C&RT To remove waste bins from the L&L (BBC news)

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

Top paragraph in story i saw said Yorkshire and the North East, it's just become news for the L&L as Bradford Council has complained about it

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-65075402

 

 

Amazing - that is an identical link to the one in the 1st post, and the reason for the thread.

[Hudds Lad]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Amazing - that is an identical link to the one in the 1st post, and the reason for the thread.

You don't have the monopoly on pasting links do you?

 

Seemed relevant to add it there for quick reference, but sorry if it's upset you 😘

[Dave123]

On 25/03/2023 at 19:21, magnetman said:

Access to the water is needed for everyone not just fuddy duddies with a good pension and people who want cheap housing .

 

It is a leisure amenity. Hiring canoes, dinghies etc could get popular and of course if there were fewer boats moored to towpaths the place is more pleasant for those who might want to have picnics. 

 

More people using towpaths on foot will deal with the cyclist problem by using force of numbers. 

 

Pedestrians need to reclaim the towpaths and block idiot cyclists. 

 

 

Disagree...for many visitors/tourists the boats are the most interesting thing about the canal. Number of times I've been at the end of a line of moored boats and all the tourists and other people out for a wonder stopped and turned back when they reach the end of the line of boats, because there was nothing else interesting to look at when the view became just ducks, muddy water and trees😅

[magnetman]

This is assuming there is nothing else but ducks and muddy water and trees. 

 

If the public could access the water in a variety of different ways themselves then I think they would take the opportunity to do so. 

 

Small boat hire for example. I'm sure canoe hire could be popular or little electric picnic platforms. Obviously this would need quite long pounds and no use of locks. 

[Creaking Gate]

Given some of the behaviours I've witnessed boaters do, they are as much to blame as anyone else.  Throwing bags in to already too full bins, throwing it in the hedge or leaving full bags by gates.   

 

If everyone took some personal responsibility. in theory you would not need any bins at all.   A pipe dream i'd expect.

 

Besides its the fly tipping which costs the money. 

Given some of the behaviours I've witnessed boaters do, they are as much to blame as anyone else.  Throwing bags in to already too full bins, throwing it in the hedge or leaving full bags by gates.   

 

If everyone took some personal responsibility. in theory you would not need any bins at all.   A pipe dream i'd expect.

 

Besides its the fly tipping which costs the money. 

[bigcol]

A council is seeking "urgent discussions" with the Canal & River Trust after a plan was revealed to remove most towpath bins across Yorkshire and the North East.

The charity said it faced "soaring costs" and the move would save money to pay for waterway repairs.

The trust hoped other agencies such as councils could become responsible for providing or maintaining bins.

But Bradford Council described the plan as "a concern" amid its own pressures.

It said cleanliness in the absence of bins would depend on those who walked and cycled on the towpaths carrying litter, or dog mess, away with them.

The charity said it spent £1.4m nationally emptying bins and clearing fly-tipping from canals in 2022. 

A statement said the trust already had many miles of canal where it did not provide litter bins, "including many that have achieved Green Flag Award status".

"Where there are proposals to remove bins, we are first seeking local funding options to adequately service the bins and hope that local partners will step up to help."

'Urgent discussions'

A section of the 127-mile (204km) Leeds and Liverpool Canal, with a popular towpath for walkers, joggers and cyclists, runs through the Bradford district. 

Bradford Council officers have suggested the local authority might not be able to spare staff to traverse the towpath to empty bins on a regular basis.

"This is obviously of concern to us as it will be to residents so we are seeking urgent discussions with the Canal & River Trust," a spokesperson for the local authority said. 

At a recent council meeting, Stuart Russo, a senior technical officer, said the move could put a strain on waste services, which he said were already suffering budget pressures. 

"We're happy to look at if we, as a council, can take bins on," he said.

"But if a bin is going to be half an hour down the towpath, I don't think that's something we'll be able to take on."

Marcus Dearden, a Labour councillor for Bingley, said: "People will think these are council bins that are being removed, so it will be us that gets stick from the public."

 

 

 

[David Mack]

Existing thread

 

[LadyG]

As it is mostly residents rather than boaters who are putting litter in bins I don't think urgent meetings are essential, it costs time and money to hold meetings.

Send them an email with a recorded delivery letter to the CEO with the end date of existing arrangements and wait for a response.

A copy to local press is always an option if one wants to raise awareness as per government guidelines.

The existing bins will either have to be removed or rebranded..

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by LadyG

[peterboat]

11 hours ago, bigcol said:

A council is seeking "urgent discussions" with the Canal & River Trust after a plan was revealed to remove most towpath bins across Yorkshire and the North East.

The charity said it faced "soaring costs" and the move would save money to pay for waterway repairs.

