Hot water options?

[Jak]

Hi all. I’ve been mulling over this for a long time, and was going back to the back catalogue of posts again. But still not sure of the answer. At least I am now clear what the question is!  I’ve a simple boat. Originally 12v only with a Squirrel stove and no rads. Happy with the heating as only a 47 foot boat and stove is close to the middle of the boat. No rads required. I added a simple 240v system with inverter and a few sockets. This also works well with 300w solar and my alternator to fill in the gaps in winter. 
What doesn’t work for me is hot water. At the moment is calorifier only and I need to run the engine daily for hot water, which is inconvenient and sub-optimal as I see it.  Options?

 

- I read a lot about boaters with diesel water heaters and understand I might use one to heat the calorifier tank. Sounded like a good option. Not hard to fit from the look of the kits I’ve seen, though appears to need a separate exhuast and some posters were critical about reliability and cost of maintenance. But I like the idea of running on a timer for an hour or so a day and looks like they run on 12v..

- Paloma / Morco open flue. Lots of boats my age (1989) have these fitted for instant hot water to taps and shower. Some say  they eat gas. And its not at all clear if they can be fitted by a boat safe gas engineer now. Or not clear to me anyway!  There are more advanced heaters without open flue, but I have power limitations and have read these need the sort of 240v I would not want to give. 
 

So whats’ the practical and realistically priced solution to supplement or replace the engine / calorifier set-up which just sucks!

 

Thanks  once more for your experience and advice 👍

 

Jak. 
 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Jak
Typo

[Arthur Marshall]

I have a Rinnai instant heater, not sure of the rules about fitting them now. It uses very little gas as long as you don't leave the pilot light on all the time - remarkable how much that wastes. Mine will only work when one tap's running, so you can't use a mixer tap in the shower but set the temperature at the unit, which isn't a problem.

[rusty69]

I have always found the use of the engine to heat water in a calorifier as a by-product of cooling and propulsion to be a fantastic solution on a boat that moves on a regular basis.

As is often the case with boaty type things though, it is nice to have an alternative setup, which not only offers more flexibility, but redundancy too. You have already touched on a couple of the more attractive solutions, one of which would require a separate coil in the calorifier (unless you are going to repurpose the engine coil).

Our setup uses a paloma instantaneous gas water heater,which I think is a fantastic device and also the engine heating a calorifier coil, which I also think is a great solution. These can be individually selected using an 'L' valve.That coupled with a 240V immersion (1kw in our case) gives a third option should you have access to shore power (or generator), and even the possibility of solar hot water heating in warmer months given enough excess solar capacity.

I suppose you could even investigate the possibility of adding a back boiler to the squirrel for use in the winter months. 

I guess, a lot will depend upon how you use your boat.

Anyway, I think you are probably on the right track with the gas heater or the webasto type solution, and have only written the above to try and bump your post in the hope that you may get an answer from more experienced members re retro fitting a morco or similar.

 

Good luck

[Jak]

Thanks for this rusty. I’d not thought about the need for another coil. And yes, do want to keep the engine heating which is a great system when cruising.  An instant hot water system like yours or Arthur’s sounds ideal.  But I am not clear on whether an open flue set-up can be retrofitted or whether I’d need a ”room sealed” set-up now…

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Jak said:

Thanks for this rusty. I’d not thought about the need for another coil. And yes, do want to keep the engine heating which is a great system when cruising.  An instant hot water system like yours or Arthur’s sounds ideal.  But I am not clear on whether an open flue set-up can be retrofitted or whether I’d need a ”room sealed” set-up now…

 

 

There is a concession allowed in the BSS for non-flue instananeous water heaters as there are no (has been no) realistic alternatives,

However, rumour has it that the BSS have now decided that there are plenty of flued heaters now 'commonly available' and they are reviewing the withdraw of the concession.

 

If you are gong to do it, then do it soon as the 'window of opportunity may be closing'.

