what mobile broadband

[IanD]

15 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

I did a whole thread on it: 

 

Its also why I mentioned to take online coverage checkers with a pinch of salt, and to actually try it out in places. For whatever reason (probably being in the base of a valley half the time), canals are weird for coverage and you can get pockets of poor reception (and probably other pockets of excellent).

 

Agree about mobile coverage checkers -- but it's also worth pointing out that your tests don't seem to include EE (generally rated as having the best coverage) and Three is on the mobile (inside boat), so it's not really a fair comparison -- O2 and Vodafone (who you mainly use) are usually at the bottom of the coverage tables, especially in rural areas.

 

13 hours ago, Paul C said:

I think he meant "about up" as in, its a fixed term contract coming to its end, not a price rise.

 

Of course, some providers are raising prices too, that's a separate issue.

 

Personally (for a main mobile phone) the switching process is so easy, I've always kept an eye on prices and switched as/when needed to follow the savings. For a data connection thing, I've never gotten into a long contract and/or always been able to cancel without incurring more costs or credit file markers etc.

 

Of course the problem with short term data contracts is that they can be considerably more expensive than longer term ones, at least with a given supplier, and especially for unlimited data contracts -- which are becoming increasingly desirable nowadays with people using streaming services, especially for TV where more boats are not bothering with a TV aerial at all.

Edited April 4, 2023 by IanD

[Paul C]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Agree about mobile coverage checkers -- but it's also worth pointing out that your tests don't seem to include EE (generally rated as having the best coverage) and Three is on the mobile (inside boat), so it's not really a fair comparison -- O2 and Vodafone (who you mainly use) are usually at the bottom of the coverage tables, especially in rural areas.

Indeed, EE and Three were on my eSIM so not possible to put into a mifi with external aerial. A more thorough test would have been costly to acquire and activate 2 more SIMs.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Indeed, EE and Three were on my eSIM so not possible to put into a mifi with external aerial. A more thorough test would have been costly to acquire and activate 2 more SIMs.

Understood -- but you said "there isn't much difference between networks, I've tested them" as if it was a fact, while having effectively only compared the worst two... 😉

 

Coverage maps do go down to quite small areas and are based on both measurements and modelling; admittedly canals can often have bad spots because of things like trees and obstructions, but then so can anywhere else.

 

I've spent some time delving into them particularly for the Northern canals, and generally speaking EE does seem to have the best coverage, Three are next, O2 and Voda are the worst -- this is looking in detail to see what kinds of signal are available (3G/4G/5G, indoor/outdoor). Given that this cellular mapping data exists (used by BIDB) as does knowledge of where all the canals are (e.g. opencanalmap, canalplan, various others) it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man for somebody to combine these and produce a cellular coverage map for each canal, which could be *very* useful to the modern boater... 🙂

[Tony1]

39 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

EE (generally rated as having the best coverage) and Three is on the mobile (inside boat), so it's not really a fair comparison -- O2 and Vodafone (who you mainly use) are usually at the bottom of the coverage tables, especially in rural areas.

 

 

Thanks for this, its useful info, and is borne out by my own experiences cruising around the Northwest and Wales. And I wasn't aware that Vodafone had one of the poorer coverages.

Other regions may of course vary, but in general I find that EE has a usable signal in significantly more locations than O2. And when they both work, EE usually has a faster speed. So if I had to choose one provider it would be EE.

But as with all of them, there are a few locations where O2 has worked and EE did not, so I will be carrying on with the dual approach. 

It works better for me anyway because I can keep the O2 SIM inside the wifi router 24/7, and keep the EE SIM in my phone. So no messing about swapping SIMs around.  

For people thinking of using a mobile EE SIM to get internet access, I would recommend checking how much of the data allowance you are allowed to use for tethering. I was told I could only use 100Gb of my data for tethering. I looked into that some more on their user forums, and I still never got an answer that I was happy with- so it is a nagging doubt in terms of using only EE. 

A few users were saying there is no problem and you can use the data gifting feature to increase the amount of data used for tethering, but then a couple of users said they were told repeatedly by EE customer services that they could only use 100Gb of their data for tethering- so I dont feel I have an answer I can 100% rely on, and it is something that would stop me using a mobile phone EE SIM in my wifi router. 

O2 dont have such good coverage, but they do allow all 250Gb of my data allowance to be used for tethering without using workarounds, so I find it simpler to carry on with them as the main wifi source for the boat, and I tend to save the EE data allowance for the places where O2 doesnt work.   

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Tony1

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks for this, its useful info, and is borne out by my own experiences cruising around the Northwest and Wales. And I wasn't aware that Vodafone had one of the poorer coverages.

