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Lister Petter AVA2 missing Gearbox


gregich

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Hi all, my friend has a Lister Petter AVA2 engine in her narrowboat but no gearbox. She doesn't know what type of gearbox it was as it was taken for repair but basically stolen along with a her money. Can anybody help with some info on the type of gearbox used with AVA2 engines or even better have a servicable one for sale?

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32 minutes ago, BEngo said:

I think most AVA's had a Parsons box, but it should not be hard to adapt things so that a small PRM will fit.  Worth a chat with Richard of Primrose Engineering.

 

N

But if you fit a different gearbox the length and the reduction box output shaft height might be different, meaning you might have to move the engine as well.

Does the OP's friend have any documentation for the engine which might state which gearbox was fitted, or even photographs of the engine/gearbox to help with identification?

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This may not be much help, but the "gear" shown on the flywheel side reminds me of the BMC B Type mechanical gearboxes, and they are very similar to certain Parsons boxes BEngo mentioned. Parsons are still in existence https://www.parsonsmathwaymarine.co.uk/parsons_gearboxes.htm

and the website says the Parsons B type was for the Petter AV range.

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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

This may not be much help, but the "gear" shown on the flywheel side reminds me of the BMC B Type mechanical gearboxes, and they are very similar to certain Parsons boxes BEngo mentioned. Parsons are still in existence https://www.parsonsmathwaymarine.co.uk/parsons_gearboxes.htm

and the website says the Parsons B type was for the Petter AV range.

Thanks.

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

But if you fit a different gearbox the length and the reduction box output shaft height might be different, meaning you might have to move the engine as well.

Does the OP's friend have any documentation for the engine which might state which gearbox was fitted, or even photographs of the engine/gearbox to help with identification?

She has a manual for the engine but not sure if that will mention the gearbox but i'll get her to dig it out.

3 hours ago, BEngo said:

I think most AVA's had a Parsons box, but it should not be hard to adapt things so that a small PRM will fit.  Worth a chat with Richard of Primrose Engineering.

 

N

Where is he based?

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Forgive my pedantry but I don't think there's anything Lister about an AVA. It's a Petter engine that long pre-dates the merging/buyout (delete as appropriate) between those companies.

 

I have a PH2 which as some will know was a development from the AVA. When the original gearbox on that went bang it was replaced with a second hand Hurth HBW10 that has yet to break.

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52 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Forgive my pedantry but I don't think there's anything Lister about an AVA. It's a Petter engine that long pre-dates the merging/buyout (delete as appropriate) between those companies.

 

I have a PH2 which as some will know was a development from the AVA. When the original gearbox on that went bang it was replaced with a second hand Hurth HBW10 that has yet to break.

 

But in the OP's case, that will involve an adapter plate and some sort of machining of the flywheel to accept a drive plate. I suspect it will be far from straight forward, but Richard (MES) would be the man to ask.

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3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But in the OP's case, that will involve an adapter plate and some sort of machining of the flywheel to accept a drive plate. I suspect it will be far from straight forward, but Richard (MES) would be the man to ask.

Indeed, i was warned off doing it to my SR2 on a previous thread.

The AV owner has already been ripped off nearly £300 plus the gearbox so money would be an issue too. She'll need a slice of luck to find the right gearbox by the looks of things.

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Screenshot_20230413-190642.png

 

Something odd here. The engine has the raised had start and a small adapter for a gearbox with the centre of the reverse cluster - painted green

 

On the left is a Hurth gearbox, which looks too small for the job, on an adapter which is too big for this engine - painted blue

 

Richard

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35 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Screenshot_20230413-190642.png

 

Something odd here. The engine has the raised had start and a small adapter for a gearbox with the centre of the reverse cluster - painted green

 

On the left is a Hurth gearbox, which looks too small for the job, on an adapter which is too big for this engine - painted blue

 

Richard

 

The OP did say "ignore the gearbox", I suspect the one in the photo was obtained to replace the original, and then it was found not to fit.

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10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The OP did say "ignore the gearbox", I suspect the one in the photo was obtained to replace the original, and then it was found not to fit.

 

He did!

 

I've just spotted, this AVA might be a PH2. If so, we may have a gearbox

 

Richard

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Yes ,track down the scrote that nicked the gearbox...........seen this happen many times with 'a man at the pub can fix engines'.......the man at pub has a very short memory span ,possibly caused by alcohol,and just needs a  friendly reminder.

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Assuming that a few friends turning up to visit the person who currently has the original gearbox is for some reason not an option, if Richard can't help there is an outside chance that I might have a suitable gearbox (Richard is likely to be the better option because he actually knows what he has and whether it will fit and I don't).

