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Several boats set to be removed from Bridgwater & Taunton Canal


Paul C

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 I think BW and early CRT were guilty of letting some moorings go rather below market value. They are catching up now and this will probably extend to things other than permanent moorings in the form of extra charges and more stringent movement requirements for people who opt to not have moorings under the allowance provided by the rather badly worded '95 act.  

 

I don't know the area on the B&T (1 hour drive from brizzle?) but there seem to be people living there in flats so having residential boats would presumably be a positive if it was done right. 

 

Having said that and I mentioned it earlier it is possible to have a very nice environment using former docks and leaving them completely empty. Nothing there. 

 

Empty pontoons are a bit depressing. Get rid of empty pontoons. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

Thank you for the update, and glad things are looking better than the original article implied!

 

I know the canal well having boated the full length many times, and interesting to hear the latest developments. I assume the boaters facilities are being reinstated at the docks during the redevelopment? Are there still facilities at the YMCA?

 

It's nice to see the occasional boat in unexpected places when I come back 'home' to visit the area - have to get our day boat out on the canal again!

Ymca pontoon has boats moored, facilities wise are what's available in the center itself so members access, 

 

LOWER MAUNSEL has toilets ans elsan no shower, 

 

Bathpool has toilets shower and elsan. 

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16 minutes ago, TGweeder said:

Ymca pontoon has boats moored, facilities wise are what's available in the center itself so members access, 

 

LOWER MAUNSEL has toilets ans elsan no shower, 

 

Bathpool has toilets shower and elsan. 

YMCA used to have separate boaters facilities - toilet, elsan, (and shower?) accessed via bw key. Shane if they've gone as were always well kept and clean.

 

Bathpool still being built when I used to boat there regularly!

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I had a virtual cruise on the canal earlier using the google maps streetview and uploaded photos. 

 

Looks nice. 

 

Other than the fact that they live in houses rather than boats I do often think that people who have trailer boats and park them in the driveway are actually really quite clever. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, magnetman said:

 I think BW and early CRT were guilty of letting some moorings go rather below market value. They are catching up now and this will probably extend to things other than permanent moorings in the form of extra charges and more stringent movement requirements for people who opt to not have moorings under the allowance provided by the rather badly worded '95 act.  


 

 

It's odd that the use of "market value" to price anything always seems to mean it  gets more expensive.

Of course, if you've got a monopoly, or control of supply, the whole concept is meaningless.

As an example, most of the online moorings on my canal are run by CRT, who set the EOG charge for those of us not on theirs at half what they consider the "market rate". Strangely, this market rate is four times what other providers charge. Under the market theory, the two rates should, over time, equalise. They don't. The alternative providers rate remains constant, CRT's continually increases.

Any economic argument that contains the phrase "market value" or "supply and demand curve" is essentially illiterate. They're just words used to whitewash someone's reasons to charge you more.

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6 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's odd that the use of "market value" to price anything always seems to mean it  gets more expensive.

Of course, if you've got a monopoly, or control of supply, the whole concept is meaningless.

As an example, most of the online moorings on my canal are run by CRT, who set the EOG charge for those of us not on theirs at half what they consider the "market rate". Strangely, this market rate is four times what other providers charge. Under the market theory, the two rates should, over time, equalise. They don't. The alternative providers rate remains constant, CRT's continually increases.

Any economic argument that contains the phrase "market value" or "supply and demand curve" is essentially illiterate. They're just words used to whitewash someone's reasons to charge you more.


CRT don’t use “market value “ - they might say they do, but they don’t. And you’re right, sometimes in some areas it is not possible to determine what it is, or indeed if there is one anyway. A bit like unique items such as one off works of art, etc.

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4 minutes ago, Lady C said:

Perhaps it is what the market will pay.  I think you said your moorings are full?  

 

Indeed. 

 

And the another question which would help arrive at a market value is what proportion of these supposedly overpriced CRT moorings are occupied?

 

All empty? All full? If mostly occupied but not quite all, this would imply CRT pricing is about right.

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41 minutes ago, Lady C said:

Perhaps it is what the market will pay.  I think you said your moorings are full?  

Well, of course they are. They are a quarter of what CRT charge for the same thing, as are the other moorings at about the same rate! Luckily, some landlords don't think it necessay to gouge their customers by charging unnecessarily high rates, just because they can - they'd rather charge a fair rate for what they provide while getting a decent return.

Certainly not an attitude generally held by landlords, but maybe we'd all be better off if it were (probably including the gouging landlords, who would have a sustainable business instead of causing social problems for which they accept no responsibility - they, as ever, being a mess for someone else to clear up).

