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Best Stern for Single Handed


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3 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

👍 defo wouldn’t want 20ft plus of rope dragging behind my boat while moving😂

 

Nor would I. 

 

So I don't drop my lines in the water. It's surprisingly easy. 

 

 

 

You should try it sometime! 

 

 

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9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Nor would I. 

 

So I don't drop my lines in the water. It's surprisingly easy. 

 

 

 

You should try it sometime! 

 

 

I have that’s why my centre line isn’t long enough to reach my prop, a 17m centre line on a 17m boat sounds a bit too much and not the best idea if you do drop it in when the prop is turning.

Edited by BoatinglifeupNorth
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10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Yes. good to know it looked OK, I hand painted it out if the open durin 2018. Sold late 2019.

 

I agree that it is all down to personal preference, so that is what I have been trying to point out to the OP. Other people's opinions are just that, opinion, not hard facts. I know that I would have had to give the boat up sooner if the gas bottles were in the forepeak.

I manage to remove the empty bottle and the delivery guy finds it easy enough to deliver the full one to the bow , no problem.

I like having a balanced look to the boat which is bow locker, well deck, cabin, trad stern imho.

I have a fairly short tiller tube used without a wooden end piece, it looks after itself in locks, no danger of catching on the lock. I can steer by standing in front of the tiller, obviously 

Edited by LadyG
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9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Nor would I. 

 

So I don't drop my lines in the water. It's surprisingly easy. 

 

 

 

You should try it sometime! 

 

 

Much better practice to learn to not drop your line in rather than restrict the length.  I much prefer to have a centre line long enough to be useful from either end of the boat.

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As has been stated above, interior space is a major factor, especially for a full time liveaboard.

I feel that a cruiser stern would always be my personal favourite for a boat of say 55ft or more, because of the extra floor space for people and dogs to stand, sit, socialise etc. 

But on a boat of 50ft or less, it does become more of a close call. That stern, much as I love the space, does take up some interior space that could be really really useful. 

I guess the answer is to separate out the two factors of stern type and interior space (assuming your budget will stretch to a longer boat).

They are not co-dependent criteria at the point when you are buying your boat. In other words, you choose a boat big enough that it has the interior space you'll need, and you also make sure it has the stern type you prefer. 

Admittedly, a trad stern will allow some extra 'contingency' space in case you ever need it, and it seems like you can never get enough interior space on a narrowboat- so there is that. 

 

But as a full time liveaboard you'll probably be using a bike (either to reach your car, or as your full time transport), so the stern/boat choice might have to factor in a location to store the bike. The cratch might be ok, as long as there is something to attach a chain to, but the cratch does tend to get full of gubbins in its role as exterior store room/shed/garage, and maybe a place to put spare toilet cassettes, bags of household rubbish, broken stuff etc, until you reach a facilities point. Not to mention the bodies of the odd duck that you've savagely murdered (and don't try to tell me I'm the only one who savagely murders ducks on a weekly basis). 

 

I even had a broken bike plonked in my cratch for two weeks on the bridgewater, which was a right pain.

And when you're using a bike on an almost daily basis, its very handy to just chain it to the stern rail, as opposed to lifting it into the cratch (especially if its a 25kg ebike).

But again, it all depends how (and how often) you use a bike.

And how many ducks you kill.

 

Re getting onto the roof, you need to do that anyway, regardless of how you do locks. Sometimes you'll need to clean the roof, or the solar panels (which as a full time liveaboard you will definitely want). Or just to rearrange the half dozen bags of coal that might be up there during winter. 

I fitted a fold-up trucker's step on the rear cabin wall above the stern locker, and getting on and off the roof is easy using that. So for me, the semi trad having those seats is not a major advantage for getting onto the roof. 

 

So a lot depends on your personal preferences and lifestyle approach, but I imagine a single person would usually have enough interior space on a 58-60ft boat, even if the boat has a space-eating cruiser stern. And it'll still be short enough to cruise most of the system, if that is your aim.

