Identifying a Stolen Boat

[Jennarasion]

Hi guys, 

Is there any way to identify if a boat was stolen to then be sold?

Not sure if I'm just being paranoid, but after making a post on FB, someone has contacted me about a boat that they are selling. Super cheap for the size, but otherwise I am having a stupid hard time at getting information from them. They want to deliver to me via trailer (why?), aren't giving me any details, no pictures, I literally only know the size and price. All red flags.

It is quite local to me, so I'm thinking of going to check it out and, best case scenario, the seller is just bad at messaging. But anything in particular I should be on the lookout for? And questions that I should ask?

I'm not sure what would happen down the line if I bought it and it turned out to be stolen, I'm guessing it would have to be surrendered? (Obviously with me even asking I don't want to go down this route, but I think its good to know)

[john.k]

You are buying a boat sight unseen?.......For what you think is way under market price?........and the seller contacted you?...Do you have a record of the contatct?......Youd certainly need the sellers name and residential address,,and some documentation of his purchase of the boat.,and preferably boat registration/license in his name......and Id bee keen to actually inspect the boat........Even if the title is OK,the boat may have a lot of expensive faults needing repair before it floats................if you were to buy a stolen boat from a dodgy character well under market price ,you risk not only losing the boat ,but having you collar felt as a reciever of tainted /stolen property.

Edited April 13, 2023 by john.k

[Tony Brooks]

4 hours ago, Jennarasion said:

Hi guys, 

Is there any way to identify if a boat was stolen to then be sold?

Not sure if I'm just being paranoid, but after making a post on FB, someone has contacted me about a boat that they are selling. Super cheap for the size, but otherwise I am having a stupid hard time at getting information from them. They want to deliver to me via trailer (why?), aren't giving me any details, no pictures, I literally only know the size and price. All red flags.

It is quite local to me, so I'm thinking of going to check it out and, best case scenario, the seller is just bad at messaging. But anything in particular I should be on the lookout for? And questions that I should ask?

I'm not sure what would happen down the line if I bought it and it turned out to be stolen, I'm guessing it would have to be surrendered? (Obviously with me even asking I don't want to go down this route, but I think its good to know)

 

Basic answer for the vast majority of inland boats is NO. The best you can hope for is a stack of invoices for licences, BSS examinations and work done with the owner's name and address on them that you check against their driving licence or a couple of recent utility bills etc.

 

This is shouting a classic social media scam, I would not even be considering it, run away.

[Tracy D'arth]

This could be a model boat on its own little trailer. I have heard of such a scam before.

 

Ignore.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

This could be a model boat on its own little trailer. I have heard of such a scam before.

 

Ignore.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is.

 

The wording can be important (if the buyer is trying to prevent come-back), there is a difference between ..........

 

"A year 2000 model 57 foot narrowboat", and 

"A model of a year 2000 57 foot narrowboat"

[Bod]

5 hours ago, Jennarasion said:

Hi guys, 

Is there any way to identify if a boat was stolen to then be sold?

Not sure if I'm just being paranoid, but after making a post on FB, someone has contacted me about a boat that they are selling. Super cheap for the size, but otherwise I am having a stupid hard time at getting information from them. They want to deliver to me via trailer (why?), aren't giving me any details, no pictures, I literally only know the size and price. All red flags.

It is quite local to me, so I'm thinking of going to check it out and, best case scenario, the seller is just bad at messaging. But anything in particular I should be on the lookout for? And questions that I should ask?

I'm not sure what would happen down the line if I bought it and it turned out to be stolen, I'm guessing it would have to be surrendered? (Obviously with me even asking I don't want to go down this route, but I think its good to know)

You are being SCAMMED this is a classic technique.  They will want the money up front before promising delivery which will never happen.

Cut all contact.  Do not consider any boat without seeing it in person first.

 

Bod

Edited April 13, 2023 by Bod

[BilgePump]

My bet is that there is no boat, at least not one that the 'seller' owns and can legitimately sell.