40 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Indeed. 

 

And the another question which would help arrive at a market value is what proportion of these supposedly overpriced CRT moorings are occupied?

 

All empty? All full? If mostly occupied but not quite all, this would imply CRT pricing is about right.

Nonsense. You could make exactly the same argument re my moorings, which would therefore imply he'd got the market rate right and CRT's are miles too high. My point is that market value is a nonsense, especially where one business has a monopoly. There is simply no such thing - it's an excuse used by those who want to rip their customers off.

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4 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 

Nonsense. You could make exactly the same argument re my moorings, which would therefore imply he'd got the market rate right and CRT's are miles too high. My point is that market value is a nonsense, especially where one business has a monopoly. There is simply no such thing - it's an excuse used by those who want to rip their customers off.

 

Ah the aging hippy, class warrior shyte emerges once again!!

 

CRT however, clearly do not have a monopoly on moorings in your area, so my comments are perfectly valid.

 

 

 

 

Edited by MtB
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39 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Well, of course they are. They are a quarter of what CRT charge for the same thing, as are the other moorings at about the same rate! Luckily, some landlords don't think it necessay to gouge their customers by charging unnecessarily high rates, just because they can - they'd rather charge a fair rate for what they provide while getting a decent return.

Certainly not an attitude generally held by landlords, but maybe we'd all be better off if it were (probably including the gouging landlords, who would have a sustainable business instead of causing social problems for which they accept no responsibility - they, as ever, being a mess for someone else to clear up).

Nonsense. You could make exactly the same argument re my moorings, which would therefore imply he'd got the market rate right and CRT's are miles too high. My point is that market value is a nonsense, especially where one business has a monopoly. There is simply no such thing - it's an excuse used by those who want to rip their customers off.

My moorings are cheap Arthur well below the rate charged in Sheffield but the same as Iclles and waddingtons in eastwood, CRT are eye wateringly expensive and have vacancies which is no surprise

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5 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Ah the aging hippy, class warrior shyte emerges once again!!

 

CRT however, clearly do not have a monopoly on moorings in your area, so my comments are perfectly valid.

 

 

Ignorance really is no excuse.

If you haven't noticed that CRT control exactly where moorings are allowed, you must be as dense as your posting style,  which is largely composed of childish attempted insults, suggests.

You really ought,  every now and then, to engage with an argument rather than just take the opportunity to be abusive.

Grow up.

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6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Ignorance really is no excuse.

If you haven't noticed that CRT control exactly where moorings are allowed, you must be as dense as your posting style,  which is largely composed of childish attempted insults, suggests.

You really ought,  every now and then, to engage with an argument rather than just take the opportunity to be abusive.

Grow up.

 

 

You have no coherent argument which is why you've resorted to personal abuse here, yourself, when presented with your dross being picked apart and demonstrated as wrong.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Paul C said:


CRT don’t use “market value “ - they might say they do, but they don’t. And you’re right, sometimes in some areas it is not possible to determine what it is, or indeed if there is one anyway. A bit like unique items such as one off works of art, etc.

As I understand it, the reason why 'market value' us cited in respect of CRT mooring rates 9Inc EOG) is because of their almost monopolistic situation they are required to not be undercutting other suppliers. I cannot see any reason why, i the absence of such alternatives, they cannot charge what they like, thus setting the market rate.

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15 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

As I understand it, the reason why 'market value' us cited in respect of CRT mooring rates 9Inc EOG) is because of their almost monopolistic situation they are required to not be undercutting other suppliers. I cannot see any reason why, i the absence of such alternatives, they cannot charge what they like, thus setting the market rate.

 

C&RT regualarly make an audit of all available moorings and their costs, and look at what their own moorings have achieved at auction to the rate for their moorings.

The last report I have is 2015 so somewhat out of date but the principles are clear :

 

Extracts :

 

Introduction

This report provides the rationale for mooring price decisions for 2015. VAT is payable at the rate set by the government for the date when the permit is purchased. Profiles of privately operated sites in the area are appended. We researched and compared their prices with the Canal & River Trust rates to inform our judgements, but because this data is commercially sensitive it has not been included.

 

Challenges to Pricing Decisions

We have made the pricing recommendations below based on a thorough review of auction results and local knowledge. It is our policy, set at Board level, to set prices which reflect market rates and to compete fairly with private operators. The Trust has neither powers nor duty to provide subsidised moorings. If you feel that the price decision made for your mooring site is unjustified having read this report, we ask that you write to the Head of Direct Managed Moorings explaining why you think it is the case. Please explain the reasoning for your challenge including evidence such as price and descriptions of nearby privately operated mooring sites. We will not amend the price without this evidence. We will consider your representation and respond in writing within two working weeks. If you are not satisfied with the response, you may request that the matter is dealt with through our formal complaints procedure.

