Sizzling Where Chimney Meets Ceiling

[RooF]

Hi folks,

 

Im new to life on the cut and new to the forum. I’ve recently moved into a narrowboat and have been noticing a few things that I am unsure about. 
 

Last night I had the wood burning stove lit and hot, when a strange noise began to happen. Every 2 or 3 minutes a sizzling hiss would come from where the chimney meets the ceiling. I’m almost certain I was the sound of water boiling away as it sounded exactly like when you drop a little water into a hot frying pan. My partner things it might have something to do with condensation running between the boards on the ceiling to where it’s hottest as she had just had a shower so humidity would have been higher than normal. 
 

My immediate was chimney fire, but it didn’t seem to be the crackling or popping sound that is usually associated with that issue. Has anybody else noticed this noise? How can I go about investigating it? 
 

Thanks,

Roo

[LadyG]

Welcome to forum other will comment. Has boat been unused for a while , it does sound more like water is in the deckhead ie ceiling or the insulation  .

I would push the deckhead with hand pressure to see if it is rotten..

I would look at the boat roof to see if it is rusty leaking, use a knife or wire brush to clean right round include lifting out chimney

[RooF]

Thanks LadyG. The boat did sit unused for about 6 months so I’ll have a feel around when I can and report back. However the boat has had a survey and any weakness in the ceiling, roof leaking etc wasn’t picked up which I would have guessed it would have been if it had been present? If it is water in the ceiling, is there a possibility that once the water trapped is boiled off the noise will stop and I can continue as normal? 

[LadyG]

Not necessarily, ,often the survey is only for the hull, the engine may not be run, and the stove won't be lit.

I would tend to keep a low fire when you are on board to allow for drying,

There can't really be diagnosis by forum for these things.

Get a smoke alarm and. CO monitor today. Have a good clean and inspection round stoves, then go to calorifier, and have a good look there, just to familiarise yourself, welcome to DIY narrowboating!

Edited April 21, 2023 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, RooF said:

Thanks LadyG. The boat did sit unused for about 6 months so I’ll have a feel around when I can and report back. However the boat has had a survey and any weakness in the ceiling, roof leaking etc wasn’t picked up which I would have guessed it would have been if it had been present? If it is water in the ceiling, is there a possibility that once the water trapped is boiled off the noise will stop and I can continue as normal? 

 

Depends on where the water s coming from. If it is rain getting in between the flue and roof collar or under the roof collar, it will come back. As it will if it is condensation on the inside of the chimney and running down between the flue and roof collar.

[RooF]

Thanks folks, I’ve got a smoke alarm, CO alarm and heat detector onboard and I’ve requested the fire service come round to check it out and tell me what they’d recommend I get in terms of extinguishers etc. my main concern is that this isn’t a sign of something unsafe, if it’s just something not being totally water tight or the like I’m happy to tackle that when I have some DIY time. Thanks for the warm welcome all! 

[Lady M]

BSS will tell you about fire extinguishers

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 minutes ago, Lady C said:

BSS will tell you about fire extinguishers

And CO detectors, smoke detectors and fire blankets. https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/ Numbers and location will depend on boat size, number of rooms and so on. Worth reading up on. Boat fires are not uncommon and can take off very quickly with devastating results.

If the stove hasn't been lit for a bit. Especially with the rain we have had over the last few weeks, then any gap in the fire cement, putty, or other sealant between the flue collar (the heavy cast iron thing on the roof of most narrowboats) and the flue pipe may well have got some water in it. Now boiling off and giving the sounds you are hearing.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, RooF said:

Thanks folks, I’ve got a smoke alarm, CO alarm and heat detector onboard and I’ve requested the fire service come round to check it out and tell me what they’d recommend I get in terms of extinguishers etc. my main concern is that this isn’t a sign of something unsafe, if it’s just something not being totally water tight or the like I’m happy to tackle that when I have some DIY time. Thanks for the warm welcome all! 

 

The Fire Brigade might tell you what they think you need, but it may not be the same as is required to get the BSSC (Boat Safety Certificate) No point not complying with the BSS requirements which will mean you fail the exanination and cannot licence your boat until you do comply.

 

The number of, size and type depend on your specific boat.

 

You can see the MINIMUM number you need, and the MINIMUM A & B ratings that you must have here :

 

It will marked on each exttinguisher - in this example you can see 5A & 34B.

So to use these extinguiahers yu would need 5 of them is your boat was longer than 36 feet.