The trust hoped other agencies such as councils could become responsible for providing or maintaining bins.

But Bradford Council described the plan as "a concern" amid its own pressures.

It said cleanliness in the absence of bins would depend on those who walked and cycled on the towpaths carrying litter, or dog mess, away with them.

The charity said it spent £1.4m nationally emptying bins and clearing fly-tipping from canals in 2022. 

A statement said the trust already had many miles of canal where it did not provide litter bins, "including many that have achieved Green Flag Award status".

"Where there are proposals to remove bins, we are first seeking local funding options to adequately service the bins and hope that local partners will step up to help."

'Urgent discussions'

A section of the 127-mile (204km) Leeds and Liverpool Canal, with a popular towpath for walkers, joggers and cyclists, runs through the Bradford district. 

Bradford Council officers have suggested the local authority might not be able to spare staff to traverse the towpath to empty bins on a regular basis.

"This is obviously of concern to us as it will be to residents so we are seeking urgent discussions with the Canal & River Trust," a spokesperson for the local authority said. 

At a recent council meeting, Stuart Russo, a senior technical officer, said the move could put a strain on waste services, which he said were already suffering budget pressures. 

"We're happy to look at if we, as a council, can take bins on," he said.

"But if a bin is going to be half an hour down the towpath, I don't think that's something we'll be able to take on."

Marcus Dearden, a Labour councillor for Bingley, said: "People will think these are council bins that are being removed, so it will be us that gets stick from the public."

 

 

 

I actually agree with this, if you carry the item there you can carry the paper back, hardly a chore? Most young ones will dump it anyway whether a bin is present or not!

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

I actually agree with this, if you carry the item there you can carry the paper back, hardly a chore? Most young ones will dump it anyway whether a bin is present or not!

 

That's reasonable to expect. If I go for a walk in the country, the rubbish comes back.

 

 

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I actually agree with this, if you carry the item there you can carry the paper back, hardly a chore? Most young ones will dump it anyway whether a bin is present or not!

 

Usual lazy stereotyping there, Peter -- my kids and their friends would no more think of spreading litter then I would, and I often see older people like you or I littering.

 

The simple fact is that there are lazy thoughtless gits of all ages who just chuck stuff away instead of taking it home or putting it in a bin... 😞

[SLC]

On the Northampton Arm, much of the litter is cans of high alcohol beer, cider and lager and is predominantly "foreign" beer and spirits. (Thank you to the volunteers that do sterling work clearing it up as well as IWA). There is a contribution to the litter from cyclists, dog owners (pooh bags hidden away) and runners as well as groups of young people. Vandalism is depressing too whether it be damage to defribulators, locks or waste bins. CRT will not do anything - understandable given that on one occasion a local CRT employee or volunteer was seriously injured trying to intervene so is it any wonder the problems persist.

However, the introduction of bins along part of the arm significantly reduced the amount of litter and I find it so frustrating that CRT feel that bins should be the responsibility of someone else when they actually contribute to the ambience and the environmental aspect of the canal side. Likewise the council for not helping the CRT in the matter. Bins do improve the environment and people do use them. They work effectively yet NT and CRT ignore the fact citing cost pressures.

Perhaps the people who contribute to the litter should contribute through their taxes / rates to the CRT so they can remedy the problems that everyday people cause but who feel they should not be part of the solution even though they derive great benefit. Considering the enormous financial contribution canals bring to society (and not just boaters) through the economy such as tourism, nature and the environment and mental welfare (all of which the CRT calculate to be £billions and saves the NHS huge sums of money), isn't it absurd that Councils and Government feel they should not contribute to its maintenance and upkeep?

I am reminded of the dead horse found in a West Midlands river (Stour?) which after 3 weeks is still there because the EA, councils, emergency services etc, feel it is not their responsibility to remove it. Not my responsibility, someone else's job, we don't care. Society has a real problem with this attitude - cannot or will not do. For goodness sake, do something!

Rant over.....

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, SLC said:

Perhaps the people who contribute to the litter should contribute through their taxes / rates to the CRT

 

But they already do - currently taxpayers contribute £50,000,000 per year to C&RT

(C&RT spend £1,400,000 per annum on refuse removal).

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, SLC said:

Society has a real problem with this attitude - cannot or will not do. For goodness sake, do something!

Rant over.....

 

Equally, we humans feel a pressure to get on and "do something", when planning what to do might be better in the circumstances. Sometimes known as "Don't just do something, stand there". 

 

I think I'll make a cake. Thats 'doing something'. But obviously no help in getting the horse out. 

 

 

[SLC]

But the taxpayer element is falling in real terms and that is the quite alarming. It is not enough and £50m is nowhere near the £billion+ the canals save the NHS etc. £50m equates to less than £1 per person per year - £2 per UK tax  payer? Per year?