 

The BSS rules that still applied state :

 

 

There is a growing recognition of the risks associated with the use of non room-sealed gas appliances when used in confined spaces such as boats. These risks include poisoning and suffocation to individuals on board from improperly flued and ventilated appliances. So new LPG appliances must be room sealed, except where room-sealing is not physically possible, i.e. cooking appliances.

There is one specific exception to this rule and this is for LPG instantaneous water heaters. Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances, and until such a time as a room-sealed direct replacement becomes easily available, British Waterways and the Environment Agency accept the continued installation of instantaneous water heaters on private boats. If you are changing your non-room sealed instantaneous water heater it's strongly recommended that you consider room sealed alternatives.

[David Mack]

A bit difficult to reconcile "There is a growing recognition of the risks associated with the use of non room-sealed gas appliances when used in confined spaces such as boats" with "Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances..."

[rusty69]

18 minutes ago, David Mack said:

A bit difficult to reconcile "There is a growing recognition of the risks associated with the use of non room-sealed gas appliances when used in confined spaces such as boats" with "Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances..."

Perhaps the "good previous safety record"  was not measured in the same way,and applied to the same demographic, as "the growing recognition of risks".

 

I certainly have not felt at any greater risk using an instataneous gas water heater than any other gas operated appliances, and have been using our one for 24 years. Given common sense, suitable ventilation and periodic maintenance they are pretty safe imho. Though it is possible my safety is not the main concern of the BSS.

 

However, rules are there   ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶n̶e̶y̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶r̶d̶ ̶p̶a̶r̶t̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶v̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶s̶o̶ to make all our lives safer and happier, so must be adhered to at all times.

Edited May 7, 2023 by rusty69

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

certainly have not felt at any greater risk using an instataneous gas water heater than any other gas operated appliances, and have been using our one for 24 years. Given common sense, suitable ventilation and periodic maintenance they are pretty safe imho. Though it is possible my safety is not the main concern of the BSS.

 

 

It has had only a positive effect on you, look at you now ........................

 

 

 

A good scrape down and a coat of keel black and you are 'better than new' !

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

A bit difficult to reconcile "There is a growing recognition of the risks associated with the use of non room-sealed gas appliances when used in confined spaces such as boats" with "Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances..."

Not at all. Banning them means more work for the boaty gas blokes, who have input into the BSS rules. The BSS has no real relationship to safety, and its original brief was to avoid danger to those outside the boat, not the owners. There obviously wasn't enough money to be made sticking to that, so now it covers a whole raft of irrelevance. It's turning into a jobsworths charter, where ignorant testers can bully boaters into unnecessary expense.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The BSS rules that still applied state :

 

 

There is a growing recognition of the risks associated with the use of non room-sealed gas appliances when used in confined spaces such as boats. These risks include poisoning and suffocation to individuals on board from improperly flued and ventilated appliances. So new LPG appliances must be room sealed, except where room-sealing is not physically possible, i.e. cooking appliances.

There is one specific exception to this rule and this is for LPG instantaneous water heaters. Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances, and until such a time as a room-sealed direct replacement becomes easily available, British Waterways and the Environment Agency accept the continued installation of instantaneous water heaters on private boats. If you are changing your non-room sealed instantaneous water heater it's strongly recommended that you consider room sealed alternatives.

 

Hi, this quotation seems to be from guidance relating to the 2002 (non-private) BSS guidelines (https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/requirements-examinations-certification/non-private-boat-standards/part-8-appliances,-flueing-ventilation/) - only relevant to the OP if he was asking about a non-private vessel. Seems like he was asking about a private boat?

 

4 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Banning them means more work for the boaty gas blokes, who have input into the BSS rules.

