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Survey outcome - Hull?


LilMissMolly

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Hey all!

first of all I just wanted to thank everyone who helped me last time I posted - gave me a lot to think about and there was some really great advice!

 

obviously I’ve decided to go for it!

 

I’ve potentially found a boat, she’s an old gal - 1986 colecraft that’s 54ft.

New BSS and recently blacked this year.

bit dated on the inside but nothing I can’t change, everything is in working order.

I just want to make sure the Hull is okay before going all in.

 

She has been overplated and I was wondering if someone would be so kind as to help me out regarding what came back in the survey - I know most people say avoid overplated boats like the plague but I’m limited when it comes to my budget and making sure I’m not stretching myself too thin (no pun intended).

from reading on here, it seems like as long as the overplating has been done well, there shouldn’t really be much to worry about on that front?

 

Here’s the key points regarding the Hull:

- fully welded and constructed using a combination of 12/10/8/6/4 plates, has been overplated and spot welded in some areas.

- 4.5m x 20cm steel strips of 6mm plate have been welded just above the base plate around both sides of the swim. The base plate in this area (beneath the engine bay) has also been over-plated with 6mm plate.

- The sacrificial edges around the base plate have generally worn to around 5mm in thickness.

- there are a number of short sections of 'D' section steel strips which have been welded in place just above the base plate where those edges have worn thin.

- reports that it’s likely that further sacrificial strips will need to be welded in place to protect the welded seams in future (no indication of when this will be most likely)

- the surface of the underwater base plates were found quite 'undulating' with wear and pitting consistent with the age of the vessel, the bow and stern were found less uneven. 
- There has been a good deal of spot welding to the side plates over the years where pits have been filled to re-instate thickness levels.

- The welded seams between the base and side plates were found sound and continuous.

- Visual inspection of the underwater hull did not reveal any signs of major damage or repair and plate thickness readings were carried out using a TM-8811ultrasonic point residual thickness gauge calibrated to an accuracy of 0.01mm. 

- base plate pitting came back at 3.5mm (the highest in the survey) but the thickness measurement was between 9.5/12.7.

- bow base plates were 2.0mm for pitting but between 11.1/12.5 for thickness.

- engine bay baseplate which was overplated came in at 0.5 pitting and 5.9/6mm thickness.

- port side plates 1.5 and between 6.7/8.2 thickness.

- port side swim plates 1.0 and between 5.4/5.9 thickness

the overplated lower (20cm) for this was lesser than 0.5 with thickness reading 5.9/6.0.

- port bow sides 1.2 with 6.7/7.5 thickness.

- starboard side plates 1.5 and between 6.7/8.2 thickness.

- starboard swim side plates 1.2 and 5.5/6.1 thickness.

the overplated lower (20cm) for this being lesser than 0.5 with thickness reading 5.9/6.0.

- starboard bow sides 1.2 and between 6.7/7.3 thickness.

- counter base 1.5 and between 11.0/12.3 thickness

- no pitting for superstructure (3.4/3.5) or coach roof (3.4)


so whilst above the minimum steel thickness - I am simply too much of a newbie to grasp if this is a boat worth investing in or if it’s going to be more of a money pit than a boat already will be.

My Surveyor said its not uncommon to see overplating on a boat this age and ultimately what’s came back wouldn’t be enough to make it a dealbreaker in his eyes. (From my research, it seems that she at one point in her life was a hire boat, which could somewhat explain the overplating?)

 

What do you all think?

worth going ahead or run for the hills?

 

many thanks if you read my essay and really do appreciate any advice you can throw my way!

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21 minutes ago, LilMissMolly said:

What do you all think?

worth going ahead or run for the hills?

 

As always it depends on the price and your personal attitude to risk. This boat is clearly living on borrowed time but it might have one helluvalot of it to go. So if its £10k or £15k I'd deffly go for it. I'd probably go for it at even £25k but far younger boats can be found once you get over £30k.

