HVO is it available?

[peterboat]

20 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

cheaper than chucking your engine out and replacing with electric no?

It's not green or renewable its mostly made from Palm oil! The palm oil is obtained by destroying the rainforests which are the lungs of the world!

I bought a load when it was cheap not knowing the full story the white is nearly used up  the red will take a long while to be used, thankfully it lasts 10 years allegedly 

17 hours ago, dmr said:

 

The supplier that I have dealt with does provide documentation stating the fuel is renewable, and as long as HVO is a niche market that sounds reasonable, but obviously HVO can not come close to meeting the current total demand for fuel.

 

I am happy to pay a premium for HVO even though this is currently a lot more that the often quoted 10-15%. However if I also have to pay 100% propulsion rather than 60:40 (or whatever) then it really isn't viable.

It's not green or renewable it comes from palm oil, I won't be buying anymore as it's a con!

[ditchcrawler]

Local councils are also using it Council to run on eco-friendly fuel » East Suffolk Council

[Phoenix_V]

4 hours ago, peterboat said:

It's not green or renewable its mostly made from Palm oil! The palm oil is obtained by destroying the rainforests which are the lungs of the world!

I bought a load when it was cheap not knowing the full story the white is nearly used up  the red will take a long while to be used, thankfully it lasts 10 years allegedly 

It's not green or renewable it comes from palm oil, I won't be buying anymore as it's a con!

A lot of suppliers claim no palm oil used.

[IanD]

21 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

A lot of suppliers claim no palm oil used.

But some of them may be being economical with the truth... 😉

[Phoenix_V]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

But some of them may be being economical with the truth... 😉

evidence Ian?

[Up-Side-Down]

Just a thought: if the palm oil that finds its way into HVO is being re-used, is it better that it goes into landfill or into a batch of HVO? The 'damage has already been done' by an unassociated third party.

[ditchcrawler]

15 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Just a thought: if the palm oil that finds its way into HVO is being re-used, is it better that it goes into landfill or into a batch of HVO? The 'damage has already been done' by an unassociated third party.

Is it virgin palm oil? 

[Up-Side-Down]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Is it virgin palm oil? 

I'm thinking of the stuff that has already been used so not virgin (if I'm understanding you correctly).

 

Btw there is a robust certification process in place that certainly Crown Oil adhere to, which guarantees the origin of the feedstock used in the manufacture of HVO. While this was coming from EU countries I would have had 100% confidence in it. However, with more and more waste cooking oil and animal fats (the feedstock) coming from Asia and China it is, inevitably, more difficult to police.

[MtB]

5 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

A lot of suppliers claim no palm oil used.

 

I don't think it matters that much if its made from palm oil. As IanD points out anything the avoids using fossil fuel is a step forward even if it's not perfect. 

 

I remember decades ago discussing with my GP whether it would be better to give up smoking or give up drinking. He said give up smoking even if it turns you into an alcoholic, you'll be increasing your life expectancy by many years over the other way around. 

 

Same with HVO I suspect. It's not great as it causes the loss of rain forest but it's an order of magnitude better than constantly burning dino-juice instead.  

 

 

 

[peterboat]

6 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

A lot of suppliers claim no palm oil used.

We don't have enough waste oil to make HVO, most of it goes to the oil industry to be the bio  additive to petrol and diesel. 

5 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

I'm thinking of the stuff that has already been used so not virgin (if I'm understanding you correctly).

 

Btw there is a robust certification process in place that certainly Crown Oil adhere to, which guarantees the origin of the feedstock used in the manufacture of HVO. While this was coming from EU countries I would have had 100% confidence in it. However, with more and more waste cooking oil and animal fats (the feedstock) coming from Asia and China it is, inevitably, more difficult to police.

The Finnish company opened a subsidiary in Singapore, which as another poster commented  is on the edge of palm plantations that used to be rainforest. Unfortunately oil companies arnt know for their honesty and a fossil fuels company is the major maker of HVO. Here is a quick search plenty more on the net

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359819244_Hydrotreated_Vegetable_Oil_HVO_Production_from_Palm_Oil_Mill_Effluents_POME_Status_Opportunities_and_Challenges

Edited May 6 by peterboat

[Phoenix_V]

7 hours ago, peterboat said:

We don't have enough waste oil to make HVO, most of it goes to the oil industry to be the bio  additive to petrol and diesel. 

