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Pre-Purchase Surveys


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36 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Most house purchasers have a valuation done for the mortgage lender, not a survey. The valuer doesn't even need to get out of his car, and during the pandemic many were done entirely as a desktop exercise using online data.

 

In the world of property trading this has been happening for decades. It is known as a "Drive-by survey", lol! 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The question of survey on an older boat is thorny. 

Who gets the survey done? If its the seller, do you trust its accuracy?

If its the buyer, how do they arrange moving a boat they don't own to a dock to be lifted, banged with a hammer and have bits ground off? Who is responsible for the boat whilst this is done? Then there is the question of on who's insurance does all this stand?

And  does the seller accept the marking and possible damage to his boat if the buyer chooses not to purchase?

What if the surveyor bangs a hole in the hull? Who restores it to watertight? The seller who has no right to the survey because the buyer is paying for it or the buyer because they and their surveyor caused the damage?

I have known outwardly sound boats, that do not take on water, to sink following docking and surveying.

 

Little wonder that sellers are reluctant to offer buyers a chance to survey when there are customers waiting with money in hand to buy a boat as it stands, just like buying a used car.

 

And in the final analysis the survey is worth nothing anyway!

 

For every poster who (correctly) points all this out there's another one who avoided a boat disaster thanks to a survey that found severe problems...

 

Just like everything else in life, boat surveys are neither totally useless or 100% perfect, it's up to the purchaser to decide whether *they* think it's worth it or not -- and either way you could well be wrong, that's life, nothing is guaranteed (except death and taxes)... 😞

Edited by IanD
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20 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The question of survey on an older boat is thorny. 

Who gets the survey done? If its the seller, do you trust its accuracy?

If its the buyer, how do they arrange moving a boat they don't own to a dock to be lifted, banged with a hammer and have bits ground off? Who is responsible for the boat whilst this is done? Then there is the question of on who's insurance does all this stand?

And  does the seller accept the marking and possible damage to his boat if the buyer chooses not to purchase?

What if the surveyor bangs a hole in the hull? Who restores it to watertight? The seller who has no right to the survey because the buyer is paying for it or the buyer because they and their surveyor caused the damage?

I have known outwardly sound boats, that do not take on water, to sink following docking and surveying.

 

Little wonder that sellers are reluctant to offer buyers a chance to survey when there are customers waiting with money in hand to buy a boat as it stands, just like buying a used car.

 

And in the final analysis the survey is worth nothing anyway!

 

Are such issues not covered when using a broker and under a BMF standard sales contract?

 

As for older boats a reputable seller may very well choose to have a survey done before they put the boat on the market. In such cases it is possible to purchase the survey from the surveyor, in which case it effectively becomes the buyers survey with all the adavantages and disadvantages that brings as dicussed above.

 

Personally I have found it useful to have a puchase survey report both for understanding the boat's systems and when maintaining the boat; and my boat is as old and as over-plated as any welded steel boat built for leisure that's still in use.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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2 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Are such issues not covered when using a broker and under a BMF standard sales contract?

 

As for older boats a reputable seller may very well choose to have a survey done before they put the boat on the market. In such cases it is possible to purchase the survey from the surveyor, in which case it effectively becomes the buyers survey with all the adavantages and disadvantages that brings as dicussed above.

 

Personally I have found it useful to have a puchase survey report both for understanding the boat's systems and when maintaining the boat; and my boat is as old and as over-plated as any welded steel boat built for leisure that's still in use.

A big difference between a purchase survey of the whole boat and a steel hull only survey though.

 

Would you trust a brokers survey if you were buying a boat?

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In my limited boating years I have only purchased two boats. Owned the present boat nye on eighteen years. I had full surveys on both. I Definitely agree there’s seems to be little comeback on the surveyor if anything goes wrong more than ten seconds after you have taken possession of the keys. However, it does give you an indication that there may be something you don’t want to take on.

 

If……..I were to buy another boat I would certainly NOT have a full survey. Just a hull survey. If the seller has a survey less than two years old I would look at it and form an opinion for myself.

 

Its always buyer beware. 

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14 hours ago, IanD said:

For every poster who (correctly) points all this out there's another one who avoided a boat disaster thanks to a survey that found severe problems...

 

 

Very true. 

 

There are two things about surveys that strike me, beyond the usual "you can't sue the surveyor if he misses something crucial". 

 

1) Newbies often write about surveys as though they expect a survey to iron out all doubt, and if the boat "passes" the survey, the boat is good as new. This is simply not true. Surveys are a report of what the surveyor saw, and not what he missed. And great deal of what a survey says about the condition of this or that on a 20 year old boat is opinion.

 

2) It depends how close the boat is to the nearest dock. I sold a boat last year that was a good day of cruising time to the nearest slip. I turned down a full asking price offer subject to survey as I wasn't willing/able to spend two days cruising to the dock and back for a 'maybe' sale. Nor was I willing to lend him the boat to take it! Had the dock been one lock away it would have been different but it wasn't. Point being, the location of the nearest available slipway is a really important factor.

 

And the chap bought it anyway with no survey, and texted me six months later to say he'd finally managed to get it surveyed and the survey was GREAT! Point being, a seller refusing a survey isn't necessarily hiding something ghastly, he might just not want the hassle.

 

 

 

Edited by MtB
Refine the last para.
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7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

A big difference between a purchase survey of the whole boat and a steel hull only survey though.

 

Would you trust a brokers survey if you were buying a boat?

 

I was referring to a seller's hull survey done before appointing a broker for the purpose of understanding the condition of an old boat prior to sale. Surely only a dealer rather than a broker could arrange their own survey?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I was referring to a seller's hull survey done before appointing a broker for the purpose of understanding the condition of an old boat prior to sale. Surely only a dealer rather than a broker could arrange their own survey?