 

Chances are high that if you bought this boat and just used it, never docking it, blacking it of anything, it would still be floating in another 25 years. How lucky do you feel?!

 

 

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4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

As always it depends on the price and your personal attitude to risk. This boat is clearly living on borrowed time but it might have one helluvalot of it to go.

 

Chances are high that if you bought this boat and just used it, never docking it, blacking it of anything, it would still be floating in another 25 years. How lucky do you feel?!

 


To be fair, there’s always a risk when it comes to boats in general it seems! 

So ready for some form of risk but don’t want her to be inevitably sat at the bottom of the Nene anytime soon! - 25 years is good in my books, beyond that would be fabulous, although never guaranteed I know!

 

unfortunately due to the nature of my job, I’m going to be stuck in a Marina most of the time - the odd adventure out when I’m lucky enough to get some time off was the plan and I’m a bit of a stickler for regular maintaince as don’t like to tempt fate more than I need to! - plus it’s good to take pride and look after things in general right?

So in that sense, I do plan on keeping up with the blacking and monitoring when that time comes and hopefully can extend her life somewhat by living a less adventure fuelled life!

 

I just don’t want a situation where in the near future I’ll be paying out the arse on trying to keep what wants to be dead alive if the risk was extremely high and evident from the start! - if she’s looking like she stands a good chance of being around in 25 years but goes tits up, I can chalk that up to crap luck for me and I’ll have to take it on the chin. 

They don’t say Bring Out Another Thousand for no reason after all! 😂

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9 minutes ago, LilMissMolly said:

So ready for some form of risk but don’t want her to be inevitably sat at the bottom of the Nene anytime soon!

 

OMG the Nene can do that to ANY boat, old or new. Look through old posts by username 'tree". There is a photo of her boat ten feet under in Billing Marina. 

 

But broadly speaking I think you'll be fine with your view of LTUAE (Life, the universe etc...) A newer boat for more munny would be better but cheap boats still get you on the water and the view is the same from a 1986 bargain as from a £250k newbuild! 

 

Cue a stream of posts quibbling with all I just said! 

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

OMG the Nene can do that to ANY boat, old or new. Look through old posts by username 'tree". There is a photo of her boat ten feet under in Billing Marina. 

 

But broadly speaking I think you'll be fine with your view of LTUAE (Life, the universe etc...) A newer boat for more munny would be better but cheap boats still get you on the water and the view is the same from a 1986 bargain as from a £250k newbuild! 

 

Cue a stream of posts quibbling with all I just said! 

 

 

 

 


Oh I have absolutely no doubt about that!! It can be pretty brutal around here for sure. 
(I also hope Tree managed to sort things out and return to boat life! Absolutely devastating what happened there)

 

I’m just trying to decide with the things I do have some control over really! 
A new boat would be grand but my bank account says I need to forget about that idea at this stage in life - if old gal can provide me with a good amount of years without draining my finances well beyond the “general” expectations, then I’m rather happy with marching on ahead with the plans to make her home.

 

Certainly took some time overcoming the idea that not all overplated boats are destined to sink in a short space of time and that pitting can be somewhat expected!

Plus it’s being realistic about things when the market is booming with no signs of slowing down - they sure do sell like hotcakes at the moment!!!

 

just wanted to make sure the Hull wasn’t a complete write off beforehand and the equivalent of flushing my money down the toilet tomorrow! 😂

 

If you think the odds are promising in my favour, I’ll certainly trust your judgement - always good for us newbies to run things by those who have a lot of experience!