People eager to get rid of a boat quickly generally want to sell as-is, where-is, with removal or mooring the responsibility of the buyer. They don't want to get involved in organising lift, transport etc.

A common scam is to list a boat using pictures from another sales website, ebay or such. It's absolutely dirt cheap but the catch is that it's in 'storage' and will have to be 'delivered' to the customer, unseen in real life. Of course they don't have a boat in storage or one to be delivered, you can't go and view prior to paying over money, there is no boat delivered and the buyer realises they have been scammed out of a large wedge of cash.

 

eta: Run, don't walk, away!

Edited April 13, 2023 by BilgePump

[Jennarasion]

5 hours ago, john.k said:

You are buying a boat sight unseen?.......For what you think is way under market price?........and the seller contacted you?...Do you have a record of the contatct?......Youd certainly need the sellers name and residential address,,and some documentation of his purchase of the boat.,and preferably boat registration/license in his name......and Id bee keen to actually inspect the boat........Even if the title is OK,the boat may have a lot of expensive faults needing repair before it floats................if you were to buy a stolen boat from a dodgy character well under market price ,you risk not only losing the boat ,but having you collar felt as a reciever of tainted /stolen property.

No not sight unseen, I would definitely view it before committing to anything. 

I'm not surprised that the seller contacted me, quite a few have as I have posted that I was looking for a quick buy...but yes its waaay under market value. I would get a shell for more.

So I'm sure it's either a scam, a monetary blackhole, or stolen, or I fell into the of the millennium. 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Basic answer for the vast majority of inland boats is NO. The best you can hope for is a stack of invoices for licences, BSS examinations and work done with the owner's name and address on them that you check against their driving licence or a couple of recent utility bills etc.

 

This is shouting a classic social media scam, I would not even be considering it, run away.

That's what I'm worried about, its like the wild west on the canals 😂

My first thought when he asked if I was interested was that I was going to bring people with me to view in case I get jumped 😂

1 hour ago, BilgePump said:

My bet is that there is no boat, at least not one that the 'seller' owns and can legitimately sell.

People eager to get rid of a boat quickly generally want to sell as-is, where-is, with removal or mooring the responsibility of the buyer. They don't want to get involved in organising lift, transport etc.

A common scam is to list a boat using pictures from another sales website, ebay or such. It's absolutely dirt cheap but the catch is that it's in 'storage' and will have to be 'delivered' to the customer, unseen in real life. Of course they don't have a boat in storage or one to be delivered, you can't go and view prior to paying over money, there is no boat delivered and the buyer realises they have been scammed out of a large wedge of cash.

 

eta: Run, don't walk, away!

Yeah this seems to be extremely likely 

[Bee]

Buying anything is a risk and we all have to take a bit of a punt (!) sometimes but this sounds like its way too risky.

[Athy]

It does sound suspicious.

If you have no details of the boat, how do you know that its price is below market value?

[robtheplod]

If we're all sure this is a scam then maybe try to get their personal details - enough to report?

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Bod said:

You are being SCAMMED this is a classic technique.  They will want the money up front before promising delivery which will never happen.

Cut all contact.  Do not consider any boat without seeing it in person first.

 

Bod

This was a scam going round a few years ago, the boat in that case was normally in Scotland 

[Mike Tee]

As a first step, purely out of interest, I'd ask for a photo of it on the trailer, then I'd post the picture on here because its a fair bet someone on here will recognize it and comment accordingly.

[Arthur Marshall]

If it's a narrowboat, that's quite a hefty trailer, for a start. If a cruiser, not so much and had probably (assuming it exists) been on a trailer surplus to the owner's requirements for a while.

Cash sales are common enough for boats, or certainly used to be. But if the owner won't give a history or boat number, or let you see it in situ, it's a scam.

