Several boats set to be removed from Bridgwater & Taunton Canal

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

It's a valid question, but it looks as if there are very few possibilities which could actually be closed *and* would save CART any significant money -- all the relatively big expensive-to-maintain ones (Rochdale, HNC, K&A, M&B, L&L, Llangollen...) can't realistically be closed for one reason or another, ....

 

Out of interest why do you think the K&A could not be closed? 

 

One interesting statistic in terms of costs to the navigation authority could be the expense of dealing with unauthorised overstaying and people who don't license their boats. 

 

I wonder if figures are collected for each waterway. 

 

It -appears- that the CRT can ask for certain waterways to be transferred to the remainder. 

 

Is there a particular reason why this would not happen with the K&A? 

 

 

[magpie patrick]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

 

 

Is there a particular reason why this would not happen with the K&A? 

 

 

 At the Western End it must be one of the busiest in the country for hire boats, and even if you wish to look at the CC users, the vast majority of them are fully paid up licensed etc and stick to the rules. 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Is there a particular reason why this would not happen with the K&A?

 

One wonders why it was recently upgraded to cruiseway status, and who was the driving force behind the upgrade. 

 

 

[magpie patrick]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Out of interest why do you think the K&A could not be closed? 

 

 

 In fact, overall I'm not sure why you think the K&A is a candidate, none of it is exactly underused, just some bits are quieter than others

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

One wonders why it was recently upgraded to cruiseway status, and who was the driving force behind the upgrade. 

 

 

 

The K&A society worked hard on cruiseway status, and I would think it was upgraded because its a busy canal full of moving boats. Bradford on Avon lock is usually towards the top of the CRT lockage list.

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 At the Western End it must be one of the busiest in the country for hire boats, and even if you wish to look at the CC users, the vast majority of them are fully paid up licensed etc and stick to the rules. 

 

That's certainly not the impression given by articles in the press and online and the NBTA and posts on CWDF -- certainly not as far as "sticking to the (CC) rules" is concerned... 😉

[magpie patrick]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

That's certainly not the impression given by articles in the press and online and the NBTA and posts on CWDF -- certainly not as far as "sticking to the (CC) rules" is concerned... 😉

 

As someone who walks several miles of the canal most weeks I assure you that most of the boats move - many also go on the river (at least in Summer) and up the locks at Devizes (and back down again some weeks later) 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

As someone who walks several miles of the canal most weeks I assure you that most of the boats move - many also go on the river (at least in Summer) and up the locks at Devizes (and back down again some weeks later) 

No doubt what you see is correct as far as it goes. Whether that applies over the whole of the Western K&A and whether the boat movements are far enough to meet the CC rules is another matter, and given everything in the press and online (and posted on CWDF) in recent years (NBTA "think of the children!" etc) it certainly looks like a significant number of boats don't do this.

 

I travel along the towpath into London -- where boating pressures are similar to the K&A as far as I can tell -- several times a week, and I can guarantee that plenty of boats here certainly don't... 😞

Edited March 29, 2023 by IanD

[dmr]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

That's certainly not the impression given by articles in the press and online and the NBTA and posts on CWDF -- certainly not as far as "sticking to the (CC) rules" is concerned... 😉

I think "boats moves often and obeys the rules" does not make a good story so does not get reported in the press. Sady this forum is not a good or reliable source of information where the K&A is concerned. The NBTA does routinely take the side of the rulebreakers which is sad as it does have the potential to be a good boating organisation.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

 Very good, the Coat Faerie is on his way...  

 

I mean, I am struggling to find three locks on the Ashby Canal unless the one at Moira counts as two, or possibly all three?

There is a brand new stop lock at the present terminus, have you considered that one in your calculation.

[magpie patrick]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

I travel along the towpath into London -- where boating pressures are similar to the K&A as far as I can tell -- several times a week, and I can guarantee that plenty of boats here certainly don't... 😞

 

Last time I saw around London it was a lot worse than the K&A is now. On the K&A there is usually space available at the various favoured locations, and on the two lengths I walk most often (about 3 miles either side of Dundas) there is a regular ebb and flow of a variety of boats, to the extent that sometimes the canal towards Winsley is almost empty of boats, and sometimes popular but never quite full. Breasting up doesn't happen, it doesn't need to

 

Or put it another way, if you want to move, there is somewhere to go to

10 minutes ago, dmr said:

 Sady this forum is not a good or reliable source of information where the K&A is concerned. 

 Judging by the way this thread kicked off, the forum is even worse as a source of info for the B&T! But I agree, few people on here "know" the K&A 

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

There is a brand new stop lock at the present terminus, have you considered that one in your calculation.

 

 Pedant alert - that's not a lock!