 

So thank you, really do appreciate it!


ohhhh if they do, it just means different perspectives and things to think about, not necessarily a bad thing for me to do either as a first time boat buyer! 😅

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24 minutes ago, LilMissMolly said:


Oh I have absolutely no doubt about that!! It can be pretty brutal around here for sure. 
(I also hope Tree managed to sort things out and return to boat life! Absolutely devastating what happened there)

 

I’m just trying to decide with the things I do have some control over really! 
A new boat would be grand but my bank account says I need to forget about that idea at this stage in life - if old gal can provide me with a good amount of years without draining my finances well beyond the “general” expectations, then I’m rather happy with marching on ahead with the plans to make her home.

 

Certainly took some time overcoming the idea that not all overplated boats are destined to sink in a short space of time and that pitting can be somewhat expected!

Plus it’s being realistic about things when the market is booming with no signs of slowing down - they sure do sell like hotcakes at the moment!!!

 

just wanted to make sure the Hull wasn’t a complete write off beforehand and the equivalent of flushing my money down the toilet tomorrow! 😂

 

If you think the odds are promising in my favour, I’ll certainly trust your judgement - always good for us newbies to run things by those who have a lot of experience!

 

So thank you, really do appreciate it!


ohhhh if they do, it just means different perspectives and things to think about, not necessarily a bad thing for me to do either as a first time boat buyer! 😅

 

I cannot advise you on the issue of your hull condition. I am in no way qualified to interpret that survey report.

 

I can however advise on the advice you will get here. And sorry if this is me engaging in teaching granny to suck eggs.

 

It will often vary considerably, hugely in fact and only you can decide who's advice you take onboard as to whether this boat is a sound purchase or not.

 

Any advice on here comes with no guarantee or comeback so often advice will be given often in good faith but at the end of the day is worthless if its wrong.

 

Look back over the posts of those offering the advice and try and form a view of those who seem to know what they are talking about re hull condition.

 

But whatever, good luck.

 

 

Edited by M_JG
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So it started out with a 12mm base plate,   good.

It has pits which have been welded      good.

The sides have been overplated part way up,    good.

Some extra D bar welded on to protect the wearing edge,   good

Thinning near the edges,   not good, needs shoes on the corners of the baseplate.

The base plate has been partially overplated with 6mm,  not good. Should have been the whole base plate.  And thicker than 6mm.  

Its 37 years old,  very bad.

It has needed welding work already, possibly it will need more regularly,   very bad.

 

However there are no found pits that leave less than 4mm of steel thickness so it is insurable fully comp.

If its is selling for less than £30k its about right in the present market.  Should have been £20k 3 years ago, or  £8k to £10k before any work was done

 

If you are intending keeping it long term then its worth a gambol.

If you intend spending money on the inside with a view to selling it in the near future, forget it. You are having the jitters about buying it, so how are you going to sell it on to someone else?

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I think Tracy had summed up the situation very well (the only point I would quibble with is current valuation - I think £30k is a bit on the low side especially if you are anywhere from Birmingham southwards).

 

The survey reads like the previous owner has stayed on top of any problems. As long as you are true to your words on maintenance, which every two to three years having the boat out of the water and blacked the hull is unlikely to cause you any sudden dramatic problems. A haul out and blacking (and other minor work you get done at the same time like anodes and welding any pits etc) will cost you near £1000 each time - so budget for that and you will probably be fine for many years. 

 

As you intend to stay in a marina make sure (double and triple check) the boat has a functioning galvanic isolator fitted, this is critical to minimising the risk of sudden fast corrosion issues. (If it doesn't it is not a deal breaker but is a negotiating point- it will  cost a couple of hundred pounds to have one fitted)

 

 

Given its an older boat in reality all the electrical and mechanical systems on the boat will probably give you more day to day problems than the hull and cost you more in maintenance and upgrades over time.

 

Good luck with your future 

 

 

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What I find unusual is that the non-overplated areas (base plate) on a 1986 boat have 1/2" (12.7mm) thickness.

 

I find that very unusual in a boat of that age which more normally would have had (probably) only an 8mm base plate, with 10mm coming in a few years later.

My 1998 NB was quite in usual (for the time) having a 1/2" base plate.

