Isn't time to ban sea-toilets on inland waterways all together??

[Momac]

5 minutes ago, Loddon said:

You may be correct upstream of Cavendish Bridge but downstream of there its cart waters and I'm pretty sure its forbidden there.   

I am thinking downstream of  Trent Bridge . What about there ?

 

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Environment agency byelaws applicable above Teddington

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/river-thames-navigation-licensing-and-general-byelaws-1993

 

Use of vessels with sanitary appliances 
66 (a) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (c) below no owner or master of any vessel shall keep or use or knowingly permit to be kept or used on the river any vessel provided with a sanitary appliance of such design that polluting 
matter normally passes or can pass into the river. 
(b) Where any vessel is fitted with a sanitary appliance, such appliance shall be so designed, constructed and at all times maintained as necessary to prevent any such passage as aforesaid. 
(c) The master of every vessel present on the river, at the date of coming into force of these Byelaws, and of every vessel on the river on or after such date, 
if such vessel is fitted with sanitary arrangements or appliances so designed or 
constructed as to permit the passage into the river of polluting matter, shall without undue delay give notice to the Lockkeeper at the lock nearest to the vessel’s point of entry to the river or to any Officer of the Authority specifying 
the nature of such arrangements aforesaid. The master shall also, upon being requested by such lockkeeper or other Officer of the Authority so to do, afford such Officer of the Authority facilities for the taking by him of such steps by way of sealing or otherwise as may be reasonably necessary for preventing the passage into the water of polluting matter from the vessel so long as the vessel 
remains on the river. So long as the vessel remains on the river, no 
interference or alteration shall be made with the sealing or other steps so taken as aforesaid except with the approval of the Authority. 
(d) No person shall discharge polluting matter into the river from any vessel or from any sanitary appliance used thereon.

I think there is an exemption for visiting boats with single discharge sea toilets. Would need checking. PLA banned houseboats and commercials from discharging holding tanks relatively recently. 

That is what i wrote hours ago but @Alan de Enfield poo pooed it

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Tonka said:

That is what i wrote hours ago but @Alan de Enfield poo pooed it

 

 

Try PLA Byelaw 49

Which is still current 

 

However, only boats registerered under section 124  ("To Licence a Vessel To Work On The Thames") and liveaboard boats are banned from discharging sewage

 

49 (2012). DISCHARGE OF SEWAGE INTO THE THAMES

49.1 The owner of:

1. a vessel licensed under section 124 of the Act or
2. a houseboat

must, from 1 January 2015, ensure that no sewage is discharged into the Thames.

 

49.2 In this byelaw “houseboat” means any vessel (other than a ship registered under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 or any vessel usually used for navigation) which is used primarily as a place of habitation, or as a place for accommodating or receiving persons for the purposes of shelter, recreation, entertainment or refreshment, or as club premises or offices, while it is moored.

[Tonka]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Try PLA Byelaw 49

Which is still current 

 

However, only boats registerered under section 124  ("To Licence a Vessel To Work On The Thames") and liveaboard boats are banned from discharging sewage

 

49 (2012). DISCHARGE OF SEWAGE INTO THE THAMES

49.1 The owner of:

1. a vessel licensed under section 124 of the Act or
2. a houseboat

must, from 1 January 2015, ensure that no sewage is discharged into the Thames.

 

49.2 In this byelaw “houseboat” means any vessel (other than a ship registered under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 or any vessel usually used for navigation) which is used primarily as a place of habitation, or as a place for accommodating or receiving persons for the purposes of shelter, recreation, entertainment or refreshment, or as club premises or offices, while it is moored.

but i wrote about sea boats going through Teddington Lock onto the non tidal bit and then going back. Which is not PLA. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Tonka said:

but i wrote about sea boats going through Teddington Lock onto the non tidal bit and then going back. Which is not PLA. 

 

I simply said leisure boats could discharge sewage on "the Thames", which is correct.

