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Isn't time to ban sea-toilets on inland waterways all together??


The swede

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When is BSS going to ban all through-hull fittings connected to a toilet?

Deck fittings for pump-out should be the only connection allowed - full (cock)stop.
It is ridiculous that in 2023 you are allowed to pump out the s**t in rivers and canals we all are using. 

The time difference to the continent on this subject is 1 hour and 40 years. (like a lot of things)

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Just now, The swede said:

When is BSS going to ban all through-hull fittings connected to a toilet?

Deck fittings for pump-out should be the only connection allowed - full (cock)stop.
It is ridiculous that in 2023 you are allowed to pump out the s**t in rivers and canals we all are using. 

The time difference to the continent on this subject is 1 hour and 40 years. (like a lot of things)

 

A nice sentiment and undoubtly correct.

 

However I would like to see more curtailment of domestic sewerage and farm offrun as a priority. I suspect this is much bigger problem.

 

Country File last Sunday evening featuring the River Wye as an example was a shocker.

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3 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

A nice sentiment and undoubtly correct.

 

However I would like to see more curtailment of domestic sewerage and farm offrun as a priority. I suspect this is much bigger problem.

 

Country File last Sunday evening featuring the River Wye as an example was a shocker.

Paul Whitehouse's recent programs on the rivers even more so... 😞

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10 minutes ago, The swede said:

 

The time difference to the continent on this subject is 1 hour and 40 years. (like a lot of things)

Yes, still commonplace in Europe, I think.

Aren't they already banned on our canals?

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8 minutes ago, The swede said:

When is BSS going to ban all through-hull fittings connected to a toilet?

Deck fittings for pump-out should be the only connection allowed - full (cock)stop.
It is ridiculous that in 2023 you are allowed to pump out the s**t in rivers and canals we all are using. 

The time difference to the continent on this subject is 1 hour and 40 years. (like a lot of things)

It is a Boat Safety Scheme, not an environmental campaign.  It applies to sea going as well as inland boats. There is more than enough application creep and unnecessary regulation without encouraging the management.

 

The place to ban the use of 'sea toilets' discharging overboard on inland waterways is in the several  Navigation Authority Bye-laws. I would support this.

 

N

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15 minutes ago, The swede said:

The time difference to the continent on this subject is 1 hour and 40 years. (like a lot of things)

 

 

You are correct we are much further advanced than 'johnny foreigner' - on the continent (particularly France they simply dump staight into the canals and rivers as their infrastructure for pump outs or elsans in minimal (at best) the RYA actually point this out to UK boaters.

 

Whilst it is against the law in France to do this - like most of the French laws it is totally disregarded by the French population.

 

The Med countries are much better with Turkey going to the extreme of monitoring how many people are on the boat and how often they go ashore to pump-out (both Black & Grey water) and there are severe fines.

 

Turkey

Discharge of any kind may be considered illegal. A black water tank has therefore been a practical necessity in Turkey for many years. New rules have been coming into force in some areas of Turkey (such as the Mugla District) over the last few years which require vessels to carry a Blue Card. If the rules are enforced to the full all black and grey water will need to be collected and pumped out ashore; the Blue Card will be used to monitor the amount of waste water deposited ashore to ensure holding tanks are pumped out rather than emptied into the sea.

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14 minutes ago, Athy said:

Yes, still commonplace in Europe, I think.

Aren't they already banned on our canals?

Probably are. The lock keeper at Teddington used to have to go aboard and seal the sea cock on boats with sea toilets as they came onto the Thames. He then had to take the seal off again as they left the Thames, and woe betied anyone who had removed their own seal. But I bet all those live aboard now on the Thames gave removed their own seal.

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6 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Probably are. The lock keeper at Teddington used to have to go aboard and seal the sea cock on boats with sea toilets as they came onto the Thames. He then had to take the seal off again as they left the Thames, and woe betied anyone who had removed their own seal. But I bet all those live aboard now on the Thames gave removed their own seal.

 

But the Thames Byelaws allow for the discharge of toilets directly into the river.

 

The byelaws are being amended, and the amended bylaws stating - "No commercial boats can discharge black water" comes into effect July 2024

 

However vessels that only occasionally navigate the Thames can still discharge directly

 

Quote :

 

In 2021, these regulations were extended to the General Directions to cover all commercial vessels in the Thames, as currently the passenger boat industry and commercial sailing yachts are not required to contain their Blackwater. These revised General Directions went through consultation in 2021. International Vessels calling into the port must comply with MARPOL standards and are regulated by the MCA.