 

The BSS won't be banning open-flued instantaneous gas water heaters, because the relevant British Standard permits them (BS EN ISO 10239:2017 at clause 7.4.2) as long as they have an oxygen depletion device or similar (look it up). Furthermore, GSIUR (UK law) permits them in sleeping accommodation (so a boat) as long as they are less than 14kw (most are, don't buy a 30kw Chinese one). Note open-flued appliances can not be installed in a bathroom. People on here often quote the replacement 'exemption', which has it's root in PD 54823:2016 - this is factually incorrect guidance, given that ISO 10239 permits them. Someone made an error. 

 

Hope these basic facts help you choose whatever suits you best. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, watchfuleye said:

Hi, this quotation seems to be from guidance relating to the 2002 (non-private) BSS guidelines (https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/requirements-examinations-certification/non-private-boat-standards/part-8-appliances,-flueing-ventilation/) - only relevant to the OP if he was asking about a non-private vessel. Seems like he was asking about a private boat?

 

Try again.

 

It is mandatory for commercial boats, but leisure / private craft have the concession until alternatives are readily available.

 

 

From the BSS

 

Question : My customer wants to replace their LPG instantaneous water heater with a similar appliance - is that allowed?

Answer: All instantaneous LPG water heaters presented for examination by BSS Examiners are acceptable if they pass the BSS checks applicable to such appliances in Part 8.

The BSS does not specify the type of LPG appliances to be installed but we do recommend the installation of room-sealed LPG appliances suitable for boats. The BSS also strongly recommends the use of competent gas installers to carry out work on boat gas systems.

You can expect that competent gas fitters will follow the relevant installation standards - PD5482-3:2005 and ISO 10239:2008. Both of these standards say to install room-sealed LPG appliances if the appliance will be left unattended.

As well as being an installation standard PD 5482-3 is regarded as a 'maintenance' standard and contained in an Annex it goes on to give guidance on this subject to gas installers.  It says that like for like replacement would be acceptable if it was not possible to install a room sealed equivalent and if a risk assessment determined low risk.  The replacement instantaneous LPG water heater would have to have an input rating of less than 11.6 kW and befitted with a combustion products safety device.

In summary, replacing an instantaneous LPG water heater with a similar appliance is not subject to BSS requirements but unless the competent gas installer considers like for like replacement reasonable after a risk assessment, the customer may find it difficult to find an installer prepared to fit the appliance.   The customer is recommended to explore the potential for a room sealed replacement appliance.

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The BSS also strongly recommends the use of competent gas installers to carry out work on boat gas systems.

 

 

If they only "recommend" then, presumably, you could fit one yourself?

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

 

If they only "recommend" then, presumably, you could fit one yourself?

 

Yes, but if there is an accident with it, then you may have to prove to the satisfaction of the authorities that you were competent to do the job.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Yes, but if there is an accident with it, then you may have to prove to the satisfaction of the authorities that you were competent to do the job.

 

And, if there was an accident attributable to the installation, it would rather tend to suggest that you are incompetent.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is mandatory for commercial boats, but leisure / private craft have the concession until alternatives are readily available.

Nope, there is no such thing as a concession. Read the bit I wrote about the British Standard saying it is OK. That's the end of it; the BSS won't exceed the British Standard (and GSIUR). 

 

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Question : My customer wants to replace their LPG instantaneous water heater with a similar appliance - is that allowed?

This looks like is lifted from here https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/professionals/the-kiosk/the-tech-clinic/part-8-appliances-ventilation/#:~:text=Answer%3A All instantaneous LPG water,such appliances in Part 8. and is dated 2012. Since then, the British Standard was amended (2014, 2017). There is no point quoting this as it is hopelessly out of date. Quote the standard, and the latest BSS private boat requirements if you want to help the OP. 

 

You seem to be cutting and pasting various out of date (erroneous) guidance, and unfortunately this is coming across as you providing knowledgeable advice. As a well meaning amateur / helpful leisure boater that's great but it might be best to stick to giving advice about subjects you have detailed knowledge of, especially when quoting safety requirements. 

 

[rusty69]

It appears a similar conversation has already taken place.