 

I have a couple of boxes which I believe were made by Morris, and I believe from another thread on here that these were fitted to PH2s. If they are needed I can drag them out of the shed and someone may be able to confirm whether they are actually what I was told they were and whether they would fit. There are a lot of conditionals in that statement but happy to dig them out later if needed.

 

Alec

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On 14/04/2023 at 19:11, RLWP said:

 

He did!

 

I've just spotted, this AVA might be a PH2. If so, we may have a gearbox

 

Richard

Hi Richard, sounds promising, how would I be able to confirm this is a PH2?

On 15/04/2023 at 09:01, agg221 said:

Assuming that a few friends turning up to visit the person who currently has the original gearbox is for some reason not an option, if Richard can't help there is an outside chance that I might have a suitable gearbox (Richard is likely to be the better option because he actually knows what he has and whether it will fit and I don't).

 

I have a couple of boxes which I believe were made by Morris, and I believe from another thread on here that these were fitted to PH2s. If they are needed I can drag them out of the shed and someone may be able to confirm whether they are actually what I was told they were and whether they would fit. There are a lot of conditionals in that statement but happy to dig them out later if needed.

 

Alec

Thanks Alec, I'll see what happens with Richard and get back to you when iv determined if the engine is indeed a PH2. 

On 14/04/2023 at 19:30, agg221 said:

I know this isn't the original question, but is the whereabouts of the original gearbox still known? If so, might there be ways of recovering it?

 

Alec

It's been a couple of years so I'm tidying up an old mess tbh. Obviously that was my first question. Probably sold on by the conman.

On 15/04/2023 at 06:10, john.k said:

Yes ,track down the scrote that nicked the gearbox...........seen this happen many times with 'a man at the pub can fix engines'.......the man at pub has a very short memory span ,possibly caused by alcohol,and just needs a  friendly reminder.

That would be my normal recourse but it's not my call so my hands are tied.

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On 15/04/2023 at 09:01, agg221 said:

Assuming that a few friends turning up to visit the person who currently has the original gearbox is for some reason not an option, if Richard can't help there is an outside chance that I might have a suitable gearbox (Richard is likely to be the better option because he actually knows what he has and whether it , wefit and I don't).

 

I have a couple of boxes which I believe were made by Morris, and I believe from another thread on here that these were fitted to PH2s. If they are needed I can drag them out of the shed and someone may be able to confirm whether they are actually what I was told they were and whether they would fit. There are a lot of conditionals in that statement but happy to dig them out later if needed.

 

Alec

Indeed, we have a boat here with a PH2 with a Morris gearbox. Morris boxes used to be quite popular. BMC Vedette, Coventry Victor ect.

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19 hours ago, gregich said:

Hi Richard, sounds promising, how would I be able to confirm this is a PH2?

 

 

It looks like the rocker boxes on the top of the engine still have their labels attached. One of them should tell you what the engine is

 

Richard

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20 hours ago, bizzard said:

Indeed, we have a boat here with a PH2 with a Morris gearbox. Morris boxes used to be quite popular. BMC Vedette, Coventry Victor ect.

 

Assuming the Morris boxes are what morphed into the BMC A and B type I think the OP needs to take a bit of care. The bits on the engine that the photo showed looked very much like that range of boxes but which one, the A or B type. I think the Vedette was the marine version of the A series engines, so 800 to 950+ ccs. The navigator was the 150cc B series engine, and I am fairly sure they and definitely the 1.5D used the B type box. I would hate the OP to get the wrong box, assuming it is a Morris/BMC box.

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On 20/04/2023 at 12:06, Tony Brooks said:

 

Assuming the Morris boxes are what morphed into the BMC A and B type I think the OP needs to take a bit of care. The bits on the engine that the photo showed looked very much like that range of boxes but which one, the A or B type. I think the Vedette was the marine version of the A series engines, so 800 to 950+ ccs. The navigator was the 150cc B series engine, and I am fairly sure they and definitely the 1.5D used the B type box. I would hate the OP to get the wrong box, assuming it is a Morris/BMC box.

If i was to move the gearbox out the way and get some better pics, would you be able to tell what gearbox it was or wasn't or would it take detailed measurements etc. Any more monetary mistakes might just sap the energy out of this effort to put things right as my friend has lived without it for 2/3 years now. Maybe if i took a template of the housing face before purchasing and a close up pic of the 'gear' wheel. I have very little knowledge of gearboxes and the nuanced differences although i'd feel confident fitting one so long as i was sure it was the right gearbox as i'v done this with my BMC 1.5..

 

On 20/04/2023 at 08:20, RLWP said:

 

It looks like the rocker boxes on the top of the engine still have their labels attached. One of them should tell you what the engine is

 

Richard

I'll have a look over the weekend..

