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CRT endorsing diagonal use of locks


Adam

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Interesting they now endorse using locks diagonally, note the Broad and the C&H have the same published dimensions.

 

 

Quote

Huddersfield Narrow Canal Marsden Volunteer Assistance

Boaters wishing to pass through the Huddersfield Broad Canal are restricted to 57ft in length (Narrowboats of no more than 60ft in length can pass through diagonally)

 

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It’s implicitly required by the minimum dimensions that CRT are obliged to maintain on their waterways.

 

The size of Thorne lock was a recent topic of debate. The published maximum length there is stated as being the maximum length for a pair of narrowboats lying diagonally. It’d be a lot more useful if published the length of one narrowboat that fits diagonally.

 

Oddly there are canals in Yorkshire where the official craft size is (or maybe was) a lot larger than the locks they passed through. The Stainforth & Keadby is one of those.

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On 21/03/2023 at 11:54, Adam said:

Boaters wishing to pass through the Huddersfield Broad Canal are restricted to 57ft in length (Narrowboats of no more than 60ft in length can pass through diagonally)

 

A brief bit of Pythagorus reveals this doesn't really add up! 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

A brief bit of Pythagorus reveals this doesn't really add up! 

 

 

But it's not Pythagorus, is it?

 

A 57' wideboat with a square-ish stern can get through the locks, since this is what they were designed to accommodate. There has to be enough room to swing open each bottom gate past the stern, so the lock length from the cill to the tip of the "V" of the closed bottom gates has to be more than 60' to allow them to open. This means you can get a 60' narrowboat in by closing one bottom gate, taking it in through the open one, then moving it across behind the closed gate, then closing the other one, so the boat sits diagonally with the stern behind one bottom gate and the bow in the opposite corner. You also get another few inches with the bow at the top end, which is why some people recommend going down backwards. It's tight but doable with care.

 

At least, that's what I remember from doing it in a 57' boat -- you certainly can't get two 57' narrowboats into the shortest locks (Salterhebble?) because you can't close the bottom gates, but you can get one in with a bit of room to spare by jiggling it about.

 

Anyway the announcement makes me happy since this is exactly why I chose 60'... 😉

Edited by IanD
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5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

A brief bit of Pythagorus reveals this doesn't really add up! 

 

 

 

You're right. It's adds surprising little in theory. Less than 2' even for a boat of no width.

 

Though does anyone dispute that a 60' can physically (even if not comfortably) fit in these locks?

 

This is where oversailing the cill and using the space behind the furthest intruding point of the sweep of the gates has to be used.

 

2 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I wonder if you Cill a boat and damage it/sink going diagonally what the insurance company would say? Would the agree with taking a boat longer then the lock length through?

 

That's a good question. I think if you're inside the published craft dimensions you've got a good defence. If outside you'd possibly be in trouble.

 

But as i pointed out, some of CRT's maximum craft dimensions to relate to craft lying diagonally and the precedent for that is legally binding.

 

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6 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I wonder if you Cill a boat and damage it/sink going diagonally what the insurance company would say? Would they agree/endorse taking a boat longer than the lock length through?

  Is that an official quote from CaRT or from a volunteer site?

Presumably the same as if you cill and damage a boat in any lock due to inattention... 😉

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7 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

But it's not Pythagorus, is it?

 

A 57' wideboat with a square-ish stern can get through the locks, since this is what they were designed to accommodate. There has to be enough room to swing open each bottom gate past the stern, so the lock length from the cill to the tip of the "V" of the closed bottom gates has to be more than 60' to allow them to open. This means you can get a 60' narrowboat in by closing one bottom gate, taking it in through the open one, then moving it across behind the closed gate, then closing the other one, so the boat sits diagonally with the stern behind one bottom gate and the bow in the opposite corner. You also get another few inches with the bow at the top end, which is why some people recommend going down backwards. It's tight but doable with care.

 

 

As you comment it isn't pythagoras, certainly not as applied to the lock chamber dimensions - it's the length to the gate mitre from the top cill

 

I've highlighted the bit about being diagonal as, except for those absolutely pushing the limit, the boat can often lie against the wall whilst the lock fills or empties as the available chamber length with the gates closed is enough - the whole boat is moved to the side behind the closed gate unless you really need the last few inches

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

Anyway the announcement makes me happy since this is exactly why I chose 60'... 😉

 

Juno's 23 foot, there was a 24 foot narrow boat for sale on my moorings recently, but that seemed a bit reckless ;) 

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2 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

As you comment it isn't pythagoras, certainly not as applied to the lock chamber dimensions - it's the length to the gate mitre from the top cill

 

I've highlighted the bit about being diagonal as, except for those absolutely pushing the limit, the boat can often lie against the wall whilst the lock fills or empties as the available chamber length with the gates closed is enough - the whole boat is moved to the side behind the closed gate unless you really need the last few inches

 

Juno's 23 foot, there was a 24 foot narrow boat for sale on my moorings recently, but that seemed a bit reckless ;) 

 

That's what we did with a 57' -- and come June I'll report back on how easy (or not) it is with a 60'...🙂

Edited by IanD
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4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

That's what we did with a 57' -- and come June I'll report back on how easy (or not) it is with a 60'...🙂

We have done this quite a few times - Salterhebble the first time in each boat was a bit nail biting in advance but not complicated so long as you take it slowly and with plenty of awareness. Best to have well briefed crew gto shout a warning if the steerer does not spot it. We came up Salterhebble the right way both up and down, but I would always add the proviso that everyone has to make their own judgement! Helps the nerves if you have enough time to go another way in the event that it has shrunk since last time.