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

Last time I saw around London it was a lot worse than the K&A is now. On the K&A there is usually space available at the various favoured locations, and on the two lengths I walk most often (about 3 miles either side of Dundas) there is a regular ebb and flow of a variety of boats, to the extent that sometimes the canal towards Winsley is almost empty of boats, and sometimes popular but never quite full. Breasting up doesn't happen, it doesn't need to

 

Or put it another way, if you want to move, there is somewhere to go to

 Judging by the way this thread kicked off, the forum is even worse as a source of info for the B&T! But I agree, few people on here "know" the K&A 

 Pedant alert - that's not a lock!

 

I don't know the K&A but I thought the most congested areas were further west than where you walk near Dundas?

 

The issue with some boats on the K&A -- according to the NBTA -- appears to be that they don't *want* to move (schools, work, family...) not that there's nowhere for them to move to... 😉

[TGweeder]

On 28/03/2023 at 12:43, magnetman said:

1968 Transport act section 104. 

 

The CRT have no obligation to maintain this waterway as it is a remainder waterway. 

 

Could the move to extract the boats without moorings be a precusor to withdrawing maintenance completely? 

 

It has been mentioned earlier on but it seems the relevant topic here. 

 

Is the Bridgwater and Taunton canal about to fall into disuse? 

Could this be a precedent for other remainder waterways. 

Could it fall into disuse? 

Yes,

Is it likely, considering new home moorings for the original docks boats have in the last 6 months have been identified and approved? 

I very much doubt it. 

It isn't a recognised navigation on paper and I am aware the iwa are constantly requesting it to be upgraded. 

But it is active enough that things keep moving, lock's and bridge's keep being repaired so all the signs are very positive. 

[magpie patrick]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I don't know the K&A but I thought the most congested areas were further west than where you walk near Dundas?

 

 Not really - still gaps all the way - I do cycle that bit (and occasionally walk it) as taking a car into Bath is bit of a pain if I'm coming back to the boat afterwards

 

BTW three miles either way gets me 3/4 of the way to Bath! 

 

The most congested is probably round Bradford (I seldom walk from the boat to Bradford, but I do visit Bradford quite a lot) 

 

 

[dmr]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I don't know the K&A but I thought the most congested areas were further west than where you walk near Dundas?

 

The issue with some boats on the K&A -- according to the NBTA -- appears to be that they don't *want* to move (schools, work, family...) not that there's nowhere for them to move to... 😉

 

When you get your boat you could go and spend a winter on the K&A and make more informed posts (and visit a few interesting pubs too). Bath is the busy spot but thats hire boats as much as liveaboards, though there are a lot of boats just above Bath. Bradford on Avon, well to the East of Dundas, is probably  the heart of the "community" but this is mostly because there is a very long stretch of good mooring from BoA all the way down to Avoncliff.  There are several other popular spots between BoA and the flight, then a whole separate boaty universe on the long pound.

My knowledge is a bit out of date since I moved to the "Northern Arm" of the K&A (Rochdale) but I doubt much has changed apart from even more boats.

Last time I was there there was plenty of movement in the BoA area with boats constantly coming and going and mostly keeping off the main visitor moorings.

It is of course the small number of bad rule breakers who get the publicity, just like in the real world.

 

[magnetman]

When I did winter of 2001/2002 down there we spent a fair bit of time around Limpley Stoke. It was busy. We were cc ers. 

 

 

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

When you get your boat you could go and spend a winter on the K&A and make more informed posts (and visit a few interesting pubs too). Bath is the busy spot but thats hire boats as much as liveaboards, though there are a lot of boats just above Bath. Bradford on Avon, well to the East of Dundas, is probably  the heart of the "community" but this is mostly because there is a very long stretch of good mooring from BoA all the way down to Avoncliff.  There are several other popular spots between BoA and the flight, then a whole separate boaty universe on the long pound.

My knowledge is a bit out of date since I moved to the "Northern Arm" of the K&A (Rochdale) but I doubt much has changed apart from even more boats.

Last time I was there there was plenty of movement in the BoA area with boats constantly coming and going and mostly keeping off the main visitor moorings.

It is of course the small number of bad rule breakers who get the publicity, just like in the real world.

 

 

I did say that I don't have direct knowledge of the K&A and can only go by what I read here and elsewhere -- and your last line is undoubtedly correct... 😞 

 

What I do know is that the CC (and mooring) rules are routinely ignored by large number of boats in London -- based on my regular observations, not hearsay -- and it seems likely that the K&A has the same problem. Maybe that's just the bad boaters making a lot of noise, but it's a problem that has been pointed out so many times in so many places that I have difficulty believing that it doesn't exist, even if maybe it's not as bad as is sometimes made out -- or here in London... 😉

Edited March 29, 2023 by IanD

[enigmatic]

6 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Yes I had in the back of my mind there was a reason NOT to start with the Rochdale which is why I said 'probably'. Should have said 'possibly'! 

 

Maybe a better candidate for the next abandonment after the B&T might be the far end of the Ashby. Start by getting it declared a SSSI which would be a first class excuse to stop maintaining it as a navigation.

 

Much of that end already is an SSSI with signs discouraging mooring etc. But the Canal Association has foiled that plan by continuing to dig beyond it!

