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Pre-Purchase Surveys


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Hi all, 

 

We are just starting out and buying our first narrowboat (warning: novice!). We have read lots of advice about getting a pre-purchase survey prior to buying. 
 

I have spoken to a few sellers this week but they don’t seem to be very open when I ask them if we can arrange a pre-purchase survey? They don’t have the time to do one, or there’s no point doing one because we had a survey x months ago which they have provide, etc etc. 
 

I’m not sure if it’s just me being new to this whole process, but would you expect to sell a boat without arranging a pre-purchase survey paid for by the buyer? 
 

We are looking in the region of £45k-£70k, so I’m really hesitant to hand over that amount of money without some kind of independent assurance, what do you guys think? 

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Welcome to the forum,m both of you.

There are members here who are vehemently opposed to getting surveys before they buy a boat, but they are probably in  aminority. most prospective buyers would expect to get a survey done, and most reasonable sellers would expect them to do so. If they are reluctant, ask yourself, what have they got to hide?

   Are these private sellers or commercial brokers?

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39 minutes ago, charlotteandharry said:

Hi all, 

 

We are just starting out and buying our first narrowboat (warning: novice!). We have read lots of advice about getting a pre-purchase survey prior to buying. 
 

I have spoken to a few sellers this week but they don’t seem to be very open when I ask them if we can arrange a pre-purchase survey? They don’t have the time to do one, or there’s no point doing one because we had a survey x months ago which they have provide, etc etc. 
 

I’m not sure if it’s just me being new to this whole process, but would you expect to sell a boat without arranging a pre-purchase survey paid for by the buyer? 
 

We are looking in the region of £45k-£70k, so I’m really hesitant to hand over that amount of money without some kind of independent assurance, what do you guys think? 

 

Boats are selling so quickly that the sellers don't want to 'mess about' with buyers that want a survey and having to wait 2-3-4 weeks until a surveyor is available. They'd rather wait until a cash buyer comes along who doesn't want a survey and its simply 'pay the money and drive off with the boat'.

 

Some selres have even been known to agree to a potential buyer arranging a survey but then get fed up of waiting and just sell it to the first one who comes along and not wanting a survey, knowing that the potential buyer will just use the survey to force down the price anyway.

 

It is a sellers market at the moment (and has been for many years) so you need to decide if you want the boat or not, and if you'll meet the sellers terms or not.

 

Good luck.

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20 minutes ago, Athy said:

Welcome to the forum,m both of you.

There are members here who are vehemently opposed to getting surveys before hey buy a boat, but they are probably in  aminority. most prospective buyers would expect to get a survey done, and most reasonable sellers would expect them to do so. If they are reluctant, ask yourself, what have they got to hide?

   Are these private sellers or commercial brokers?


Thank you - really helpful. We have spoken to private sellers only so far. 

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Boats are selling so quickly that the sellers don't want to 'mess about' with buyers that want a survey and having to wait 2-3-4 weeks until a surveyor is available. They'd rather wait until a cash buyer comes along who doesn't want a survey and its simply 'pay the money and drive off with the boat'.

 

Some selres have even been known to agree to a potential buyer arranging a survey but then get fed up of waiting and just sell it to the first one who comes along and not wanting a survey, knowing that the potential buyer will just use the survey to force down the price anyway.

 

It is a sellers market at the moment (and has been for many years) so you need to decide if you want the boat or not, and if you'll meet the sellers terms or not.

 

Good luck.


Hi Alan - thank you, this is really helpful to know as I wasn’t sure what the market was like. 

 

we are using a finance company for some of it who require a survey as a condition, so this will be fun ha! 

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31 minutes ago, charlotteandharry said:


Hi Alan - thank you, this is really helpful to know as I wasn’t sure what the market was like. 

 

we are using a finance company for some of it who require a survey as a condition, so this will be fun ha! 

 

 

Entirely your business, how you fund it, but if it is a Marine Mortgage the lender normally requires the boat to be Part 1 registered on the Governments list as the boat is security against the loan

If, however you are having a personal loan then the bank will not require a survey, or Governement registration, or, even need to know what you are buying as it is YOU who is the 'security' against the loan

 

Small Ship Part I Registration

Your boat must have a unique name for registration on the Small Ships Register Part I. The cost is £153 for five (5) years. Part 1 of the British ship registry covers you in circumstances where you need to:

  • Prove you are the owner of the boat.
  • Prove the nationality of your small vessel.
  • Use the craft as security to apply for a marine mortgage.
  • Register a vessel for pleasure or recreational purposes.
  • Get 'transcripts of registry' showing previous owners and any outstanding mortgages.