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38 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

We have done this quite a few times - Salterhebble the first time in each boat was a bit nail biting in advance but not complicated so long as you take it slowly and with plenty of awareness. Best to have well briefed crew gto shout a warning if the steerer does not spot it. We came up Salterhebble the right way both up and down, but I would always add the proviso that everyone has to make their own judgement! Helps the nerves if you have enough time to go another way in the event that it has shrunk since last time.

 

I know it's in Yorkshire, but it would take an *awful* lot of rain to make a lock shrink in length... 😉

 

Going by last time I went through Salterhebble, the other reason for going down backwards is to stop the steerer getting a free cold shower from the top gate leaks -- I got my shoes filled up and the stern rope washed off into the lock (yes I know...) 😞

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3 hours ago, IanD said:

I know it's in Yorkshire, but it would take an *awful* lot of rain to make a lock shrink in length... 😉

 

 

Doesn't the length vary according to whether you're buying or selling? 

 

Or mebbe that's something else! 

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15 hours ago, IanD said:

Going by last time I went through Salterhebble, the other reason for going down backwards is to stop the steerer getting a free cold shower from the top gate leaks -- I got my shoes filled up and the stern rope washed off into the lock (yes I know...) 😞

 
 You’ll be getting your shoes wet long before you get there💦💦

 The reason why you should let some water through from the above pound before you go into the lock, so no water is going over, if you don’t you get wet, as you’ll need to be up to the Cill to get out.

D427C002-0BBC-4419-91C8-8C5A2B9757C7.jpeg.f7c181f6c956b25489f441acf82bd062.jpeg

Edited by BoatinglifeupNorth
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The 57’ 6” x 14’ 2” published dimensions for these canals relate directly to sizes of craft observed to be operating on them at the time of 1967 study that is enshrined in law by the Transport Act 1968.

 

The same study states the limiting lock dimensions as 61’ 0” x 14’ 4”.

 

All dimensions are composite i.e. they are derived from multiple boats so it doesn’t follow that a craft that is 57’ 6” x 14’ 2” will fit; and I think we can safely say that one 61’ x 14’ 4” will not fit.

 

Do they also pre-date the fitting of the guillotine gate at Salterhebble?

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I've just been through the area: the guillotine lock was fine, but one or two others were tight, required assistance from the  land crew to get out.

I'm fifty seven ft, went through in normal orientation, but I'd be worried about sixty feet.

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1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 
 You’ll be getting your shoes wet long before you get there💦💦

 The reason why you should let some water through from the above pound before you go into the lock, so no water is going over, if you don’t you get wet, as you’ll need to be up to the Cill to get out.

D427C002-0BBC-4419-91C8-8C5A2B9757C7.jpeg.f7c181f6c956b25489f441acf82bd062.jpeg

 

That's not why I got wet, water wasn't coming over the top, it was leaking through and around the gates, in particular there was a fountain coming from under one gate and landing right on the stern. And that photo looks like the Rochdale 9 to me...

 

Anyway if I go through (either direction) with the bows next to the top gates this won't be a problem, the bows are watertight ("potter's cabin" and no well deck) -- one reason for doing this with a 60' boat... 😉

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I've just been through the area: the guillotine lock was fine, but one or two others were tight, required assistance from the  land crew to get out.

I'm fifty seven ft, went through in normal orientation, but I'd be worried about sixty feet.

 

Many people have been through with 60' boats and reported that it's tight and needs care but is doable -- and it's now what the advice says too.

 

But it does help a lot if you don't have a well deck or any way for water to get in at the bows -- see above comment and photo below...

 

20230306_125600(1).jpg

Edited by IanD
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35 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Not the Rochdale, Tinsley Flight deep lock and you can’t go down backwards, as I say you will need to go up to the Cill to get out, so drain down before you go in and make sure no one is going through the previous lock, as you’ll get a lock full of water coming over as well.

 

Thanks for the advice. I'll steer from inside the closed rear (semi-trad) doors then, that should keep most of the water out -- the stern outside them is watertight, and the doors have a small upstand underneath... 🙂

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52 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Not the Rochdale, Tinsley Flight deep lock and you can’t go down backwards, as I say you will need to go up to the Cill to get out, so drain down before you go in and make sure no one is going through the previous lock, as you’ll get a lock full of water coming over as well.

 Isn't that one a little bit longer than Salterhebble though - so a boat at the absolute limit for Salterhebble would fit comfortably (well, without jigerry-pokery) in Tinsley. 

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14 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 Isn't that one a little bit longer than Salterhebble though - so a boat at the absolute limit for Salterhebble would fit comfortably (well, without jigerry-pokery) in Tinsley. 

Yes 57/58’ok, boats 60’-61’5” with the amount of water that comes over get wet, that’s why it’s obviously best to have nothing coming over the gates before you set and have no boats in opening the previous lock. Looking at it, it looks an obvious thing to do, to stay dry but few do it and they get wet, there’s enough water coming down the flight to be able to drain a little.

Edited by BoatinglifeupNorth
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2 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Yes 57/58’ok, boats 60’-61’5” with the amount of water that comes over get wet, that’s why it’s obviously best to have nothing coming over the gates before you set and have no boats in opening the previous lock. Looking at it it looks an obvious thing to do, to stay dry but few do it and they get wet, there’s enough water coming down the flight to be able to drain a little.

 

I didn't think the Tinsley flight was usually busy enough to have several boats following each other down, especially on a Tuesday morning... 😉

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Just now, IanD said:

 

I didn't think the Tinsley flight was usually busy enough to have several boats following each other down, especially on a Tuesday morning... 😉

All depends, like buses sometimes nothing for weeks, then 4x show up, 2x Narrows and a 60’x12” in at the minute. You know what some boaters are like, they pair up to come up and down. Been busy the last couple of years with the stoppages going West, so boats from the Trent access, have been going up waiting for the stoppages to open.

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