 

Other questions would be :

 

What manufacturer is the boat. ?

Does it have a 'wooden top' ?

Does it have a GRP top ?

What price is it ?

 

The survey suggests that the hull is OK for now but that you will need to be ready for additional (expensive) works within a few years. The fact that you are planning to use it as a 'non-mobile' floating flat in a marina means that you will be reducing the wear and tear (rubbing along concrete lock sides, armco bank sidings, and the botton of the canal), so, it will 'last longer'.

 

I am out of date with current pricings, but I sold a NB some years ago in better condition for £10k, but even in todays market, I would not have thought 'your boat' was worth having if it is over £20k.

 

It is all down to the price of the boat and your acceptance that largish costs are on the horizon.

 

Is it better to buy now and regret the decision, or better to wait, save up some more cash and by a better boat that will last longer before major expenditure is required.

 

Only you can make that decision

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38 minutes ago, Awayonmyboat said:

As you intend to stay in a marina make sure (double and triple check) the boat has a functioning galvanic isolator fitted, this is critical to minimising the risk of sudden fast corrosion issues. (If it doesn't it is not a deal breaker but is a negotiating point- it will  cost a couple of hundred pounds to have one fitted)

 

To point out to the OP that Galvanic isolators should have some kind of indicator on them to show a lay person they are working, and that some may not be safe after a fault incident because of low specification parts.

 

For long term marina use, rather than popping in for a few days on a shoreline, I would suggest an isolation transformer is probably a better solution to the electrical corrosion problem. However, the differences are arguable, so having one or the other is the important bit.

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I find that very unusual in a boat of that age which more normally would have had (probably) only an 8mm base plate, with 10mm coming in a few years later.

My 1998 NB was quite in usual (for the time) having a 1/2" base plate.

 

 

My 1991 Colecraft was surveyed and was found to have a 12mm baseplate, that I suspect meant 1/2" when built. as it was built for a reputable hire fleet, maybe that was what the fleet specified. The OP's boat is only three years older, so 12mm may well be correct.

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The fact is that steel corrodes and although its a great material for boatbuilding it is remarkably short lived when immersed. Luckily it is endlessly repairable so after 30 years or so it can be patched, a few years later it can be patched or overplated even more and after that if the boat is worth the expense the old stuff can be cut out and with some new frames and plating you can start all over again. 30 or 40 years is not the whole lifespan of a steel boat, just look at the ancient things floating around all over the world and if you look carefully there are plenty of rivetted commercials still working hard in Europe and I doubt if any of those are original below the waterline. Hull repairs are just part of the life of a steel boat.

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4 minutes ago, Bee said:

The fact is that steel corrodes and although its a great material for boatbuilding it is remarkably short lived when immersed. Luckily it is endlessly repairable so after 30 years or so it can be patched, a few years later it can be patched or overplated even more and after that if the boat is worth the expense the old stuff can be cut out and with some new frames and plating you can start all over again. 30 or 40 years is not the whole lifespan of a steel boat, just look at the ancient things floating around all over the world and if you look carefully there are plenty of rivetted commercials still working hard in Europe and I doubt if any of those are original below the waterline. Hull repairs are just part of the life of a steel boat.

Most of the riveted hulls around are not mild steel but iron  plate which corrodes at a much slower rate.

 

!/2" bottom plates though not common in 1986 are often found especially on hire boat fleets. Colecraft built many with thicker plate.

Is this an ex hire boat? If so its value is slightly less. The fitout would suggest not unless it has been refitted completely.

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15 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

My 1991 Colecraft was surveyed and was found to have a 12mm baseplate, that I suspect meant 1/2" when built. as it was built for a reputable hire fleet, maybe that was what the fleet specified. The OP's boat is only three years older, so 12mm may well be correct.

 

My 1998 (Juno) was built for a hire fleet so whilst it would probably have been 10mm as the 'norm' the 1/2" could, again' have been a hire fleet requirement.