[Alan de Enfield]

35 minutes ago, SLC said:

But the taxpayer element is falling in real terms and that is the quite alarming. It is not enough and £50m is nowhere near the £billion+ the canals save the NHS etc. £50m equates to less than £1 per person per year - £2 per UK tax  payer? Per year?

 

Indeed it is (curently) not enough, but when C&RT was formed in 2012 they said they would be self-sustaining and would not need any grant well before the grant runs out in 2027.

 

However total mismanagement has resulted in their income not being what they forecast so they are becoming more and more dependent on the DEFRA grant.

One example -since 2012 C&RT have spent more on fund raising (paying chuggers by the hour irrespective of how much they collected, they have 'empire built' a whole new department, and now appointed a very expensive 'Fund Raising Director') Had C&RT not wasted all the money attempting to get donations they would have had many many more millions to spend on the canals.

 

Extracts from C&RTs Business plan :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You will note that it was always C&RTs intention to let the condition of the major assets (the canals) deteriorate over the period - we should not therefore be surprised that they have actually achieved one of their targets.

 

 

 

 

 

The DEFRA Grant payments ..............

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

However total mismanagement has resulted in their income not being what they forecast so they are becoming more and more dependent on the DEFRA grant.

Total mismanagement by CRT over the last decade, or unreasonably optimistic estimates by those who put the deal together in the first place, leading to unachievable objectives?

 

Reminds me of another scenario where we were promised 'sunlit uplands' but the reality has proved rather different.

[magnetman]

As it is often beer cans maybe the companies making enormous profits from producing portable beer should be paying something towards litter management.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Reminds me of another scenario where we were promised 'sunlit uplands' but the reality has proved rather different.

 

Ah now, isn't the argument now that we simply haven't given Brexit long enough to work yet? Meanwhile we are expected to limp along with our GDP 5% down for a decade or two, unable to pay for a decent NHS... 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Total mismanagement by CRT over the last decade, or unreasonably optimistic estimates by those who put the deal together in the first place, leading to unachievable objectives?

 

Surely the writers of the business plan cannot be held responsible for their heirs building an empire of fund raisers that fail to raise more than the department costs to run ?

 After a few years (it has now been 10 years) it should have been obvious that the department was not working and should either have changed tack or been disbanded, or reduced to a size commensurate with its income.

 

Looking at the 1st few years (figures from the C&RT accounts filed at companies house)

 

In the 1st 6 years, their total 'costs of 'Voluntary income' was £5.5 million more than they raised.

In 2018 alone their 'Voluntary income' was £3.4m. Expenditure raising that income was £3.9m, a loss of £500,000. 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

 

 

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

As it is often beer cans maybe the companies making enormous profits from producing portable beer should be paying something towards litter management.

 

 

Which beer companies are making enormous profits then? Some of us must be looking for some shares to park in their new ISAs allowances starting on 6th of this month... 

 

 

[magnetman]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

 

 

Which beer companies are making enormous profits then? Some of us must be looking for some shares to park in their new ISAs allowances starting on 6th of this month... 

 

 

No idea about shares as don't have any but these ones seem to do alright 

 

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Surely the writers of the business plan cannot be held responsible for their heirs building an empire of fund raisers that fail to raise more than the department costs to run ?

 After a few years (it has now been 10 years) it should have been obvious that the department was not working and should either have changed tack or been disbanded, or reduced to a size commensurate with its income.

 

Looking at the 1st few years (figures from the C&RT accounts filed at companies house)

 

In the 1st 6 years, their total 'costs of 'Voluntary income' was £5.5 million more than they raised.

In 2018 alone their 'Voluntary income' was £3.4m. Expenditure raising that income was £3.9m, a loss of £500,000. 

 

 

But £500000 is a drop in the ocean compared to the £50M grant, or the hundreds of millions that the maintenance backlog is estimated at... 😞

 

The plans were wildly over-optimistic back-of-fag-packet estimates designed to try and get CART off the governments books -- there was never any chance in reality of this happening, or CART becoming self-sufficient.

 

Saying this is all down to CART mismanagement is just the usual CART-bashing, they've never had any real chance of achieving what's in "the plan" -- and never will do given the costs of maintaining the canals (large) and possible sources of income for CART (smaller)... 😞

Edited April 3, 2023 by IanD

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

No idea about shares as don't have any but these ones seem to do alright 

 

 

 

Gross profit, lol. Thats the profit on sales before fixed costs like the wage bill are taken off! 

 

Its a bit like saying a new narrowboat can be had for £25k as that is the price of the bare steel shell.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But they already do - currently taxpayers contribute £50,000,000 per year to C&RT

(C&RT spend £1,400,000 per annum on refuse removal).

But is that refuse from boater bin compounds or litter bins along the towpath