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

This was a scam going round a few years ago, the boat in that case was normally in Scotland 

 

I decided to 'have a go' at one of those sellers and to cut a long (weeks and weeks and dozens of emails) story short, I explained that I was working all over Scotland could he tell me where it was so I could visit and have a look at it - "No you cannot, it is in a bonded store and only customs officers are allowed in there" I persevered asking to view, asking for pictures etc and eventually he just dissapeared.

[Ray T]

A rouse which fraudsters have used in the past is to lift photographs off a legitimate boat sales web site and copy them to an online auction site.

The boat is then advertised at ridiculously low price, either on a trailer or some obscure part of the country with buyer collect.

 

You pay up, money disappears and there is of course no boat.

 

As others have suggested, have nothing to do with this.

 

At least with a reputable broker you have some fall back.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Ray T

[BilgePump]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If it's a narrowboat, that's quite a hefty trailer, for a start. If a cruiser, not so much and had probably (assuming it exists) been on a trailer surplus to the owner's requirements for a while.

Cash sales are common enough for boats, or certainly used to be. But if the owner won't give a history or boat number, or let you see it in situ, it's a scam.

That's the only scenario where it would make sense. I've sold small GRP cruisers but wanted to keep my trailer so offered them for sale with free delivery to a slipway or lift within 25 miles with that cost to be paid for by the buyer. They were welcome to come and view the boat on my path at home prior to paying a deposit and then balance on delivery.

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Jennarasion said:

Hi guys, 

Is there any way to identify if a boat was stolen to then be sold?

 

Short answer: No.

 

Long answer: Yes.

 

A stolen boat will not come with a long owner history comprising a tatty sheaf of documents being old CRT license squares, invoices from CRT bearing the seller's name and address, random other letters from CRT, bills for storage/moorings, repairs, spare parts etc. Start off asking the seller for their name and write down what they say. Similarly for their address. Only then ask to see some CRT paperwork/letters with those details on. And ideally their driving licence also bearing the name and address previously given. If all this fits together well, then it is probably above board.

 

But I predict you'll get a string of excuses and/or evasiveness.

 

 

 

[David Mack]

Some years ago I came across an advert on Gumtree in London, for a National 2DM engine, complete with several photos of it sitting on a pallet in a factory or warehouse. When I contacted the 'vendor' he said the engine was in Scotland, and could be delivered to me if I transferred the cash to his bank account. He told me he wasn't available to show me the engine, but gave me an address where I could collect it (after I had paid). A bit of detective work on Google streetview showed that the street he had given didn't have a number 36, and a bit more googling showed that the bank account he had given was held at a HSBC branch in Luton.

When I persisted in asking about viewing, and offered cash on collection he went silent. 

I subsequently googled the few details he had given me and came upon a post from a very upset Dutch man on an audiophile forum. He had paid a significant sum of money to the same bank account for some some fancy valve amplifier which was to be delivered to him in Holland. Needless to say once he had paid the money all contact with his 'vendor' ceased.

The OP's situation sounds very similar.

Edited April 13, 2023 by David Mack

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Ray T said:

At least with a reputable broker you have some fall back.

 

Apart from the well known examples 'when you don't' there have been numerous example of Phoenix companies arising from the ashes of both canal boat brokers and canal boat builders.

 

Selling the same boat multiple times and getting the money up front.

Selling a boat that isn't for sale and only came in for repair.

Selling a boat that has its mooring there.

etc etc .

 

Then, they go bust - buyer doesn't get the boat (goes to creditors) seller doesn't get his money (goes to creditors)

 

One example :

 

 

A friend of a friend who is waiting for his money on his boat sale has just been down to the Meadow Lane site and it is posted on the door with a number to call....(the liquidators)

What a sorry state it looks like he may have lost all his money, many thousands.

The purchaser has paid his money many weeks ago and has the boat.

Who now is the Legal owner ? What a mess to sort out.

Feeling very sorry for them.

 

 

If a broker goes bust mid transaction, or decides to 'bu**er off to the sunshine' there is no more protection buying from a broker than from a private individual - in fact, maybe less so.