She was sold out of the fleet at the age of 5 years, which seems to be very young for the sell-off of a hire boat.

 

 

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Edited by Alan de Enfield
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12 hours ago, LilMissMolly said:

Hey all!

first of all I just wanted to thank everyone who helped me last time I posted - gave me a lot to think about and there was some really great advice!

 

obviously I’ve decided to go for it!

 

I’ve potentially found a boat, she’s an old gal - 1986 colecraft that’s 54ft.

New BSS and recently blacked this year.

bit dated on the inside but nothing I can’t change, everything is in working order.

I just want to make sure the Hull is okay before going all in.

 

She has been overplated and I was wondering if someone would be so kind as to help me out regarding what came back in the survey - I know most people say avoid overplated boats like the plague but I’m limited when it comes to my budget and making sure I’m not stretching myself too thin (no pun intended).

from reading on here, it seems like as long as the overplating has been done well, there shouldn’t really be much to worry about on that front?

 

Here’s the key points regarding the Hull:

- fully welded and constructed using a combination of 12/10/8/6/4 plates, has been overplated and spot welded in some areas.

- 4.5m x 20cm steel strips of 6mm plate have been welded just above the base plate around both sides of the swim. The base plate in this area (beneath the engine bay) has also been over-plated with 6mm plate.

- The sacrificial edges around the base plate have generally worn to around 5mm in thickness.

- there are a number of short sections of 'D' section steel strips which have been welded in place just above the base plate where those edges have worn thin.

- reports that it’s likely that further sacrificial strips will need to be welded in place to protect the welded seams in future (no indication of when this will be most likely)

- the surface of the underwater base plates were found quite 'undulating' with wear and pitting consistent with the age of the vessel, the bow and stern were found less uneven. 
- There has been a good deal of spot welding to the side plates over the years where pits have been filled to re-instate thickness levels.

- The welded seams between the base and side plates were found sound and continuous.

- Visual inspection of the underwater hull did not reveal any signs of major damage or repair and plate thickness readings were carried out using a TM-8811ultrasonic point residual thickness gauge calibrated to an accuracy of 0.01mm. 

- base plate pitting came back at 3.5mm (the highest in the survey) but the thickness measurement was between 9.5/12.7.

- bow base plates were 2.0mm for pitting but between 11.1/12.5 for thickness.

- engine bay baseplate which was overplated came in at 0.5 pitting and 5.9/6mm thickness.

- port side plates 1.5 and between 6.7/8.2 thickness.

- port side swim plates 1.0 and between 5.4/5.9 thickness

the overplated lower (20cm) for this was lesser than 0.5 with thickness reading 5.9/6.0.

- port bow sides 1.2 with 6.7/7.5 thickness.

- starboard side plates 1.5 and between 6.7/8.2 thickness.

- starboard swim side plates 1.2 and 5.5/6.1 thickness.

the overplated lower (20cm) for this being lesser than 0.5 with thickness reading 5.9/6.0.

- starboard bow sides 1.2 and between 6.7/7.3 thickness.

- counter base 1.5 and between 11.0/12.3 thickness

- no pitting for superstructure (3.4/3.5) or coach roof (3.4)


so whilst above the minimum steel thickness - I am simply too much of a newbie to grasp if this is a boat worth investing in or if it’s going to be more of a money pit than a boat already will be.

My Surveyor said its not uncommon to see overplating on a boat this age and ultimately what’s came back wouldn’t be enough to make it a dealbreaker in his eyes. (From my research, it seems that she at one point in her life was a hire boat, which could somewhat explain the overplating?)

 

What do you all think?

worth going ahead or run for the hills?

 

many thanks if you read my essay and really do appreciate any advice you can throw my way!