Other regions may of course vary, but in general I find that EE has a usable signal in significantly more locations than O2. And when they both work, EE usually has a faster speed. So if I had to choose one provider it would be EE.

But as with all of them, there are a few locations where O2 has worked and EE did not, so I will be carrying on with the dual approach. 

It works better for me anyway because I can keep the O2 SIM inside the wifi router 24/7, and keep the EE SIM in my phone. So no messing about swapping SIMs around.  

For people thinking of using a mobile EE SIM to get internet access, I would recommend checking how much of the data allowance you are allowed to use for tethering. I was told I could only use 100Gb of my data for tethering. I looked into that some more on their user forums, and I still never got an answer that I was happy with- so it is a nagging doubt in terms of using only EE. 

A few users were saying there is no problem and you can use the data gifting feature to increase the amount of data used for tethering, but then a couple of users said they were told repeatedly by EE customer services that they could only use 100Gb of their data for tethering- so I dont feel I have an answer I can 100% rely on, and it is something that would stop me using a mobile phone EE SIM in my wifi router. 

 

 

The EE data-only SIMs don't have any tethering limit, they do have a fair-use policy (FUP) which is 600GB/month on their "unlimited" plans, but several people (using the scancom SIM) have reported this either isn't enforced or only sometimes.

 

A good external antenna will make a big difference to both data rates and coverage, especially in marginal signal areas -- 6dB more gain (which is possible) means you can be twice as far from the basestation and still get a signal, or that each basestation covers 4x as much area meaning fewer gaps.

 

A dual-SIM router is the ideal solution, but good modern ones are expensive and you have to pay for both SIMs -- I plan to have an EE "main SIM" (unlimited) and one or more cheap "backup SIMs" (much smaller data allowance) to manually swap in for the cases where there's no EE coverage. Or I could just swap in my phone SIM and then tether the phone to the boat Wi-Fi...

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

The EE data-only SIMs don't have any tethering limit, they do have a fair-use policy (FUP) which is 600GB/month on their "unlimited" plans, but several people (using the scancom SIM) have reported this either isn't enforced or only sometimes.

 

A good external antenna will make a big difference to both data rates and coverage, especially in marginal signal areas -- 6dB more gain (which is possible) means you can be twice as far from the basestation and still get a signal, or that each basestation covers 4x as much area meaning fewer gaps.

 

A dual-SIM router is the ideal solution, but good modern ones are expensive and you have to pay for both SIMs -- I plan to have an EE "main SIM" (unlimited) and one or more cheap "backup SIMs" (much smaller data allowance) to manually swap in for the cases where there's no EE coverage. Or I could just swap in my phone SIM and then tether the phone to the boat Wi-Fi...

 

I find that in places where my O2 SIM (held in the router) doesnt work, the EE SIM in my phone almost always does give some signal.

It can get patchy in some locations, but I've never yet had to put the EE phone SIM into the router so that it can use the aerial.

So far its been usable almost everywhere just sat within the phone, although it has been hung up in a window a few times. In fact, sometimes the EE SIM gives better speed when sat inside my phone on a worktop, than the O2 SIM gives with a 6ft mast and aerial. 

But none of them cover everywhere, so I would agree with your approach of having a cheap backup from a different provider. In that respect, O2 and EE seem to compliment each other well, as a 'team' of SIMs. 

 

[doratheexplorer]

On 02/04/2023 at 17:34, robtheplod said:

We use Vodafone, but not heard anyone else on the forum does......

I used to use Vodafone.  I've tried pretty much all the carriers and Vodafone was probably the best, along with EE.  EE nudges it for coverage, but Vodafone has consistently better speed (so long as you choose a contract which doesn't restrict speeds).  A couple of months ago i was tempted onto a new O2 contract for a very cheap price, and it's terrible.  Very patchy coverage, and unreliable speeds, often dropping out to zero.  Three coverage is ok, but their speeds are poor, but they're cheap.  The main problem with Three is their customer service when something goes wrong.  None of the networks are much good in that area, but Three are on a whole different level of terrible.

 

When my current contract expires, I'll be returning to Vodafone probably.

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I find that in places where my O2 SIM (held in the router) doesnt work, the EE SIM in my phone almost always does give some signal.

It can get patchy in some locations, but I've never yet had to put the EE phone SIM into the router so that it can use the aerial.

So far its been usable almost everywhere just sat within the phone, although it has been hung up in a window a few times. In fact, sometimes the EE SIM gives better speed when sat inside my phone on a worktop, than the O2 SIM gives with a 6ft mast and aerial. 