 

 

10 DISCHARGE OF SEWAGE INTO THE THAMES

10.1       From 1 July 2024, all commercial Vessels must ensure that they discharge no sewage into the Thames.

10.2       Vessels certificated in accordance with the Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998 which only Occasionally navigate within the Thames are exempt from General Direction 10.1.

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56 minutes ago, The swede said:

When is BSS going to ban all through-hull fittings connected to a toilet?

Deck fittings for pump-out should be the only connection allowed - full (cock)stop.
It is ridiculous that in 2023 you are allowed to pump out the s**t in rivers and canals we all are using. 

The time difference to the continent on this subject is 1 hour and 40 years. (like a lot of things)

Seems you may misunderstand.

All canals and most rivers do not allow black water to be discharged from boats.

Sewage farms are a different matter 

 

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The only river I am aware of which allows through hull or overboard discharge of lavatory waste is the Nene* and the Great Ouse*. Curiously they are both EA managed rivers and the Thames, which is bigger than both of them, does not allow boats to unload. 

 

No problem for Thames Water shareholders to get bigger dividends by dumping millions of gallons of untreated sewage directly into the River rather than upgrade their infrastructure. 

 

Overboard discharge into the cut is a  naff thing to do. 

 

* ETA happy to be corrected on this. Obviously there is a difference between single shot sea toilets and dropping the contents of a holding tank which took a week to fill. 

Edited by magnetman
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47 minutes ago, magnetman said:

* ETA happy to be corrected on this

 

As above the Thames allows leisure boats to discharge, and the Trent allows boat discharges

 

Have a read thru this thread - I (and others) have been around and around this subject many times previously. All the relevant legislation is quoted.

 

 

 

Meaning of “water discharge activity”

 

3.—(1) A “water discharge activity” means any of the following—

 

(a)the discharge or entry to inland freshwaters, coastal waters or relevant territorial waters of any—

 

(i)poisonous, noxious or polluting matter,

 

(ii)waste matter, or

 

(iii)trade effluent or sewage effluent;

 

(b)the discharge from land through a pipe into the sea outside the seaward limits of relevant territorial waters of any trade effluent or sewage effluent;

 

(c)the removal from any part of the bottom, channel or bed of any inland freshwaters of a deposit accumulated by reason of any dam, weir or sluice holding back the waters, by causing it to be carried away in suspension in the waters, unless the activity is carried on in the exercise of a power conferred by or under any enactment relating to land drainage, flood prevention or navigation;

 

(d)the cutting or uprooting of a substantial amount of vegetation in any inland freshwaters or so near to any such waters that it falls into them, where it is not reasonable to take steps to remove the vegetation from these waters;

 

(e)an activity in respect of which a notice under paragraph 4 or 5 has been served and has taken effect.

 

(2) A discharge or an activity that might lead to a discharge is not a “water discharge activity”—

 

(a)if the discharge is made, or authorised to be made, by or under any prescribed statutory provision, or

 

(b)if the discharge is of trade effluent or sewage effluent from a vessel.

 

(3) In determining whether a discharge or an activity is a water discharge activity, no account must be taken of any radioactivity possessed by any substance or article or by any part of any premises.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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That is certainly the first time I have heard it suggested that leisure boats can discharge sewage into the Thames ! 

 

I think this is wrong. 

ETA I see you are probably referring to tidal Thames. 

 

I assumed as the OP mentioned canals the intention was to discuss the situation regarding non tidal inland waterways. 

 

My error to assume but I think it probably was a safe assumption.

3 hours ago, The swede said:

When is BSS going to ban all through-hull fittings connected to a toilet?

 

 

This will be a clue.  A BSS ticket is not needed on tidal waterways. 

 

In case anyone thinks you can pump your shit in the Thames from your boat above Teddington no you can't. 

 

As I understand it you can do this on the Nene and Gt Ouse. 