 

This is very much a personal viewpoint, but I don't really put much weight in the advantage of the trad setup keeping your legs warmer when cruising in the winter.

If the cruiser stern suits you for other more important reasons, its the one to go for. Just wear thermal leggings under your trousers, and get a pair of fur-lined wellies. Or eat more lard and get fatter legs - there are options. 

As a liveaboard CCer, you'll probably have more flexibility to choose what days you cruise on, so you tend to avoid cruising on the days when its chucking down with rain or very windy. I cruised on the coldest days of the last two winters, when the previous night had lows of minus 9 degrees and the daytime temps never got above freezing- and it never changed my mind about wanting a cruiser stern. But I am a northerner, and its illegal up here to complain about the cold.   

 

(Disclaimer- no ducks were harmed in the making of this post. Any references to duck murder were entirely fictional and for entertainment purposes. And there are almost definitely no dead ducks in my cratch) 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

As has been stated above, interior space is a major factor, especially for a full time liveaboard.

I feel that a cruiser stern would always be my personal favourite for a boat of say 55ft or more, because of the extra floor space for people and dogs to stand, sit, socialise etc. 

But on a boat of 50ft or less, it does become more of a close call. That stern, much as I love the space, does take up some interior space that could be really really useful. 

I guess the answer is to separate out the two factors of stern type and interior space (assuming your budget will stretch to a longer boat).

They are not co-dependent criteria at the point when you are buying your boat. In other words, you choose a boat big enough that it has the interior space you'll need, and you also make sure it has the stern type you prefer. 

Admittedly, a trad stern will allow some extra 'contingency' space in case you ever need it, and it seems like you can never get enough interior space on a narrowboat- so there is that. 

 

But as a full time liveaboard you'll probably be using a bike (either to reach your car, or as your full time transport), so the stern/boat choice might have to factor in a location to store the bike. The cratch might be ok, as long as there is something to attach a chain to, but the cratch does tend to get full of gubbins in its role as exterior store room/shed/garage, and maybe a place to put spare toilet cassettes, bags of household rubbish, broken stuff etc, until you reach a facilities point. Not to mention the bodies of the odd duck that you've savagely murdered (and don't try to tell me I'm the only one who savagely murders ducks on a weekly basis). 

 

I even had a broken bike plonked in my cratch for two weeks on the bridgewater, which was a right pain.

And when you're using a bike on an almost daily basis, its very handy to just chain it to the stern rail, as opposed to lifting it into the cratch (especially if its a 25kg ebike).

But again, it all depends how (and how often) you use a bike.

And how many ducks you kill.

 

Re getting onto the roof, you need to do that anyway, regardless of how you do locks. Sometimes you'll need to clean the roof, or the solar panels (which as a full time liveaboard you will definitely want). Or just to rearrange the half dozen bags of coal that might be up there during winter. 

I fitted a fold-up trucker's step on the rear cabin wall above the stern locker, and getting on and off the roof is easy using that. So for me, the semi trad having those seats is not a major advantage for getting onto the roof. 

 

So a lot depends on your personal preferences and lifestyle approach, but I imagine a single person would usually have enough interior space on a 58-60ft boat, even if the boat has a space-eating cruiser stern. And it'll still be short enough to cruise most of the system, if that is your aim.

 

This is very much a personal viewpoint, but I don't really put much weight in the advantage of the trad setup keeping your legs warmer when cruising in the winter.

If the cruiser stern suits you for other more important reasons, its the one to go for. Just wear thermal leggings under your trousers, and get a pair of fur-lined wellies. Or eat more lard and get fatter legs - there are options. 

As a liveaboard CCer, you'll probably have more flexibility to choose what days you cruise on, so you tend to avoid cruising on the days when its chucking down with rain or very windy. I cruised on the coldest days of the last two winters, when the previous night had lows of minus 9 degrees and the daytime temps never got above freezing- and it never changed my mind about wanting a cruiser stern. But I am a northerner, and its illegal up here to complain about the cold.   