 

Small Ships Register UK | MCA Cardiff Registry and Renewal (theukrules.co.uk)

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The state of the hull below the waterline is paramount. Corrosion can set in remarkably quickly.  Unfortunately there is no formula for predicting the condition of the hull relative to its age. Strange chemistry and odd electrical things can do a lot of damage in a short time so you need to at the very least see it out of the water and whilst its out you might as well pay for a survey and if you proceed with the sale you might as well paint it too. Welcome to the world of expensive boating. Next time you see an empty skip have a look at the bottom of it, if it is over 10 or 12 years old it will be nearly or totally rusted through. OK, its thinner steel, it has sat in puddles and with water in it and nobody ever painted it  but there are some boats that are not much different. Then again there are some perfectly OK boats. You need to check which one yours is.

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For a private seller a survey is a pain. Not only is it an opportunity for a buyer to beat the price down, but it usually involves the seller having to take time to take the boat to a dry dock or a yard with a crane or slipway. Then the surveyor will grind off patches of blacking to take ultrasound hull thickness measurements, and these patches will probably only get touched up quickly with a single coat of blacking - OK if the sale goes through, but if not it makes the hull look a mess and suggests to the next prospective buyer that a previous sale has fallen through and so there must be something wrong with the boat.

The need for finance is another red flag for a seller - someone else to throw a spanner in the works before a deal goes through.

So on the whole, in a buoyant market, its easier for the seller to wait for a straight cash buyer who doesn't want a survey, even if the offer is a little lower than the asking price.

 

Brokers are probably better if you want a survey as they have the contacts and resources to sort it all on behalf of the seller.

Edited by David Mack
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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

For a private seller a survey is a pain.

 

Seconded. 

 

The persistent advice in this thread to insist on a survey pretty much guarantees the OP will fail to buy boat after boat after perfectly good boat in today's market.

 

Nothing like insisting on a survey to piss off the seller of a sensibly-priced boat and make them accept another offer from another buyer willing to buy without. 

 

 

 

 

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In my opinion surveys quite literally arn't worth the paper they are written on.  If you ever get or see a survey, read the small print, it's a joke!  It basically says if the surveyor didn't see it, missed it or made any sort of mistake or omission then it's not they're fault and you don't have a let to stand on... IMHO save your money and do some repairs or maintenance with it...

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11 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

The need for finance is another red flag for a seller

Why should this be?? Most people selling a house wouldn't bat an eyelid if a buyer needed to get a mortgage, and the sums involved can be comparable.

   In any case, why would Charlotte and Harry need to inform the seller that they had taken out a bank loan. As long as their cheque doesn't bounce, it's none of the seller's damned business where the money came from.

10 hours ago, Quattrodave said:

In my opinion surveys quite literally arn't worth the paper they are written on.  If you ever get or see a survey, read the small print, it's a joke!  It basically says if the surveyor didn't see it, missed it or made any sort of mistake or omission then it's not they're fault and you don't have a let to stand on... 

isn't this the same with house surveys? Yet someone selling a house would expect a survey to be done before the transaction takes place.

 

However, as it's fifteen yearsv since we sold a boat, and over 20 years since we bought a second-hand one, standard procedures may have changed.

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We are in the process of buying a boat and, although I feel confident about the seller and the condition of the boat, I am aware that I am parting with a significant amount of money for something that is made of steel and is in constant contact with water. Frankly, I wouldn’t consider a purchase without a survey and if any seller put up obstacles to me getting one, I would be walking in a different direction. Buying a boat in the current market is a bit tricky but that doesn’t mean I am going to take unnecessary risks with our money. In a sellers market there is money to be made and where there is money to be made the unscrupulous are never far away. I’d go for certainty rather than an apparent bargain. 

Edited by TrevandLou
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I think if you are new to the world of steel boats / narrowboats it is terribly risky to buy a boat without a survey, however as Quattrodave says if anything goes wrong you will have little chance of recompense as there are more escape clauses than you could throw an anchor at. However if you can find a fabricator/welder to havea look then that is probably just as good if not better. Remember that steel rusts from both sides so unless you are confident that the boat is dry inside there will be some rust there too.

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Having such strongly held yet polar opposite views expressed doesn't help the OP.

 

I think it's important to read what they asked and also read between the lines a little. That suggests that they want - and perhaps need a survey - and I see no good reason why they should be dissuaded from that view.

 

With up to £70k to spend it seems that buying via a brokerage is a more likey outcome to get what they want. Reputable brokers will not shirk at the idea of a survey and will have the means to facilitate such.