 

 

Mmmmm, not so with Wilton and Venetian. 

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1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Mmmmm, not so with Wilton and Venetian. 


Really? They commission surveys on boats they are only brokering rather than the ones they own?

 

The whole point here is that what is an apparent ‘brokerage’ may actually be a ‘dealership’. We know places like Rugby Boats broker boats, they don’t buy boats for sale. Whilton and Venetian do buy boats and any prospective purchaser should establish who the owner is at the outset.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You are making the assumption that the likes of the above will actually tell you the truth.

 

I don't assume that at all.

 

If you can't establish who the owner is then you can't fulfil my recommendation. Too subtle perhaps. The Bill of Sale will tell you who the legal owner is. Don't sign anything binding unless the owner's details are clearly stated. Don't buy a boat via a (supposed) third party that doesn't use industry standard forms of contract that make these things clear.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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There's a noobie vlogger on youtube who bought a boat off a friend, knowing it had been well looked after, for £35k, then found out it needed a complete new base plate, but also the previous overplating needed removing. Cost £12k.. She bought without a survey.. 

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

In the world of property trading this has been happening for decades. It is known as a "Drive-by survey", lol!

Suffered this when selling our last house, became apparent when it mentioned things like asbestos and an incorrect layout and roof. Ended up getting a profuse apology from the surveyors and a proper survey re-done free of charge. 

Buyer wasn't happy as the the big bargaining stick they thought they had suddenly went away, they paid asking price.

 

We always said we'd get a full survey for any boat we bought, in the end we bought without. It had had a hull survey two months prior when brought out for blacking by the seller, the surveyor was also happy to chat to us and answer any questions we might have.

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2 minutes ago, casper ghost said:

There's a noobie vlogger on youtube who bought a boat off a friend, knowing it had been well looked after, for £35k, then found out it needed a complete new base plate, but also the previous overplating needed removing. Cost £12k.. She bought without a survey.. 

 

 

According to whom, and based on what? 

 

Or did it actually sink? 

 

 

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I always worry about these bald, unsupported statements of FACT (e.g. "Discovered it needs a new baseplate") when these 'facts' are so often nothing of the sort, and just a matter of opinion. 

 

Often the opinion being from someone with some sort of financial interest in the owner having said work done. 

 

 

 

Edited by MtB
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56 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

 

The whole point here is that what is an apparent ‘brokerage’ may actually be a ‘dealership’. We know places like Rugby Boats and ABNB broker boats, they don’t buy boats for sale.

 

 

ABNB now buy boats off people, for the last 18 months at least.

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34 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

According to whom, and based on what? 

 

Or did it actually sink? 

 

 

If I remember the video the lady took the boat to a yard for blacking.

The defects became apparent when the hull was jet washed and it went on from there.

I’ve not been able to find a link but it was a YouTube clip.

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

I always worry about these bald, unsupported statements of FACT (e.g. "Discovered it needs a new baseplate") when these 'facts' are so often nothing of the sort, and just a matter of opinion. 

 

Often the opinion being from someone with some sort of financial interest in the owner having said work done. 

 

 

 

What we'll never know is whether a survey would have helped. I don't really hold much with them, but for the money these old boats are selling for i'd want to view it out of the water.

Edited by casper ghost
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4 minutes ago, casper ghost said:

What we'll never know is whether a survey would have helped. I don't really hold much with them, but for the money these old boats are selling for i'd want to view it out of the water.

 

I can certainly understand that desire and rationale, but if it means a competitor willing to buy without a survey, would you prefer to lose the boat?

 

Thing is, when I buy a boat it is because I've fallen in love with it and would buy it 'warts and all', regardless of any survey result. I'm willing to just buy a boat 'as seen' and later sort out any defects once I own it.

 

I'm a bit gung-ho like that but it makes it easy to buy a boat out from under the feet of another potential buyer who is dicking about trying to arrange a survey, docking etc, before deciding whether or not to follow through with their (conditional) offer. 

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52 minutes ago, AG2 said:

If I remember the video the lady took the boat to a yard for blacking.

The defects became apparent when the hull was jet washed and it went on from there.

I’ve not been able to find a link but it was a YouTube clip.

https://youtu.be/7nTOJByDNUk?t=868

 

from about 14m 30s if the link doesn't take you right to that point

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25 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

https://youtu.be/7nTOJByDNUk?t=868

 

from about 14m 30s if the link doesn't take you right to that point

 

Thanks for finding that! An interesting watch. 

 

Right at the start of the "Survey" chapter - at 9min 55sec - she says about the surveyor "I'm not sure if I trust this guy" then goes on to explain why she thinks he has confused two different boats in writing the survey report!!

 

A perfect example of why I was saying how important it is to determine WHY someone has stated (say) a new baseplate is needed and not just accept it as gospel.

 

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Surely if you are having and paying for an out of water hull survey you would be present to watch the surveyor and talk to him about any problems. Never had anything to do with UK surveyors as only brought old working boats and it was possible to see the inside of the hull and bottom. The engine we took a chance on but had a good idea. When we brought the barge in Belgium there was a contract drawn up stating that the buyer would pay for the docking and survey and if all was good which meant hull plus 4mm the offer would be accepted, if the survey threw up big problems the buyer could walk away and the 10% deposit (held by the broker) would be returned. The alternative was for the seller to pay for the faults to be put right which was the case in our purchase. The surveyors are real professionals and the one we used to buy and also through our ownership for the 7 yearly insurance surveys was Lloyd’s registered.

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