 

(Disclaimer- no ducks were harmed in the making of this post. Any references to duck murder were entirely fictional and for entertainment purposes. And there are almost definitely no dead ducks in my cratch) 

 

 

Thanks for a very comprehensive reply Tony. As you say most of the time I would be able to choose which days I was out cruising so that aspect is maybe not so important. I'll try hiring a semi-trad and trad to see what I make of them. Maybe that'll help refine my search or maybe I'll just realise that I could get by with any type of stern.

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I'm not sure it's worth worrying too much about stern types.

 

Just go look at boats that you think would appeal to you and buy the one that feels most right regardless of stern type. There will be times you're pleased you have whichever stern type your chosen boat came with. At other times you may wish you had a different stern type so you just need to remember that it's swings and roundabouts. 

 

The boat I bought just happened to have a trad stern and (to mention another discussion favourite) a cassette toilet. Most of the time I'm happy with both but occasionally I wish I had a cruiser stern, or a semi trad, or a pump out toilet, or a longer boat. Despite that I'm still very happy with the boat I bought for the vast majority of the time.

 

On the subject of centre lines I'm firmly in the camp that favours longer ones. Much of the stepping off I do on the approach to the bottom of a lock would not be possible with a shorter centre line so I would end up climbing on to the roof and up a slippery lock ladder far more often. I'm aware there is a risk of the line meeting the prop so I take extra care not to drop it and also have centre lines made from floating rope so that if I was careless enough to drop it there is a lower risk of a problem. I also try, as far as possible, to only step off with one of my two centre lines when the engine is in neutral.

 

Edited by Lily Rose
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38 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

Just go look at boats that you think would appeal to you and buy the one that feels most right regardless of stern type. There will be times you're pleased you have whichever stern type your chosen boat came with. At other times you may wish you had a different stern type so you just need to remember that it's swings and roundabouts. 

 

The boat I bought just happened to have a trad stern and (to mention another discussion favourite) a cassette toilet. Most of the time I'm happy with both but occasionally I wish I had a cruiser stern, or a semi trad, or a pump out toilet, or a longer boat. Despite that I'm still very happy with the boat I bought for the vast majority of the time.

 

I very much agree with this. Whatever boat you buy, there will be loads of things 'wrong' with it. Newbies tend to make a list of all the features they want and then spend ages looking for all of them present in one boat. Then when they find it, that boat doesn't 'speak to them' and so they carry on looking. Eventually they find a boat that screams "BUY ME" at them and they give up resisting and just buy it, despite it having few or none of the attributes they've been searching for. They go on the love the boat and discover half the features they wanted as newbies aren't necessary, and the other half they find ways to cope with anyway. 

 

The only exception to this in my own case was a boat with a pump-out bog. After spending £30 on tokens at the pump-out pontoon and finding the tank still full of, erm... <****>, we went and bought a cassette bog and removed the pump-out. 

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45 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

On the subject of centre lines I'm firmly in the camp that favours longer ones. Much of the stepping off I do on the approach to the bottom of a lock would not be possible with a shorter centre line so I would end up climbing on to the roof and up a slippery lock ladder far more often.

I find my ideal length is so that the line runs through the cleat  along the roof and just reaches the rear deck, this is of course on a Trad stern as that would be short on a cruiser. So yes it probably would get caught in the prop if it went overboard but that hasn't happened so far. 

To save scratching the roof I have taken to using a soft shackle to attach my centre lines to the eye.

 

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5 minutes ago, MtB said:

I very much agree with this. Whatever boat you buy, there will be loads of things 'wrong' with it. Newbies tend to make a list of all the features they want and then spend ages looking for all of them present in one boat. Then when they find it, that boat doesn't 'speak to them' and so they carry on looking. Eventually they find a boat that screams "BUY ME" at them and they give up resisting and just buy it, despite it having few or none of the attributes they've been searching for. They go on the love the boat and discover half the features they wanted as newbies aren't necessary, and the other half they find ways to cope with anyway. 