The requirement is to meet a minimum of 21A and these are 5A each so you need 5 of them (5 x 5 - 25A) and you need a minimum of 144B and 5 of these would be 170B

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

Is the flue between the stove and the ceiling single or twin skinned? With a single skin flue I would be surprised if the flue at ceiling level is hot enough to boil water, which is implied by the sizzling. It does suggest you are either running the stove very hard or you do indeed have a chimney fire.

[ditchcrawler]

15 minutes ago, Lady C said:

BSS will tell you about fire extinguishers

They will tell you the minimum requirement to comply with their regulations. If you know how to use them safely you can do a lot better with some additions

13 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

And CO detectors, smoke detectors and fire blankets. https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/ Numbers and location will depend on boat size, number of rooms and so on. Worth reading up on. Boat fires are not uncommon and can take off very quickly with devastating results.

If the stove hasn't been lit for a bit. Especially with the rain we have had over the last few weeks, then any gap in the fire cement, putty, or other sealant between the flue collar (the heavy cast iron thing on the roof of most narrowboats) and the flue pipe may well have got some water in it. Now boiling off and giving the sounds you are hearing.

Smoke detectors are not a BSS requirement (yet)

[LadyG]

12 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Is the flue between the stove and the ceiling single or twin skinned? With a single skin flue I would be surprised if the flue at ceiling level is hot enough to boil water, which is implied by the sizzling. It does suggest you are either running the stove very hard or you do indeed have a chimney fire.

I have a single skin, it is easy to tell if fire is warm, or hand hot ,  a double would be much wider on a standard s f stove, and the outside should not get hot

[bizzard]

A spectre on the roof frying bacon over the chimney.

[Hudds Lad]

What are you burning?

 

Could it be condensate from wet or unseasoned fuel dripping back into a hot flue?

[RooF]

We’d be in danger of going off topic here, but the main reason I want to talk to the fire department is to talk about powder vs CO2 extinguishers in an enclosed space eg restricted sight to get out vs suffocation risk in a closed space. Then I was going to follow guidelines.

 

Pretty sure my chimneys single skin, I don’t think it was a fire because frankly I had a look down the chimney and didn’t see anything. I would get it cleaned but I feel this is unnecessary going into the summer season, I’ll wait till Autumn.  
 

I wasn’t burning the stove that hot, it was logs not coal so there’s only so hot it can get. The occasional sizzling, which happened every few minutes and would last one a few seconds exactly like dropping a drop of water in a frying pan, was definitely coming from where the chimney meets the ceiling. 

[LadyG]

58 minutes ago, RooF said:

We’d be in danger of going off topic here, but the main reason I want to talk to the fire department is to talk about powder vs CO2 extinguishers in an enclosed space eg restricted sight to get out vs suffocation risk in a closed space. Then I was going to follow guidelines.

 

Pretty sure my chimneys single skin, I don’t think it was a fire because frankly I had a look down the chimney and didn’t see anything. I would get it cleaned but I feel this is unnecessary going into the summer season, I’ll wait till Autumn.  
 

I wasn’t burning the stove that hot, it was logs not coal so there’s only so hot it can get. The occasional sizzling, which happened every few minutes and would last one a few seconds exactly like dropping a drop of water in a frying pan, was definitely coming from where the chimney meets the ceiling. 

Well I can tell you that the Boat Safety Scheme is what you need for your extinguishers .

HINT mine are not CO2

The extinguishers are to allow escape not for fighting the fire .

Bye the way I always buy seasoned wood as stuff from the towpath could be wet or resinous

Keep it legal for everyone 's sake

Edited April 21, 2023 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

41 minutes ago, RooF said:

We’d be in danger of going off topic here, but the main reason I want to talk to the fire department is to talk about powder vs CO2

 

You do as you wish, but if you want to have a boat on C&RT waters you will need to comply with their regulations, not the Fire Brigades.

 

I posted earlier what extinguishers YOU MUST HAVE, anything else and you will not be granted a licence.

[LadyG]

42 minutes ago, RooF said:

We’d be in danger of going off topic here, but the main reason I want to talk to the fire department is to talk about powder vs CO2 extinguishers in an enclosed space eg restricted sight to get out vs suffocation risk in a closed space. Then I was going to follow guidelines.

 

Pretty sure my chimneys single skin, I don’t think it was a fire because frankly I had a look down the chimney and didn’t see anything. I would get it cleaned but I feel this is unnecessary going into the summer season, I’ll wait till Autumn.  
 