 

I'd have a chat and get my name down at Rugby Boats; although they have nothing in that range at present they have a steady stream of boats coming in and out. Also have look at what ABNB have available. There are plenty of others - some that broker and some that deal - but ultimately it's about the boat not the seller.

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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8 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Having such strongly held yet polar opposite views expressed doesn't help the OP.

 

I think it's important to read what they asked and also read between the lines a little. That suggests that they want - and perhaps need a survey - and I see no good reason why they should be dissuaded from that view.

 

With up to £70k to spend it seems that buying via a brokerage is a more likey outcome to get what they want. Reputable brokers will not shirk at the idea of a survey and will have the means to facilitate such.

 

I'd have a chat and get my name down at Rugby Boats; although they have nothing in that range at present they have a steady stream of boats coming in and out. Also have look at what ABNB have available. There are plenty of others - some that broker and some that deal - but ultimately it's about the boat not the seller.

 

 

However some brokerages have a much better reputation for being honest than others; Rugby Boats and ABNB seem to be two of the best for this, others have been named and shamed on CWDF as less so... 😉

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1 hour ago, Athy said:

Why should this be?? Most people selling a house wouldn't bat an eyelid if a bbuyer needed to get a mortgage, and the sums involved can be comparable.

But most people buying a boat don't have finance secured on it as the OP is proposing. Most buyers either already have the cash or take a personal loan which is not secured on the boat. The possibility that the lender might not accept the survey is just another risk for the seller which doesn't arise with a cash buyer.

I agree that if you don't tell the seller about the finance it may not be an issue, but the seller may want some assurance the buyer has the money to go ahead if he is to take the boat off the market pending a survey.

1 hour ago, Athy said:

isn't this the same with house surveys? Yet someone selling a house would expect a survey to be done before the transaction takes place.

Most house purchasers have a valuation done for the mortgage lender, not a survey. The valuer doesn't even need to get out of his car, and during the pandemic many were done entirely as a desktop exercise using online data.

Edited by David Mack
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8 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

However some brokerages have a much better reputation for being honest than others; Rugby Boats and ABNB seem to be two of the best for this, others have been named and shamed on CWDF as less so... 😉

 

I could tell you of a personal bad experience with one of those, but it was under a previous ownership so I won't say which. All brokers and dealers will have sold lots of boats to satisfied customers. The key is that the OP gets the boat they want and are able to convince themselves it's the right boat. The boat is still more important than the seller, with the proviso that the seller allows the purchaser to confirm it is the right boat by facilitating a survey.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Most house purchasers have a valuation done for the mortgage lender, not a survey.

Surely they have the latter, which leads to the former.

Of course, we can't speak for "most house purchasers", but we have certainly had a survey done on every property we've bought, and the people who bought our last house had one too. It's a while ago, but from memory, the surveyor's report would run to several pages and would lead to a valuation which would be on the last page.

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21 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I could tell you of a personal bad experience with one of those, but it was under a previous ownership so I won't say which. All brokers and dealers will have sold lots of boats to satisfied customers. The key is that the OP gets the boat they want and are able to convince themselves it's the right boat. The boat is still more important than the seller, with the proviso that the seller allows the purchaser to confirm it is the right boat by facilitating a survey.

 

 

Agreed that the boat matters most, but I don't see a problem with also pointing the OP towards brokers who have a good reputation here, it can only increase their chances of having a good experience.

 

Whether people want to warn them off brokers who have not always been so honest -- and there have been plenty of posts about these too -- is a matter for the people who had the bad experiences and whether they're worried about being sued as a result... 😉

 

Remember all brokers are equally honest, but some are more equally honest than others... 🙂

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The question of survey on an older boat is thorny. 

Who gets the survey done? If its the seller, do you trust its accuracy?

If its the buyer, how do they arrange moving a boat they don't own to a dock to be lifted, banged with a hammer and have bits ground off? Who is responsible for the boat whilst this is done? Then there is the question of on who's insurance does all this stand?

And  does the seller accept the marking and possible damage to his boat if the buyer chooses not to purchase?

What if the surveyor bangs a hole in the hull? Who restores it to watertight? The seller who has no right to the survey because the buyer is paying for it or the buyer because they and their surveyor caused the damage?

I have known outwardly sound boats, that do not take on water, to sink following docking and surveying.

 

Little wonder that sellers are reluctant to offer buyers a chance to survey when there are customers waiting with money in hand to buy a boat as it stands, just like buying a used car.

 

And in the final analysis the survey is worth nothing anyway!

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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