 

Think the Ashby's probably quite low on the list of ones likely to die off: it's low maintenance and was actually surprisingly busy when I visited in Feb. I guess the main thing that could kill the far end would be structural problems with the tunnel (can't see the CRT funding expensive non-routine repairs to a structure that currently only connects to a single visitor mooring and a mile of private canal).

 

Would think there's a few bits of the BCN that could get dropped (or the maintenance requirement passed off to the local council) first, possibly without most boaters even noticing.

 

 

4 hours ago, Graham Davis said:

That would cause a huge battle with both the Brecon Beacons National Park Authority and the Welsh Government.

 

I imagine that if the CRT wanted to let it go, the Welsh Government would be the party they'd try to drop the responsibility for maintaining and licensing it onto...

 

 

 

 

[Paul C]

Its probably the bridges which are more of an issue than locks, for an ongoing maintenance cost point of view. So lockless stretches of canals aren't immune.

[David Mack]

15 minutes ago, IanD said:

What I do know is that the CC (and mooring) rules are routinely ignored by large number of boats in London

Actually, I'm not sure that is the case. The actual 'rules' which have legal force are set out in the 1995 Act, and are so wooly that nobody can give a watertight legally binding interpretation as to the boundary between what is and what isn't permitted. In the past BW/CRT have tried to set clearer rules, but have been challenged in the courts and have been forced to back down. The result is that only the worst offenders can be dealt with under the 'rules' and almost everybody else can stay just on the right side of CRT's minimum expectations and get away with it. 

That may not be the position that was intended when the Act was passed, but it has gone on for so long now that it has become accepted practice, and probably nothing short of an amendment to the 1995 Act can alter that.

[dmr]

16 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I did say that I don't have direct knowledge of the K&A and can only go by what I read here and elsewhere -- and your last line is undoubtedly correct... 😞 

 

What I do know is that the CC (and mooring) rules are routinely ignored by large number of boats in London -- based on my regular observations, not hearsay -- and it seems likely that the K&A has the same problem. Maybe that's just the bad boaters making a lot of noise, but it's a problem that has been pointed out so many times in so many places that I have difficulty believing that it doesn't exist, even if maybe it's not as bad as is sometimes made out -- or here in London... 😉

 

I have no experience of London, I wanted to visit and have a look but have changed my mind. However from what I have read (pots and kettles 😀) I suspect that London is very different to the K&A, just like how "London is a small country somewhere near England" but the K&A is at the end (or beginning) of the gentle West Country. I think that many K&A boaters have an interest in boating or at least the boating community, whilst a lot of London boaters just want somewhere affordable to Live.   I did meet a bloke (on the Kennet rather than London) who said "the rules apply to you because boating is your hobby, but I am here out of necessity so the rules don't apply to me"  and I suspect there is some truth in that.

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Actually, I'm not sure that is the case. The actual 'rules' which have legal force are set out in the 1995 Act, and are so wooly that nobody can give a watertight legally binding interpretation as to the boundary between what is and what isn't permitted. In the past BW/CRT have tried to set clearer rules, but have been challenged in the courts and have been forced to back down. The result is that only the worst offenders can be dealt with under the 'rules' and almost everybody else can stay just on the right side of CRT's minimum expectations and get away with it. 

That may not be the position that was intended when the Act was passed, but it has gone on for so long now that it has become accepted practice, and probably nothing short of an amendment to the 1995 Act can alter that.

 

I'm absolutely sure that is the case, because I see it on a daily basis.

 

There are boats that haven't moved for more than a year and have basically set up shop on the towpath, there are others that haven't moved for months, disappear for a couple of weeks and then come back to the same spot for months more, and there are others which never leave the Paddington arm -- I've been cycling this stretch of towpath several times a week for about two years. Synchronised mooring swapping using walkie-talkies -- but not moving far enough to meet the CC rules -- is also common, I see this regularly.

 

There is no conceivable circumstance under which these boats can claim to be CCers. I do know there have also been many excuses used such as engine failure, or birds nesting in tyre fenders, or even selling the boat for £1 to somebody else so CART have to start enforcement all over again, and then repeating this ad infinitum.

 

If by "accepted practice" you mean "lots of people ignoring the rules" then I would dispute the word "accepted" -- by who? Certainly not by CART, big their problem is detecting and enforcing this not agreeing that it's OK to do it, the only people who think this are the rulebreakers (and the NBTA)... 😞

Edited March 29, 2023 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

The K&A society worked hard on cruiseway status, and I would think it was upgraded because

‘Cruiseway status’ is a new term to me.

Can you tell me what that’s all about then please?

 

[magnetman]

"Reasonable in the circumstances" is probably the phrase which torpedoed the ability of navigation authority to deal with things effectively. 

 

 

 

 

[matty40s]

4 minutes ago, Goliath said:

‘Cruiseway status’ is a new term to me.

Can you tell me what that’s all about then please?

 

It means everyone on the K&A loves to cruise....

Oh!!