So true. After years of hiring and shareboating we knew exactly what we wanted. Semi-trad, pump-out, pullman dinette, off corridor bathroom. Current boat has none of these features and we couldn't be happier with it :) 

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16 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:


I’m amazed you are the only person that seems to have picked that up. Most folk probably rolled their eyes at the little spat and scrolled past the detail of the posts.

 

I’ve never seen a trad stern where you can’t stand in front of the arc of the tiller. The place that’s specifically provided for standing to steer is in front of the arc of the tiller. Obviously you can’t legislate for those folk that stand outside the hatch - and unfortunately they do exist - but I’m guessing @IanD may never have steered a trad.

You're guessing wrong -- I have, several of them... 😉

 

(and semi-trads, and cruisers (brrr...) -- and even a so-called "semi-cruiser" which I didn't like at all, especially getting on and off...)

 

If I was boating single-handed I'd have a trad stern. Since I plan to be boating with my wife -- and often with a couple of guests -- I went for a more sociable semi-trad, but done properly (many aren't) so the seats are comfortable to sit on. The "steerer's seat" (rearmost port side inside the semi-trad part) is higher than normal to make it better for steering from, and give lockable storage space for a folding bike. But I doubt you'd find any boats out there like this... 😉

Edited by IanD
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19 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

 

This is true. I refered up thread to my similar observations from when we boated.

 

However Ive also seen single handers working cruisers and semis. So obviously some find it suits them for whatever reason?

 

The curve ball for me is the OP's dog. A semi trad in that case, may just may be a better choice, just may.

 

Which is why hiring a trad with his dog to see how it works out is still the next best step. It has to work for him (and his dog of course) not anybody else.

 

I have boated with all three types of stern and a dog.

 

Which is best depends on the dog. If the dog is likely to take itself off when unsupervised or jump off a moving boat, then a trad, or semi-trad with rear doors is best because the dog can be locked into an open area, whereas with a cruiser it has to be locked in the cabin.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Loddon said:

A park bench on a tug deck gives you some where to sit without taking up too much room.

I've seen one somewhere 😉🤔😀

 Or patio furniture... 😅🤣

Edited by cuthound
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2 hours ago, IanD said:

You're guessing wrong -- I have, several of them... 😉

 

 

Where did you position yourself when steering the said traditional stern boats - given that you have not even seen one where you can stand or sit ahead of the tiller?

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26 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Where did you position yourself when steering the said traditional stern boats - given that you have not even seen one where you can stand or sit ahead of the tiller?

 

I think we already know the answer to that. 😉

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26 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

I think we already know the answer to that. 😉

You really shouldn't guess things you don't know about... 😉

 

Why do you think I haven't seen -- or steered -- one -- actually, several -- where you can stand in front of the tiller?

 

I get really tired of the CWDF "I know better than you" brigade sometimes, especially when this is based on zero evidence or knowledge... 😞

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Just now, IanD said:

I get really tired of the CWDF "I know better than you" brigade sometimes, especially when this is based on zero evidence or knowledge... 😞

 

Utterly priceless, just utterly priceless.

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On 20/05/2023 at 18:54, Rocket Rob said:

I'll have a look and see if one can be hired. There was also a guy at Calcutt who used to do experience days, think he may have had a trad

You mean Paul Smith? Yes he still does. I was with him this April. He has a Steve Hudson trad, very nice. Highly recommend the day! I’m definitely getting a trad…

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Ditch the dog.  Nobody needs a dog.  Find a partner instead if you need the company, there are plenty available.  Just compare the two options:

 

Food

D - Simple tastes.

P - More fussy but can cook yours for you.

 

Exercise

D - Must be done every day, rain or shine.

P - Can be done anytime you are both in the mood.