[Tonka]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I simply said leisure boats could discharge sewage on "the Thames", which is correct.

no it is not

Just now, Tonka said:

no it is not

and if you are going to be pedantic then when you are on PLA water the discharge is "into the Thames" not as you said "on the Thames"

[Momac]

7 hours ago, The swede said:

When is BSS going to ban all through-hull fittings connected to a toilet?

I think the answer is not anytime soon

But in any case you are not supposed to dump your sewage in the canals.

 

 

[blackrose]

7 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

 

As I understand it you can do this on the Nene and Gt Ouse. 

 

Ok non tidal reaches too?

 

[magnetman]

I believe so yes. @Loddon has local knowledge so would probably be able to confirm.

 

This gentleman has investigated the details and apparently Yes is the answer although the thing about the fisheries is interesting.

 

https://www.canalboat.co.uk/canal-boat/steve-haywood-the-dirty-truth-about-sea-toilets-and-rivers-6270282/

 

"Finally, I got confirmation that boats could empty their sea toilets on not just the Great Ouse, and the Medway, but on the tributaries of the Great Ouse and the river Nene as well. The answer to my suggestion of emptying my cassette over the side was circumspect. ‘The regulations don’t specify what sort of toilet is permissible, However, if a boater is discharging materials/chemicals that could potentially cause pollution and kill fish it would be an offence against the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975, Section 4(1).’"

 

As he points out it is okay if the materials released cause harm to humans but if they cause harm to fish then its a no-no.

 

Funny priorities.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by magnetman
correction

[Tam & Di]

12 hours ago, The swede said:

I believe Thames is the (only?) river that stipulates it being an offence to pump out, and it is therefore also one of the cleanest rivers in Europe. Impossible to police in practice, but if it was not permitted to have one ( a toilet connected to a seacock) installed on boats that are not sea going (i.e. all narrowboats), the problem would be close to eradicated (except for people just emptying their elsan cassette overboard.... ) Removing through-hull fittings under the waterline is also a safety issue as it is the main reason for leaks.

 

Firstly it is not a BSS issue, as has been already said, and if a regulation were to be introduced to outlaw any connection between a toilet and a seacock I'm sure there would be far more people emptying their cassettes overboard. A boat on the move which discharges such matter little by little is the least of the problems; far worse is discharge of matter which has been sterilised by use of elsanol or similar, or discharge en masse of multi gallons - particularly by static craft..

 

Tam

Edited March 22, 2023 by Tam & Di
multiple entries

[GUMPY]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I simply said leisure boats could discharge sewage on "the Thames", which is correct.

You missed a word out between the and Thames.

 

The Tidal Thames.

 

You have done this before implying that it's all of  the Thames when it's not.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Loddon

[magnetman]

Also the OP specifically referred to using the BS scheme to ban through-hull lavatory fittings so it was always going to be a discussion about non tidal waterways.

 

@MartynG did point out that some of the tidal Trent is CRT managed. Are there any other tidal bits where one would need a BS ticket? 

 

I suppose there must be some here and there. 

 

 

[GUMPY]

5 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Ok non tidal reaches too?

 

Yes 

It's actually a grey area as there are rules stating no pollution but there are also rules that say you can discharge black water.

It's all irrelevant considering what Anglian Water dump into the rivers.

[magnetman]

I've always found it odd that it is allowed in the small East Anglia rivers but not the Thames. Maybe yars ago there was a different class of riparian owner on the River who had more influence around the effluent. 

 

 

Of course the laws around it would have been put in decades before the EA were formed. Presumably there was something like a Nene conservancy at some stage like the Thames conservancy. 

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I've always found it odd that it is allowed in the small East Anglia rivers but not the Thames. Maybe yars ago there was a different class of riparian owner on the River who had more influence around the effluent. 

 

 

Of course the laws around it would have been put in decades before the EA were formed. Presumably there was something like a Nene conservancy at some stage like the Thames conservancy. 