 

And a screen shot of one of the pages in their report :

 

 

 

Screenshot (2024).png

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5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Wasn't the whole purpose of the mooring auctions a few years back to try to establish market rates for different areas and levels of facilities?

 

I think it was initially, but nowadays they start all auctions at what they already consider market price. Good example here. Listed multiple times but no takers:

https://www.watersidemooring.com/439-devizes-flight-l1-leisure/Vacancies

 

I think with real auctions starting at a low price they ran into problems with market illiquidity. They'd list a mooring at a low start price and at the last minute another moorer on the site would put in a lower bid than they were currently paying. If they won it at the low bid, then they's resign their current mooring agreement and sign up again at the lower price, then their old mooring would need auctioning.

 

Consequently, genuinely auctioning works against CRT when there are very few bidders (or only one bidder) for a mooring. 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, MtB said:

I think with real auctions starting at a low price they ran into problems with market illiquidity. 

Not to mention an auction process  rules and software which were ridiculously easy to game.

 

N

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17 minutes ago, MtB said:

Consequently, genuinely auctioning works against CRT when there are very few bidders (or only one bidder) for a mooring. 

In other words, the market worked but not to their advantage? 

Moorings represent a real problem in terms of valuation - because both supply and demand are restricted - CRT can, up to a point, squeeze the pips but there comes a point where it is cheaper to be illegal and not bother. 

 

30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The Trust has neither powers nor duty to provide subsidised moorings. 

 

 

But what constitutes subsidy - one definition would be "below cost" - certainly I sometimes provide services "at cost" and I don't regard myself as subsidising the customer (usually a not-for-profit organisation)

 

What is the marginal cost the most basic on-line mooring? I'm not suggesting that CRT should only charge that (although it would take the wind out of the sails of some of those who refuse to take a mooring) but to suggest that they can't charge low rates "because we can't subsidise moorings" is disingenous. 

 

Going back to the B&T, CRT set the market rate as they are the only provider, and it wouldn't have been that difficult (at lot less difficult than some on here would like to think) for them to provide some towpath moorings at a rate that more than covered their costs.

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I gave up my 68ft mooring a year or so ago as I was struggling with the idea of paying £3,800 a year for a totally unserviced online mooring, 1/4 mile from any road.

 

CRT auctioned it and it made over £5k.

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, MtB said:

I gave up my 68ft mooring a year or so ago as I was struggling with the idea of paying £3,800 a year for a totally unserviced online mooring, 1/4 mile from any road.

 

CRT auctioned it and it made over £5k.

 

 

 

How did you find out the final price? 

 

Its not public so presumably you were online watching it as the "hammer went down". 

 

As for gaming yes as people who do not complete only have to pay £500 to get mooring offered to next bid down..

 

£5k start price a lot of interest expected. 

 

Mr A bids £5000

 

Mr B bids £12000 (cuts out other bidders as is far too much)

 

Mr C bids £12500.

 

End price £12500 then Mr B and Mr C decide against it and it goes to Mr A for £5k. 

 

Mr A goes to pub and pays £550 each to Mr B and Mr C for saving him so much money. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

How did you find out the final price? 

 

 

My (ex)neighbour on the same site told me, having been told himself by the new moorer.

 

So it could all have been made up but I'm inclined to believe him.

 

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The IWA Website has the following statement

Bridgwater Docks

The last commercial traffic along the canal was in 1907 but Bridgwater Docks remained in use until 1971. The channel was maintained to supply the docks and from 1962 drinking water to Durleigh reservoir. Restoration began in the mid 1970s and the canal reopened fully in 1994. Bridgwater Docks are owned by Sedgemoor District Council (due to be incorporated into Somerset Council from April 2023) and the docks were leased to Canal & River Trust.  That lease terminated in June 2021 and the docks have been closed, and empty of boats, since then and likely to stay that way, possibly into 2024 or longer.  On termination of the lease Sedgemoor District Council insisted that Vacant Possession meant that there should be no boats in the docks – so all the boats previously moored there were moved onto the Bridgwater & Taunton Canal prior to the lease being terminated.  It is therefore not possible to enter the docks with a boat at the moment.

....

 

It is part of the Silver Propellor Challenge that boat can approach the Docks as near as possible but not enter

 

How do boats on the Bridgwater & Taunton Canal access other waterways as the docks are closed for the present?

 

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