 

OP, with all the conflicting advice, should you wish to go the instantaneous water heater route, perhaps best ask the BSS office direct, or a gas registered boat bod who is fluent with the latest regs and techno babble. 

 

I can see why you are confused, cos I am too. 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by rusty69

[Guest]

There was a lot of dubious / dated amateur input on that thread too. 

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, watchfuleye said:

Nope, there is no such thing as a concession. Read the bit I wrote about the British Standard saying it is OK. That's the end of it; the BSS won't exceed the British Standard (and GSIUR). 

 

A couple of points :

 

Yes, the information is taken from the LATEST guidance in the BSS, so any examiner or boater will be working towards what the BSS have stated.

 

You keep quoting the GSIUR, but do not mention that this only relates to boats used as (permanent) dwellings, not boats in use for leisure, even if it is 11 months of the year.

 

Maybe you'd care to explain your background ?

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, watchfuleye said:

There was a lot of dubious / dated amateur input on that thread too. 

Could I ask about your professional qualification on the subject please. 

 

It's very hard for me to determine who's words to believe, hence my suggestion to the OP

[rusty69]

2 hours ago, watchfuleye said:

There was a lot of dubious / dated amateur input on that thread too. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe you'd care to explain your background ?

 

It would appear......

 

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Could I ask about your professional qualification on the subject please. 

 

Not.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

 

 

 

It would appear......

 

Not.

 

He has been on the forum in the last half-hour but obviously there is no reqirement to answer any question, by any member, so, one should base make assumptions on a lack or response.

 

Obviously not had much to say for himself in the last 15 years since he joined - 2/12 rating.

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

He has been on the forum in the last half-hour but obviously there is no reqirement to answer any question, by any member, so, one should base make assumptions on a lack or response.

 

Obviously not had much to say for himself in the last 15 years since he joined - 2/12 rating.

That is true, but if he is a boat safety examiner/ part of the BSS/ and/or a gas registered boaty bod, it would have been useful for the OP to receive the wisdom from a professional, which is what he is implying he is.

[Jak]

This is all really interesting. I can see that you can buy referbished open flue heaters and I’m not residential, so perhaps for a simple older boat thats the way to go. I am just reading too many reports of problems with the various expensive diesel heaters and really do not need any rads, just more convenient hot water. 
 

I have a boat gas safe contact (connected up a new cooker a couple of months back) so will run it by him and see what he says. I’m hardly a “competant person” so shouldn’t take the risk of trying it DIY…

[rusty69]

19 minutes ago, Jak said:

This is all really interesting. I can see that you can buy referbished open flue heaters and I’m not residential, so perhaps for a simple older boat thats the way to go. I am just reading too many reports of problems with the various expensive diesel heaters and really do not need any rads, just more convenient hot water. 
 

I have a boat gas safe contact (connected up a new cooker a couple of months back) so will run it by him and see what he says. I’m hardly a “competant person” so shouldn’t take the risk of trying it DIY…

Difficult one innit. You may, of course, be reading about the problems with diesel water heaters simply because there are more of them in use.

 

Whilst I can highly recommend the old Paloma PH-53f, I am still far from certain whether you can have one fitted. There are also the calculations based on the cost of diesel v gas. Whilst I don't find the gas consumption excessive, it may be a factor depending on your gas bottle storage capacity/size. As Arthur said above, turning it off when not in use certainly saves a lot. We used to leave ours on 24/7, but now turn it off over night. I guestimate, by doing so, we make a gas bottle last a week longer than it did.

 

On the other hand, I also have a Rinnai 56es, which I would not recommend, simply because mine stopped working. That is not to say, they are no good.

Edited May 8, 2023 by rusty69

[Richard10002]

7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Yes, but if there is an accident with it, then you may have to prove to the satisfaction of the authorities that you were competent to do the job.

Agreed, but the principle seems to be that you "can" fit one yourself if you deem yourself competent.

 

As an aside and, as Alan* suggests, if there is no accident, then  you were actually competent.

 

*de Enfield