 

Back in the day the non-tidal Thames was under the control of the Thames Conservancy. As far as I can tell, they were far more public-spirited than Thames Water and then the EA who fociably took over from them. The TC seemed to have far more thought and concern for the good of the river and its users. For as long as I can remember, they had and enforced the Thames Launch Regulations, upon which the BSS seemed to be based. They banned sea toilets and as said such toilets were sealed upon entering the non-tidal Thames. The care of the river has fallen considerably under the care of Thames Water and then the EA.

 

I get the impression that the TC were a comparably rich organisation and were ahead of their time environment wise.

[Tacet]

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Back in the day the non-tidal Thames was under the control of the Thames Conservancy. As far as I can tell, they were far more public-spirited than Thames Water and then the EA who fociably took over from them. The TC seemed to have far more thought and concern for the good of the river and its users. For as long as I can remember, they had and enforced the Thames Launch Regulations, upon which the BSS seemed to be based. They banned sea toilets and as said such toilets were sealed upon entering the non-tidal Thames. The care of the river has fallen considerably under the care of Thames Water and then the EA.

 

I get the impression that the TC were a comparably rich organisation and were ahead of their time environment wise.

Back in the day, the Thames Conservancy prohibited the discharge of grey water too.  It may not have been enforced with the same enthusiasm as toilet discharge, but pulling the plug out of the sink whilst in a lock could result in replumbing to empty into a bucket.  Which you then chucked over the side when no one was looking.

We hired a pair of otherwise identical Freeman 22 where one had been modified as a consequence of tactlessness.

[Tonka]

3 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Back in the day, the Thames Conservancy prohibited the discharge of grey water too.  It may not have been enforced with the same enthusiasm as toilet discharge, but pulling the plug out of the sink whilst in a lock could result in replumbing to empty into a bucket.  Which you then chucked over the side when no one was looking.

We hired a pair of otherwise identical Freeman 22 where one had been modified as a consequence of tactlessness.

I remember at Romney Lock once a boat came in and didn't turn his engine off. The lockie asked him to turn it off. I can't replies the man because if I do it will not restart.  So the lockie says pull it back out of the lock and when it is fixed you can come back in

[magnetman]

45 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Back in the day the non-tidal Thames was under the control of the Thames Conservancy. As far as I can tell, they were far more public-spirited than Thames Water and then the EA who fociably took over from them. The TC seemed to have far more thought and concern for the good of the river and its users. For as long as I can remember, they had and enforced the Thames Launch Regulations, upon which the BSS seemed to be based. They banned sea toilets and as said such toilets were sealed upon entering the non-tidal Thames. The care of the river has fallen considerably under the care of Thames Water and then the EA.

 

I get the impression that the TC were a comparably rich organisation and were ahead of their time environment wise.

 

 

I believe some of the TC bigwigs were also riparian owners which would give them a personal interest in the state of the River as it was down the end of the garden.

 

 

On a slightly pedantic note the EA did not actually take over control of the River from Thames Water. For a short time the River was managed by the National Rivers Authority before the EA got it.

 

I think privatisation of water utilities has a lot to answer for in all this. Priority is shareholder dividends and not the status of the water.  The fines are too small.

 

 

 

 

[enigmatic]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

I believe so yes. @Loddon has local knowledge so would probably be able to confirm.

 

This gentleman has investigated the details and apparently Yes is the answer although the thing about the fisheries is interesting.

 

https://www.canalboat.co.uk/canal-boat/steve-haywood-the-dirty-truth-about-sea-toilets-and-rivers-6270282/

 

"Finally, I got confirmation that boats could empty their sea toilets on not just the Great Ouse, and the Medway, but on the tributaries of the Great Ouse and the river Nene as well. The answer to my suggestion of emptying my cassette over the side was circumspect. ‘The regulations don’t specify what sort of toilet is permissible, However, if a boater is discharging materials/chemicals that could potentially cause pollution and kill fish it would be an offence against the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975, Section 4(1).’"