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Environment agency byelaws applicable above Teddington

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/river-thames-navigation-licensing-and-general-byelaws-1993

 

Use of vessels with sanitary appliances 
66 (a) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (c) below no owner or master of any vessel shall keep or use or knowingly permit to be kept or used on the river any vessel provided with a sanitary appliance of such design that polluting 
matter normally passes or can pass into the river. 
(b) Where any vessel is fitted with a sanitary appliance, such appliance shall be so designed, constructed and at all times maintained as necessary to prevent any such passage as aforesaid. 
(c) The master of every vessel present on the river, at the date of coming into force of these Byelaws, and of every vessel on the river on or after such date, 
if such vessel is fitted with sanitary arrangements or appliances so designed or 
constructed as to permit the passage into the river of polluting matter, shall without undue delay give notice to the Lockkeeper at the lock nearest to the vessel’s point of entry to the river or to any Officer of the Authority specifying 
the nature of such arrangements aforesaid. The master shall also, upon being requested by such lockkeeper or other Officer of the Authority so to do, afford such Officer of the Authority facilities for the taking by him of such steps by way of sealing or otherwise as may be reasonably necessary for preventing the passage into the water of polluting matter from the vessel so long as the vessel 
remains on the river. So long as the vessel remains on the river, no 
interference or alteration shall be made with the sealing or other steps so taken as aforesaid except with the approval of the Authority. 
(d) No person shall discharge polluting matter into the river from any vessel or from any sanitary appliance used thereon.

11 minutes ago, MartynG said:

http://www.pla.co.uk/Environment/Prohibition-of-discharge-of-sewage-to-the-Thames

I believe the above bylaw prohibits discharge of sewage from vessels  on the Thames 

 

.

 

 

I think there is an exemption for visiting boats with single discharge sea toilets. Would need checking. PLA banned houseboats and commercials from discharging holding tanks relatively recently. 

Edited by magnetman
I don't know why the text layout is jumbled
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I believe Thames is the (only?) river that stipulates it being an offence to pump out, and it is therefore also one of the cleanest rivers in Europe. Impossible to police in practice, but if it was not permitted to have one ( a toilet connected to a seacock) installed on boats that are not sea going (i.e. all narrowboats), the problem would be close to eradicated (except for people just emptying their elsan cassette overboard.... ) Removing through-hull fittings under the waterline is also a safety issue as it is the main reason for leaks.

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16 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

This will be a clue.  A BSS ticket is not needed on tidal waterways. 

The  tidal Trent between Cromwell and Gainsborough falls within C&RT control.

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Nothing boaters could do would ever get remotely close to how much shit Thames Water puts in the River. OK so theirs tends to be after rain but as it is a big river a quite burst of heavy rain won't always cause it to move that fast that it acts as a proper drain. Obviously it is a drain but the volumes that the water company does put in are quite mindbending. 

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1 minute ago, The swede said:

I believe Thames is the (only?) river that stipulates it being an offence to pump out, and it is therefore also one of the cleanest rivers in Europe. 

I thought the Thames was well known for  its pollution with raw sewage ?

Example...

image.png.87bf5d1c2aade6f889431a892334c5b8.png

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I believe Thames is the (only?) river that stipulates it being an offence to pump out, and it is therefore also one of the cleanest rivers in Europe. Impossible to police in practice, but if it was not permitted to have one ( a toilet connected to a seacock) installed on boats that are not sea going (i.e. all narrowboats), the problem would be close to eradicated (except for people just emptying their elsan cassette overboard.... ) Removing through-hull fittings under the waterline is also a safety issue as it is the main reason for leaks. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-thames-clean-river-citiy-b2064862.html

 

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The BS scheme is all about the safety of other people. It is an interesting question to ask whether this extends to those people unfortunate enough to find themselves in the water. 

 

I don't think lavatory arrangements can reasonably come under the BS scheme but it is an intriguing point. 

Edited by magnetman
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Apart from the Thames I think you will find that sewage discharge from boats is akso forbidden on:

 

River Avon (Warwickshire)

River Avon (Kennet and Avon)

River Kennet 

River Medway

River Seven

River Trent

River Wey

 

In fact just about every navigable river apart from Rivers Nene and Gt Ouse

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Apart from the Thames I think you will find that sewage discharge from boats is akso forbidden on:

 

River Avon (Warwickshire)

River Avon (Kennet and Avon)

River Kennet 

River Medway

River Seven

River Trent

River Wey

 

In fact just about every navigable river apart from Rivers Nene and Gt Ouse

 

 

 

There is no bylaw prohibiting discharge of sewage from a vessel on the River Trent.

 

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8 minutes ago, MartynG said:

There is no bylaw prohibiting discharge of sewage from a vessel on the River Trent.

 

You may be correct upstream of Cavendish Bridge but downstream of there its cart waters and I'm pretty sure its forbidden there.   

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