But none of them cover everywhere, so I would agree with your approach of having a cheap backup from a different provider. In that respect, O2 and EE seem to compliment each other well, as a 'team' of SIMs. 

 

...which suggests that an EE SIM inside the router would be better still... 😉

 

My phone is currently Plusnet (EE) which is less good than EE in rural areas (missing a band) or cities (no 5G) -- but my wife's is GiffGaff (O2) so that's a good option.

[Tony1]

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

...which suggests that an EE SIM inside the router would be better still... 😉

 

My phone is currently Plusnet (EE) which is less good than EE in rural areas (missing a band) or cities (no 5G) -- but my wife's is GiffGaff (O2) so that's a good option.

 

Yes, it did occur to me that an EE SIM with the help of a 6ft mast might give almost 100% coverage, but I suspect a different provider's SIM might still be worth having as a backup option (albeit an option you'll very seldom need). 

I think when my contracts are up I'll get a data-only EE SIM for the router, and an O2 SIM for my phone. The number of times I'll have to put the O2 phone SIM into the router will hopefully be so few that I wont mind the faffing around. 

 

 

29 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I used to use Vodafone.  I've tried pretty much all the carriers and Vodafone was probably the best, along with EE.  EE nudges it for coverage, but Vodafone has consistently better speed (so long as you choose a contract which doesn't restrict speeds).  A couple of months ago i was tempted onto a new O2 contract for a very cheap price, and it's terrible.  Very patchy coverage, and unreliable speeds, often dropping out to zero.  Three coverage is ok, but their speeds are poor, but they're cheap.  The main problem with Three is their customer service when something goes wrong.  None of the networks are much good in that area, but Three are on a whole different level of terrible.

 

When my current contract expires, I'll be returning to Vodafone probably.

 

I'm wondering what provider to use for my next mobile phone SIM (and this SIM will also act as a backup to put into the router in places where the EE SIM isnt usable). 

Based on your comment above about customer services I think I'm going to rule out 3, and I dont want to use one of the cheaper providers who just piggyback on other networks, so I think my options are O2 and vodafone. 

So far I've been thinking O2 because its sort of OK in most places I've been. And Ian's research indicates that O2 have slightly wider coverage than Vodafone. 

But that was with the help of an aerial, and there are clearly some areas like your where O2 is very poor, so its not a straightforward decision. 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Tony1

[jonathanA]

41 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I used to use Vodafone.  I've tried pretty much all the carriers and Vodafone was probably the best, along with EE.  EE nudges it for coverage, but Vodafone has consistently better speed (so long as you choose a contract which doesn't restrict speeds).  A couple of months ago i was tempted onto a new O2 contract for a very cheap price, and it's terrible.  Very patchy coverage, and unreliable speeds, often dropping out to zero.  Three coverage is ok, but their speeds are poor, but they're cheap.  The main problem with Three is their customer service when something goes wrong.  None of the networks are much good in that area, but Three are on a whole different level of terrible.

 

When my current contract expires, I'll be returning to Vodafone probably.

I agree  my experience has always been that vodafone has better rural coverage than most others. That said 10 years ago when we first started boating on the remote stretches of the L&L I had a back up 'orange' sim but gave that up years ago as 4G/5G coverage has improved.

 

I now have a cheap router with a 5/8 mag mount antenna outside (also cheap <£10) and a £10/month 140GB/month Vodafone sim (true sim calls, text, data)  which even at our mooring (valley floor, surrounded by hills) gives a good signal and bandwidth to allow me to work (teams, O365 etc) and stream TV.  

 

do be careful of the Voda 'unlimited' data deals which cap the download speeds. One thing to watch with Vodafone is they do use the 2600 Mhz band which most other carriers don't, so if using an external antenna make sure it goes that high, a lot of the cheap and/or high gain externals top out at 2.4 or 2.5 Ghz. 

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, jonathanA said:

a £10/month 140GB/month Vodafone sim (true sim calls, text, data)  

Do you have further details of this deal? I can’t see it on vodaphones website.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

Yes, it did occur to me that an EE SIM with the help of a 6ft mast might give almost 100% coverage, but I suspect a different provider's SIM might still be worth having as a backup option (albeit an option you'll very seldom need). 

I think when my contracts are up I'll get a data-only EE SIM for the router, and an O2 SIM for my phone. The number of times I'll have to put the O2 phone SIM into the router will hopefully be so few that I wont mind the faffing around. 

 

 

 

I'm wondering what provider to use for my next mobile phone SIM (and this SIM will also act as a backup to put into the router in places where the EE SIM isnt usable). 