 

As he points out it is okay if the materials released cause harm to humans but if they cause harm to fish then its a no-no.

 

Funny priorities.

 

I believe there are a couple of exceptions on the Great Ouse lodes due to local (parish level) bylaws but the rest of it technically permits sea toilets including sections like the Old West River which have the width and depth of a narrow canal and little flow (I assume none of the moorers there have sea toilets, otherwise the moorings would get really unpleasant)

 

Odd that of all the rivers its these ones permitted really: they're far smaller and more frequently swum in than most and I doubt seagoing boats without black water tanks visit them often

 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

I've always found it odd that it is allowed in the small East Anglia rivers but not the Thames. Maybe yars ago there was a different class of riparian owner on the River who had more influence around the effluent. 

 

 

Of course the laws around it would have been put in decades before the EA were formed. Presumably there was something like a Nene conservancy at some stage like the Thames conservancy. 

It's just historical accident. The non tidal Thames was run by the Thames Conservancy, other rivers had different management organisations, and they all had their own rules. They were all brought under the National Rivers Authority and then the Environment Agency, but some of the differences still remain. That's why the boat licencing rules are different for the Anglian waterways compared with the Thames for example.

[magnetman]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

It's just historical accident. The non tidal Thames was run by the Thames Conservancy, other rivers had different management organisations, and they all had their own rules. They were all brought under the National Rivers Authority and then the Environment Agency, but some of the differences still remain. That's why the boat licencing rules are different for the Anglian waterways compared with the Thames for example.

 

I bet there was more money and influence on the banks of the Thames than most other rivers given its geographical location.

 

The Thames valley is well known for the money thing. Yars ago there were stately homes and large estates all along the River. Some of them no longer exist but when they did you can be sure their owners had influence and interests. This was of course before privatisation of public utilities.

 

Not sure if the Nene valley was so popular with the landed gentry.

 

 

[Dav and Pen]

Shared a lock on the Thames with a salters steamer full of the Thames conservators all in blazers and yachting hats. Very interested in our dirty old coal boat but also encouraging in our business and in fact a bit later we got the contract to supply the lock houses. They had the best interest of the river as their only concern and between them had real knowledge. 
All the work on the Nene after the 47 floods was carried out by the Nene Drainage Board one of whose member was the chief engineer of the Northampton Brewery Company who later was mayor of Northampton. 
All these bodies had an interest in the area they worked and lived in unlike the present day set up run by collage kids in a remote office .

With regard to through toilets on the continent I’m afraid these are most common apart from Holland as there is almost no infrastructure for elsans or pump outs.

[Bee]

Can't imagine there are many sea toilets on inland waterway boats these days except for older boats with a history of sea or estuary use. As has been mentioned France has few emptying facilities but quite a lot of overnight stopping places are shared by camper vans and quite frequently there are emptying places for cassette loos. 

[GUMPY]

11 minutes ago, Bee said:

Can't imagine there are many sea toilets on inland waterway boats these days except for older boats with a history of sea or estuary use

Lots of Fibreglass jobbies on Anglian Waterways have them.  Its more common than you think.

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, Bee said:

Can't imagine there are many sea toilets on inland waterway boats these days except for older boats with a history of sea or estuary use. 

 

Possibly not, but there are still plenty of boats on the inland waterways deliberately emptying their toilets into both canals and rivers.

 

I remember when I was moored in the Brentford basin, one boat with a couple of crusties living onboard never moved their boat to the nearby pumpout and were never seen wheeling a cassette to the elsan point 200 yards away either.

 

"Bucket & chuck it" the woman once said to me.... This was the same rather aggressive woman who after I enquired whether they needed anything from the shops gave me a bollocking for shopping at Tescos in Osterley, like it was some sort of corporate environmental crime!

Edited March 22, 2023 by blackrose