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57 minutes ago, gregich said:

If i was to move the gearbox out the way and get some better pics, would you be able to tell what gearbox it was or wasn't or would it take detailed measurements etc. Any more monetary mistakes might just sap the energy out of this effort to put things right as my friend has lived without it for 2/3 years now. Maybe if i took a template of the housing face before purchasing and a close up pic of the 'gear' wheel. I have very little knowledge of gearboxes and the nuanced differences although i'd feel confident fitting one so long as i was sure it was the right gearbox as i'v done this with my BMC 1.5..

 

I am sorry, but it was nearly 60 years ago when I was dealing with the B Type BMC boxes, and I don't have a manual. I know Richard has had dealings with them much more recently, so he may well be your best hope of help.

 

It is the gear sticking out that made me think Parsons or B type but the gear does not look quite right for the B type and I THINK there was a cam on that gear shaft that worked a plunge type oil pump to squirt oil into the planet gears. I can't see that. This pump was carried on an intermediate plate that fitted between the gearbox and flywheel housing, there is no sigs of that in the photo and Paul's photo of an AV2 has the flywheel on the other end of the engine. Your photo seems to show what looks very like a flywheel housing on the gearbox end of the engine that also houses what I take to be a raised hand start mechanism.

 

Paul's photo has the raised start on the gearbox casting, unlike any B type I have ever seen, but the reduction box, reverse brake band adjuster, real mounting intermediate plate between gearbox and reduction box, plus the tapered shape are all very reminiscent of the B type. However, based on what I found on the Mathy-parsons website I suspect it is a Parsons B type box, possibly with some Petter additional castings involved for the raised start and flywheel housing.

 

I very much fear it will be all too easy to get the wrong box. Maybe it will be cheaper and less time-consuming to fit a complete second hand engine and gearbox.

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17 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am sorry, but it was nearly 60 years ago when I was dealing with the B Type BMC boxes, and I don't have a manual. I know Richard has had dealings with them much more recently, so he may well be your best hope of help.

 

It is the gear sticking out that made me think Parsons or B type but the gear does not look quite right for the B type and I THINK there was a cam on that gear shaft that worked a plunge type oil pump to squirt oil into the planet gears. I can't see that.

<snip>

 

What I can see all looks pretty standard for a PH, Tony

 

Richard

 

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 20/04/2023 at 08:20, RLWP said:

 

It looks like the rocker boxes on the top of the engine still have their labels attached. One of them should tell you what the engine is

 

Richard

It's took a while to get more pics due to it not being my boat but here they are.

Screenshot_20230522-024927.png

Screenshot_20230522-025001.png

On 21/04/2023 at 16:53, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am sorry, but it was nearly 60 years ago when I was dealing with the B Type BMC boxes, and I don't have a manual. I know Richard has had dealings with them much more recently, so he may well be your best hope of help.

 

It is the gear sticking out that made me think Parsons or B type but the gear does not look quite right for the B type and I THINK there was a cam on that gear shaft that worked a plunge type oil pump to squirt oil into the planet gears. I can't see that. This pump was carried on an intermediate plate that fitted between the gearbox and flywheel housing, there is no sigs of that in the photo and Paul's photo of an AV2 has the flywheel on the other end of the engine. Your photo seems to show what looks very like a flywheel housing on the gearbox end of the engine that also houses what I take to be a raised hand start mechanism.

 

Paul's photo has the raised start on the gearbox casting, unlike any B type I have ever seen, but the reduction box, reverse brake band adjuster, real mounting intermediate plate between gearbox and reduction box, plus the tapered shape are all very reminiscent of the B type. However, based on what I found on the Mathy-parsons website I suspect it is a Parsons B type box, possibly with some Petter additional castings involved for the raised start and flywheel housing.

 

I very much fear it will be all too easy to get the wrong box. Maybe it will be cheaper and less time-consuming to fit a complete second hand engine and gearbox.

There's an offer of a Isuzu engine with gearbox but I thought I'd check out getting right gearbox first as this seemed easier to me on paper. The reality seems anything but atm.

On 20/04/2023 at 08:20, RLWP said:

 

It looks like the rocker boxes on the top of the engine still have their labels attached. One of them should tell you what the engine is

 

Richard

More pics that might help

Screenshot_20230522-025013.png

Screenshot_20230522-025038.png

On 20/04/2023 at 08:20, RLWP said:

 

It looks like the rocker boxes on the top of the engine still have their labels attached. One of them should tell you what the engine is

 

Richard

 

Screenshot_20230522-025047.png

Screenshot_20230522-025100.png

On 20/04/2023 at 08:20, RLWP said:

 

It looks like the rocker boxes on the top of the engine still have their labels attached. One of them should tell you what the engine is

 

Richard

 

Screenshot_20230522-025112.png

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