 

 

 

 

Jailed boat salesman cheated customers out of half a million pounds

"You acted without a care for the impact on their lives and that impact was significant."

 

A boat salesman was jailed for four years after netting £480,000 by cheating customers out of their vessels.

David Shakespeare once sent a dud £27,000 cheque when the company accounts contained only 85p, Nottingham Crown Court heard.

 

"Mr Shakespeare's initial response was to legitimately take out a loan which totalled £126,000, secured against assets. However that sum did not suffice so he turned to dishonesty.

"He secured a further loan for £140,000 from a separate company, using as security boats he did not own. They had simply been entrusted to his yard to be sold by him.

"When that amount didn't suffice, he turned to the straightforward theft of selling the boats and keeping the proceeds to himself," said Mr Widoger. Some of the cash was transferred to another firm.

 

Jailed boat salesman cheated customers out of half a million pounds - Nottinghamshire Live (nottinghampost.com)

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Feeby100]

Run away 

[TheBiscuits]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A boat salesman was jailed for four years after netting £480,000 by cheating customers out of their vessels.

 

Did he keep the money?  2 years inside for twenty grand a month if he only serves half the time....

[Arthur Marshall]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Apart from the well known examples 'when you don't' there have been numerous example of Phoenix companies arising from the ashes of both canal boat brokers and canal boat builders.

 

Selling the same boat multiple times and getting the money up front.

Selling a boat that isn't for sale and only came in for repair.

Selling a boat that has its mooring there.

etc etc .

 

Then, they go bust - buyer doesn't get the boat (goes to creditors) seller doesn't get his money (goes to creditors)

 

One example :

 

 

A friend of a friend who is waiting for his money on his boat sale has just been down to the Meadow Lane site and it is posted on the door with a number to call....(the liquidators)

What a sorry state it looks like he may have lost all his money, many thousands.

The purchaser has paid his money many weeks ago and has the boat.

Who now is the Legal owner ? What a mess to sort out.

Feeling very sorry for them.

 

 

If a broker goes bust mid transaction, or decides to 'bu**er off to the sunshine' there is no more protection buying from a broker than from a private individual - in fact, maybe less so.

 

 

 

 

Jailed boat salesman cheated customers out of half a million pounds

"You acted without a care for the impact on their lives and that impact was significant."

 

A boat salesman was jailed for four years after netting £480,000 by cheating customers out of their vessels.

David Shakespeare once sent a dud £27,000 cheque when the company accounts contained only 85p, Nottingham Crown Court heard.

 

"Mr Shakespeare's initial response was to legitimately take out a loan which totalled £126,000, secured against assets. However that sum did not suffice so he turned to dishonesty.

"He secured a further loan for £140,000 from a separate company, using as security boats he did not own. They had simply been entrusted to his yard to be sold by him.

"When that amount didn't suffice, he turned to the straightforward theft of selling the boats and keeping the proceeds to himself," said Mr Widoger. Some of the cash was transferred to another firm.

 

Jailed boat salesman cheated customers out of half a million pounds - Nottinghamshire Live (nottinghampost.com)

 

I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. I could sell about ten cruisers off my mooring and the owners probably wouldn't know they'd gone for years. There's one supposedly being fitted out  - though he did come down a year ago and put a fence up round his landing stage. Not a tap done on the boat since it arrived about five years ago.

I think people hugely underestimate both the time and the cost of fitting out a sailaway or doing up a project. It looks so simple on paper.

[john.k]

The law here allows for an item placed for sale with another person,not a licensed agent,to be sold ,converted ,or used without any compensation paid to the owner .......it is  a civil matter of breach of an agreement .

Edited April 14, 2023 by john.k

[enigmatic]

Long before I bought my boat, when considering the idea I saw an absolute bargain nearly new boat (details copied from an Apollo Duck advert)

The little old Scottish widow who wanted a deposit to show I was serious as it was a very long drive to show me the boat had an email address with a Nigerian man's name...