Based on your comment above about customer services I think I'm going to rule out 3, and I dont want to use one of the cheaper providers who just piggyback on other networks, so I think my options are O2 and vodafone. 

So far I've been thinking O2 because its sort of OK in most places I've been. And Ian's research indicates that O2 have slightly wider coverage than Vodafone. 

But that was with the help of an aerial, and there are clearly some areas like your where O2 is very poor, so its not a straightforward decision. 

 

 

GiffGaff are O2, and a cheap flexible solution with no contract (like Smarty).

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

I dont want to use one of the cheaper providers who just piggyback on other networks, so I think my options are O2 and vodafone. 

 

 

 

That’s fair enough, but by doing so you’re missing out on the best prices. Of course, it would need to be smooth running to not need customer services but that’s been my experience with sone so far. And if the process isn’t smooth, just move.

[jonathanA]

25 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Do you have further details of this deal? I can’t see it on vodaphones website.

it was basically a £20/month deal, but they offered me a £10/month discount for 2 years as I was already a customer and took this as a 'new'connection.   note its a fixed amount off (£10) not a 50% off.  Think I actually spoke to someone as originally I was looking at 'upgrading' an existing sim and they suggested the £20quid  package for a tenner.    

[Tony1]

2 hours ago, Paul C said:

That’s fair enough, but by doing so you’re missing out on the best prices. Of course, it would need to be smooth running to not need customer services but that’s been my experience with sone so far. And if the process isn’t smooth, just move.

 

To be fair, I think my negative attitude toward the piggyback providers is probably out of date. I used the original 3 when they first set up about 20 years ago (I think they piggybacked on the O2 network in those early days). The service was very patchy indeed, and about 30% of calls attempted just dropped before making a connection, because the O2 customers obviously took priority over the 3 customers. I've avoided those providers ever since (and 3 in particular), but clearly they do provide acceptable service, or they wouldn't be so popular. 

Being cheap is only useful if things actually work, and in my early experiences it didn't work at all well.

I like the sound of giffgaff if its a good bit cheaper than O2, and I believe Ian's missus would definitely not use a poor quality provider.

But if its a similar price then my thinking is that you might as well just use O2 rather than the piggyback provider. 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Tony1

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

To be fair, I think my negative attitude toward the piggyback providers is probably out of date. I used the original 3 when they first set up about 20 years ago (I think they piggybacked on the O2 network in those early days). The service was very patchy indeed, and about 30% of calls attempted just dropped before making a connection, because the O2 customers obviously took priority over the 3 customers. I've avoided those providers ever since (and 3 in particular), but clearly they do provide acceptable service, or they wouldn't be so popular. 

Being cheap is only useful if things actually work, and in my early experiences it didn't work at all well.

I like the sound of giffgaff if its a good bit cheaper than O2, and I believe Ian's missus would definitely not use a poor quality provider.

But if its a similar price then my thinking is that you might as well just use O2 rather than the piggyback provider. 

 

The piggyback MVNOs like Smarty and Giffgaff regularly come out ahead of the network providers in customer satisfaction surveys -- from Which magazine:

 

[rusty69]

44 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

To be fair, I think my negative attitude toward the piggyback providers is probably out of date. I used the original 3 when they first set up about 20 years ago (I think they piggybacked on the O2 network in those early days). The service was very patchy indeed, and about 30% of calls attempted just dropped before making a connection, because the O2 customers obviously took priority over the 3 customers. I've avoided those providers ever since (and 3 in particular), but clearly they do provide acceptable service, or they wouldn't be so popular. 

Being cheap is only useful if things actually work, and in my early experiences it didn't work at all well.

I like the sound of giffgaff if its a good bit cheaper than O2, and I believe Ian's missus would definitely not use a poor quality provider.

But if its a similar price then my thinking is that you might as well just use O2 rather than the piggyback provider. 

 

Giffgaff is fine. I've been using them for over a decade.

[Tony1]

30 minutes ago, IanD said:

The piggyback MVNOs like Smarty and Giffgaff regularly come out ahead of the network providers in customer satisfaction surveys -- from Which magazine:

 

 

Thanks Ian, thats really interesting info. 

My own takeaway from those figures is that although the likes of O2 and vodafone get worse scores for value, the customer service ratings are not too dissimilar. So if I can tolerate O2 and EE customer service, maybe I can also tolerate 3, which has the same three star rating for that aspect,

 Since smarty doesnt have a customer service score, I cant know what to think about it, but both Tesco mobile and Sky have a four star rating. I will not use any Sky product or service because the owner is (in my view) a massively destructive fascist monster, so I'm left with Tesco mobile as the most appealing option. 