 

Poo

D - Fouls the universe which even with pickup is not left clean.

P - Poos in the bathroom but occupies it for more time than you would believe possible.

 

Hair

D - Leaves it everywhere

P - Requires expensive haircuts which must be admired.

 

Locks

D - Provides something to trip over when going to set the locks.

P - Tells you the trip is over 5 locks before you want to stop.

 

When Wet

D - Smells

P - Yells (its your fault its raining).

 

Steering

D - Demands excessive bank-visiting practice.

P - Very useful when you want a change.

 

Boat Design

D - Requires that you plan carefully the layout of the boat.

P - Tells you what you want the layout of the boat to be.

 

Stern

D - Complicated

P - Cruiser, obviously

 

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1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

Ditch the dog.  Nobody needs a dog.  Find a partner instead if you need the company, there are plenty available.  Just compare the two options:

 

Food

D - Simple tastes.

P - More fussy but can cook yours for you.

 

Exercise

D - Must be done every day, rain or shine.

P - Can be done anytime you are both in the mood.

 

Poo

D - Fouls the universe which even with pickup is not left clean.

P - Poos in the bathroom but occupies it for more time than you would believe possible.

 

Hair

D - Leaves it everywhere

P - Requires expensive haircuts which must be admired.

 

Locks

D - Provides something to trip over when going to set the locks.

P - Tells you the trip is over 5 locks before you want to stop.

 

When Wet

D - Smells

P - Yells (its your fault its raining).

 

Steering

D - Demands excessive bank-visiting practice.

P - Very useful when you want a change.

 

Boat Design

D - Requires that you plan carefully the layout of the boat.

P - Tells you what you want the layout of the boat to be.

 

Stern

D - Complicated

P - Cruiser, obviously

 

You missed out the obvious one... 😉

 

Cost

D -- Expensive 

P -- *Really* expensive

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15 minutes ago, IanD said:

 😉

 

I get really tired of the CWDF "I know better than you" brigade sometimes, especially when this is based on zero evidence or knowledge... 😞

Thanks Ian for making me smile 😀

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1 hour ago, haggis said:

Thanks Ian for making me smile 😀

Glad to be of service 🙂

 

For the record, I've probably spent a total of a couple of months or so on trad-sterned boats over the years -- liveaboard and hired, ranging from a trad-engined riveted 72', one with a Bolinder, a steamer, and several hire boats -- and all were usually steered from inside the rear doors, or sometimes from the stern outside the arc of the tiller if there was room. And if I was a single boater, I'd have a trad stern -- but I'm not, so I prefer something different... 😉

 

Over the last 40 years I've probably also tried out more different types of boats than many posters, including most types of hull, stern, propulsion, layout, toilets, beds, heating, fitout, decor -- and they all have advantages and disadvantages for different people, there's no "perfect" solution, everyone needs to decide what is best for them. Which is probably not what I would choose, and that's absolutely fine... 🙂

Edited by IanD
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25 minutes ago, IanD said:

Over the last 40 years I've probably also tried out more different types of boats than many posters, including most types of hull, stern, propulsion, layout, toilets, beds, heating, fitout, decor -- and they all have advantages and disadvantages for different people, there's no "perfect" solution, everyone needs to decide what is best for them. Which is probably not what I would choose, and that's absolutely fine... 🙂

 

Conclusion absolutely correct, which is why I get a bit anti when people try to say their own preference is the only correct one.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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59 minutes ago, IanD said:

You really shouldn't guess things you don't know about... 😉

 

Why do you think I haven't seen -- or steered -- one -- actually, several -- where you can stand in front of the tiller?

 

I get really tired of the CWDF "I know better than you" brigade sometimes, especially when this is based on zero evidence or knowledge... 😞

 

Because of what you posted at 1559 yesterday which other posters - myself included - clearly read as suggesting that you can't stand in front of the tiller on a trad.

 

Perhaps you'd like to clarify what you meant?  

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