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