I wasn’t burning the stove that hot, it was logs not coal so there’s only so hot it can get. The occasional sizzling, which happened every few minutes and would last one a few seconds exactly like dropping a drop of water in a frying pan, was definitely coming from where the chimney meets the ceiling. 

Well I can tell you that the Boat Safety Scheme is what you need for your extinguishers .

HINT they are not CO2

The extinguishers are to allow escape not for fighting the fire .

I always buy seasoned wood as stuff from the towpath could be wet or resinous.

You should already have suitable fire extinguishers on board to comply with the Boat Safety Scheme and the Licence issued by the CRT.

Else no insurance. Keep it legal.

[RooF]

Hi folks totally agreed, but CO2 and powder extinguishers can both comply with the BSS, it’s a choice between the two if I’m not mistaken . Both can give the specified A and B requirements given the right size and combinations. The reason I’m hesitating to use powder is that often fire fighters will tell you powder makes such a cloud of powder when used that you will not be able to navigate around the space and find your way out if it’s small such as a boiler room, basement or indeed a narrowboat. Hence I though CO2 might be better to use for a fire extinguisher that could aid in escape, however it comes with a risk of suffocation by displacing oxygen of course. I’m replacing my fire extinguishers as though I have a BSS they are all quite old, decades old in fact, and I want to make sure I have newer working extinguishers as the new owner I want to be as safe as I can be. 

[magnetman]

The BS scheme doesn't allow CO2 extinguishers as I understand it. 

 

Brilliant for engine room fires of course if the engine room is separated from the living quarters. 

But it won't count towards the fire A and B ratings. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

47 minutes ago, RooF said:

The occasional sizzling, which happened every few minutes and would last one a few seconds exactly like dropping a drop of water in a frying pan, was definitely coming from where the chimney meets the ceiling. 

 

Condensation from the chimney dripping into the flue that is hot. You may find a horrible liquid has leaked out between the roof collar and the chimney as well. Largely solved by correctly fitted a double skin chimney (not flue).

 

Ideally, you will have a non-combustible trim on the ceiling around the flue. If you take this down and use a torch, you might be able to see what is going on.  If your ceiling fits tight to the flue then it becomes a fire hazard if the stove runs away, so it really needs a gap covered by a non-combustible trim of some sort.

 

 

[LadyG]

Best stand with your back to the exit before you discharge the powder

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, RooF said:

Hi folks totally agreed, but CO2 and powder extinguishers can both comply with the BSS, it’s a choice between the two if I’m not mistaken . Both can give the specified A and B requirements given the right size and combinations. The reason I’m hesitating to use powder is that often fire fighters will tell you powder makes such a cloud of powder when used that you will not be able to navigate around the space and find your way out if it’s small such as a boiler room, basement or indeed a narrowboat. Hence I though CO2 might be better to use for a fire extinguisher that could aid in escape, however it comes with a risk of suffocation by displacing oxygen of course. I’m replacing my fire extinguishers as though I have a BSS they are all quite old, decades old in fact, and I want to make sure I have newer working extinguishers as the new owner I want to be as safe as I can be. 

 

It is entirely up to you - I have Co2 extinguishers (commercial premises and they were legally required) and they do not have an A rating only B and E rated.

 

So you would need several 'A rated extinguishers to meet the A rating (which would also meet the B rating bit you can of course have 'extras' (once you meet the minimum requirement and they can add aditional Co2 or whatever you want them to be) .

 

One of mine in the beer cellar :

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, RooF said:

but CO2 and powder extinguishers can both comply with the BSS, it’

 

I think that you need to see what fire ratings the BSS require. I suspect CO2 will meet one, but not the other so you could still end up with powder extinguishers to meet the BSS fire rating.

[David Mack]

8 minutes ago, RooF said:

Hi folks totally agreed, but CO2 and powder extinguishers can both comply with the BSS, it’s a choice between the two if I’m not mistaken . Both can give the specified A and B requirements given the right size and combinations.

Not according to the BSS.

Look at the Private Boat Requirements, Appendix 6 para 2.2:

"The BSS requires each portable fire extinguisher to be capable of tackling both Class A and Class B fires (the main classes of fires experienced on small craft) and so the choice is currently limited to foam, powder and a limited number of wet chemical, clean agent and water mist extinguishers."

 

CO2 extinguishers are class B/C but not A.