The Finnish company opened a subsidiary in Singapore, which as another poster commented  is on the edge of palm plantations that used to be rainforest. Unfortunately oil companies arnt know for their honesty and a fossil fuels company is the major maker of HVO. Here is a quick search plenty more on the net

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359819244_Hydrotreated_Vegetable_Oil_HVO_Production_from_Palm_Oil_Mill_Effluents_POME_Status_Opportunities_and_Challenges

 This seems to be a more balanced report but who knows these days

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/bursting-the-hvo-bubble

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

 This seems to be a more balanced report but who knows these days

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/bursting-the-hvo-bubble

Unfortunately, an environmental group proved that virgin palm oil was being used in the Finish companies HVO in the Netherlands, it was coming in from Singapore, Crown oils sources its HVO from them. As I said our waste oils are being used in our own fuels in a lot of cases. I think until it can be certain that HVO is from waste oils, its use should be stopped. BPs, Esso and other oil companies involvement is never good and is generally totally untrustworthy 

[Up-Side-Down]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

BPs, Esso and other oil companies involvement is never good and is generally totally untrustworthy

I think that's a pretty acceptable generalisation!

 

[IanD]

35 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Unfortunately, an environmental group proved that virgin palm oil was being used in the Finish companies HVO in the Netherlands, it was coming in from Singapore, Crown oils sources its HVO from them. As I said our waste oils are being used in our own fuels in a lot of cases. I think until it can be certain that HVO is from waste oils, its use should be stopped. BPs, Esso and other oil companies involvement is never good and is generally totally untrustworthy 

Except that you're rejecting the (available) good in favour of the (unattainable) perfect -- as @MtB points out, HVO from palm oil is still better than fossil diesel...

Edited May 7 by IanD

[MartynG]

11 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I don't think it matters that much if its made from palm oil. As IanD points out anything the avoids using fossil fuel is a step forward even if it's not perfect. 

 

I remember decades ago discussing with my GP whether it would be better to give up smoking or give up drinking. He said give up smoking even if it turns you into an alcoholic, you'll be increasing your life expectancy by many years over the other way around. 

 

Same with HVO I suspect. It's not great as it causes the loss of rain forest but it's an order of magnitude better than constantly burning dino-juice instead.  

 

 

 

 

Giving up diesel but not HVO made from palm oil is  like your analogous to choosing  to keep smoking and give up drinking.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, IanD said:

 HVO from palm oil is still better than fossil diesel...

Rubbish

Palm oi is at best a temporary  short term fix .

Plus once the rain forest is destroyed it can never be restored  so palm oil is not sustainable.

Plus  the rain forest produces the Oxygen we breathe. So snuff it out and snuff out animal life .

Nor is using fossil fuel sustainable .

 

Other  genuinely sustainable fuel sources must become more advanced like electricity from nuclear , solar , wid coupled with battery storage to iron  out variables in supply and demand.

 

[peterboat]

10 hours ago, IanD said:

Except that you're rejecting the (available) good in favour of the (unattainable) perfect -- as @MtB points out, HVO from palm oil is still better than fossil diesel...

Yes because it's not sustainable, destroying people's and animals homes plus the lungs of the world which can't be replaced is the worst of all outcomes. HVO could be used to power essential farm equipment and heavy building machinery that cannot be electric but transport is not sustainable on our current supplies of waste oils.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

Giving up diesel but not HVO made from palm oil is  like your analogous to choosing  to keep smoking and give up drinking.

 

 

 

Rubbish

Palm oi is at best a temporary  short term fix .

Plus once the rain forest is destroyed it can never be restored  so palm oil is not sustainable.

Plus  the rain forest produces the Oxygen we breathe. So snuff it out and snuff out animal life .

Nor is using fossil fuel sustainable .

 

Other  genuinely sustainable fuel sources must become more advanced like electricity from nuclear , solar , wid coupled with battery storage to iron  out variables in supply and demand.

 

Nobody's disputing that renewables are the best option -- and HVO made from waste oil is the next best thing -- but you're simply ignoring the facts if you think that burning fossil diesel is less bad than burning HVO made from palm oil... 😞

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Yes because it's not sustainable, destroying people's and animals homes plus the lungs of the world which can't be replaced is the worst of all outcomes. HVO could be used to power essential farm equipment and heavy building machinery that cannot be electric but transport is not sustainable on our current supplies of waste oils.

As I said, HVO -- especially from waste oil -- is suitable for niche markets like canal boats, not for mass markets like cars.

 

HVO made from crop sources like palm oil is not good, but is still better than burning fossil diesel -- or do you think that the CO2 from doing this somehow doesn't matter?

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Nobody's disputing that renewables are the best option -- and HVO made from waste oil is the next best thing -- but you're simply ignoring the facts if you think that burning fossil diesel is less bad than burning HVO made from palm oil... 😞

As I said, HVO -- especially from waste oil -- is suitable for niche markets like canal boats, not for mass markets like cars.