Since they all seem to provide acceptable/functional call services, customer service seems to be main way to differentiate them. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Since smarty doesnt have a customer service score, I cant know what to think about it

 

 

You could read that as they don't offer any customer service (NA = Non Available) being simply a reseller they can do nothing to improve the service. Very similar to when you get your 'landline' from the likes of  "Plusnet", when you get a poor line you call them and they say "sorry we can do nothing as BT / Open Reach are responsible, we will ask them to raise a work order and we will let you know when they get back to us"

[StephenA]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

Understood -- but you said "there isn't much difference between networks, I've tested them" as if it was a fact, while having effectively only compared the worst two... 😉

 

Coverage maps do go down to quite small areas and are based on both measurements and modelling; admittedly canals can often have bad spots because of things like trees and obstructions, but then so can anywhere else.

 

I've spent some time delving into them particularly for the Northern canals, and generally speaking EE does seem to have the best coverage, Three are next, O2 and Voda are the worst -- this is looking in detail to see what kinds of signal are available (3G/4G/5G, indoor/outdoor). Given that this cellular mapping data exists (used by BIDB) as does knowledge of where all the canals are (e.g. opencanalmap, canalplan, various others) it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man for somebody to combine these and produce a cellular coverage map for each canal, which could be *very* useful to the modern boater... 🙂

 

You could always suggest it as an improvement to canalplan - each place could have a little block showing carriers and the Voice/Data availability.. If the data is easily available and scrapeable

Edited April 4, 2023 by StephenA

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, StephenA said:

 

You could always suggest it as an improvement to canalplan - each place could have a little block showing carriers and the Voice/Data availability.. If the data is easily available and scrapeable

Its not...........in my tests, bizarrely, one of the main factors in coverage was time of day!!

[Tony1]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You could read that as they don't offer any customer service (NA = Non Available) being simply a reseller they can do nothing to improve the service. Very similar to when you get your 'landline' from the likes of  "Plusnet", when you get a poor line you call them and they say "sorry we can do nothing as BT / Open Reach are responsible, we will ask them to raise a work order and we will let you know when they get back to us"

 

That plusnet approach can't be common to all the piggybackers, surely? 

I cant imagine tesco mobile trying that with customers, and still getting such high customer service scores? 

But either way, without a visible score for smarty, I won't be using them. Tesco do look very impressive. 

 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

...which suggests that an EE SIM inside the router would be better still... 😉

 

My phone is currently Plusnet (EE) which is less good than EE in rural areas (missing a band) or cities (no 5G) -- but my wife's is GiffGaff (O2) so that's a good option.

 

This is interesting.

 

Please expand, I've previously considered switching to Plusnet as they piggy back EE who I have found to be excellent.

 

I was thinking one would get the same coverage and speed but you suggest no, one (I'm from Yorkshire but obviously from the posh end) wouldn't. 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by M_JG

[Rob-M]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

That plusnet approach can't be common to all the piggybackers, surely? 

I cant imagine tesco mobile trying that with customers, and still getting such high customer service scores? 

But either way, without a visible score for smarty, I won't be using them. Tesco do look very impressive. 

 

 

Tesco mobile customer service has been excellent when we have contacted them.

[doratheexplorer]

15 hours ago, IanD said:

The piggyback MVNOs like Smarty and Giffgaff regularly come out ahead of the network providers in customer satisfaction surveys -- from Which magazine:

 

These sort of customer satisfaction surveys usually put less well known and cheaper options at the top.  The reason is simple, their customers have low expectations and demands, because they're cheap, but then are pleasantly surprised.  It doesn't means they're actually better. 

 

The most perplexing thing on this table is O2 being the highest of the main carriers. 

14 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks Ian, thats really interesting info. 

My own takeaway from those figures is that although the likes of O2 and vodafone get worse scores for value, the customer service ratings are not too dissimilar. So if I can tolerate O2 and EE customer service, maybe I can also tolerate 3, which has the same three star rating for that aspect,

 Since smarty doesnt have a customer service score, I cant know what to think about it, but both Tesco mobile and Sky have a four star rating. I will not use any Sky product or service because the owner is (in my view) a massively destructive fascist monster, so I'm left with Tesco mobile as the most appealing option. 

Since they all seem to provide acceptable/functional call services, customer service seems to be main way to differentiate them. 

 

 

If you're thinking of, who I think you're thinking of.  I don't think he has any involvement with Sky any more.  Sky is owned by Comcast, which is owned by its shareholders and he doesn't appear on the board of directors.