 

HVO made from crop sources like palm oil is not good, but is still better than burning fossil diesel -- or do you think that the CO2 from doing this somehow doesn't matter?

You are forgetting that the rainforest is the biggest carbon sink on the planet, if it goes so do we. So HVO won't save us it will accelerate our demise

[IanD]

Just now, peterboat said:

You are forgetting that the rainforest is the biggest carbon sink on the planet, if it goes so do we. So HVO won't save us it will accelerate our demise

No I'm not forgetting that, because it's obvious. What you're forgetting is that rising CO2 levels will kill off far more rainforests than palm oil unless we do something to reduce emissions, and in particular burning fossil fuels.

 

If you actually went and investigated the facts -- taking everything into account -- instead of just repeatedly posting your opinion then this might become obvious... 😉

 

You seem to think I'm saying that HVO made from crops (including palm oil) is a good thing -- no I'm not, renewables and HVO from waste are obviously better. But fossil diesel is worse still... 😞

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

No I'm not forgetting that, because it's obvious. What you're forgetting is that rising CO2 levels will kill off far more rainforests than palm oil unless we do something to reduce emissions, and in particular burning fossil fuels.

 

If you actually went and investigated the facts -- taking everything into account -- instead of just repeatedly posting your opinion then this might become obvious... 😉

 

You seem to think I'm saying that HVO made from crops (including palm oil) is a good thing -- no I'm not, renewables and HVO from waste are obviously better. But fossil diesel is worse still... 😞

The science says you are wrong they say the rainforests are to important to decimate further. I think we are between the devil and the deep blue sea! Stopping burning stuff is our only option HVO from palm oil isn't an option 

[MartynG]

9 hours ago, IanD said:

Nobody's disputing that renewables are the best option -- and HVO made from waste oil is the next best thing -- but you're simply ignoring the facts if you think that burning fossil diesel is less bad than burning HVO made from palm oil... 😞

 

Your conclusion from your alleged facts is not a sound conclusion

Destroying rain forest is simply not an option

 

 

[IanD]

9 hours ago, peterboat said:

The science says you are wrong they say the rainforests are to important to decimate further. I think we are between the devil and the deep blue sea! Stopping burning stuff is our only option HVO from palm oil isn't an option 

<sigh> the science says that I'm right, because unlike you I actually went and read it... 😉

 

Yes the rainforests are one of "the lungs of the planet" because they act as a carbon sink, as well as a valuable wild life ecosystem.

 

Replacing them with palm oil does destroy the ecosystem (boo!), but the palm oil trees abosrb more carbon (hooray!) which is then used instead of diesel.

 

So from the C02 point of view the net effect is positive -- but very negative for wild life.

 

Stopping burning stuff is of course the best option, but if you have to carry on burning something sometimes diesel is the worst option.

 

Do you really not get this?

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Your conclusion from your alleged facts is not a sound conclusion

Destroying rain forest is simply not an option

 

Read the facts -- real ones, not alleged.

[MtB]

35 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Destroying rain forest is simply not an option

 

So what do you propose then?

 

 

[MartynG]

27 minutes ago, IanD said:

<sigh> the science says that I'm right, because unlike you I actually went and read it... 😉

 

Yes the rainforests are one of "the lungs of the planet" because they act as a carbon sink, as well as a valuable wild life ecosystem.

 

Replacing them with palm oil does destroy the ecosystem (boo!), but the palm oil trees abosrb more carbon (hooray!) which is then used instead of diesel.

 

So from the C02 point of view the net effect is positive -- but very negative for wild life.

 

Stopping burning stuff is of course the best option, but if you have to carry on burning something sometimes diesel is the worst option.

 

Do you really not get this?

Read the facts -- real ones, not alleged.

You really do not get this.

Just now, MtB said:

 

So what do you propose then?

Use fuels that are sustainable .

HVO from Palm oil obtained responsibly from waste materials as an example

Electricity generated from solar , wind or  nuclear are other examples

 

 

[peterboat]

39 minutes ago, IanD said:

<sigh> the science says that I'm right, because unlike you I actually went and read it... 😉

 

Yes the rainforests are one of "the lungs of the planet" because they act as a carbon sink, as well as a valuable wild life ecosystem.

 

Replacing them with palm oil does destroy the ecosystem (boo!), but the palm oil trees abosrb more carbon (hooray!) which is then used instead of diesel.

 

So from the C02 point of view the net effect is positive -- but very negative for wild life.

 

Stopping burning stuff is of course the best option, but if you have to carry on burning something sometimes diesel is the worst option.

 

Do you really not get this?

Read the facts -- real ones, not alleged.

You are way off the mark palm trees are useless in comparison to the rain forest and alter the climate totally