 

Some of the specific questions you might have here can only be answered by your surveyor, who should be willing to do this within reason as part of the service you paid for. Would have thought he can give you an opinion on new sacrificial strips (is it an imminent thing, a "next blacking" thing or a "maybe in another 5 or 10 years" thing?). They can probably also give you a subjective opinion on how good the overplating that's been done is, and whether the many bits of work done is a sign of thorough regular maintenance or patching stuff on the cheap.

 

But it's insurable, has a thicker than average base plate, and if they're saying there's no cause for alarm, there probably isn't.

And it seems like you were well aware that you weren't buying a premium boat and it's priced accordingly.

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Only you can judge whether it's good value to you or not, but there's nothing in that survey that scares me nor that I'd personally bother to rectify immediately especially if you're not doing much cruising, just budget that you might need to have a bit of work done next time it comes out. I'm not a professional marine fabricator but I have done extensive work on my own hull and do charge by the hour in my line of work (get your mind out the gutter, please...) and I'd expect to be spending £2-3k to have the sacrificial edge and pitting sorted, at some point 

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15 hours ago, LilMissMolly said:

I’ve potentially found a boat, she’s an old gal - 1986 colecraft that’s 54ft.

I trust you are not paying anything like the asking price for the only 54ft 1986 Colecraft on Apolloduck. There are enough differences in the description that I can see its not the same boat, but the asking price is ludicrous for a boat of that age!

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11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I trust you are not paying anything like the asking price for the only 54ft 1986 Colecraft on Apolloduck. There are enough differences in the description that I can see its not the same boat, but the asking price is ludicrous for a boat of that age!

 

£56,500 for a 37 year old boat - MADNESS !

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21 hours ago, David Mack said:

I trust you are not paying anything like the asking price for the only 54ft 1986 Colecraft on Apolloduck. There are enough differences in the description that I can see its not the same boat, but the asking price is ludicrous for a boat of that age!


oh wow!!

yeah definitely not the boat I’m looking at!!!

for that price I could get something a lot younger and less needing of modernising! 😂

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If you buy the boat, and the budget stretches to it, then when you take it out for blacking, having it cleaned off and painted with two-pack, would definitely protect it from external corrosion and extend it's useful life.  If the budget allows it.

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On 18/03/2023 at 22:41, LilMissMolly said:

 

Here’s the key points regarding the Hull:

- fully welded and constructed using a combination of 12/10/8/6/4 plates, has been overplated and spot welded in some areas.

 

Just for my own education, what parts of the hull do these figures refer to? I thought 4 steel thicknesses were usually given unless the hull is double chined and the angled chine plates are 10mm, or is that the uxter plates?

 

12mm - baseplate

10mm ? uxter plate

8mm - sides

6mm - cabin sides

4mm - roof

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

Just for my own education, what parts of the hull do these figures refer to? I thought 4 steel thicknesses were usually given unless the hull is double chined and the angled chine plates are 10mm, or is that the uxter plates?

 

12mm - baseplate

10mm ? uxter plate

8mm - sides

6mm - cabin sides

4mm - roof

 

 

 

 

That is as fair a guess as anything else, but it seems a very heavily built boat of so. I suspect it might be poor ultrasonic tester reading, and it includes over-plate in certain areas ------ that is until we are told differently.

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2 hours ago, Peanut said:

If you buy the boat, and the budget stretches to it, then when you take it out for blacking, having it cleaned off and painted with two-pack, would definitely protect it from external corrosion and extend it's useful life.  If the budget allows it.

That deserves repeating. Just make sure you do the bottom as well.

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1 hour ago, Bee said:

That deserves repeating. Just make sure you do the bottom as well.

 

That's easier said than done. You've got to be able to grit blast the baseplate to give it adequate preparation. That was my plan last summer and I actually found a yard willing to blast it so that I could epoxy the baseplate myself. However when my 17 year old boat came out the water after 7 years the baseplate looked brand new so the plan changed and he blasted off all the old epoxy on the sides instead. 

 

The other complication is that if your are painting the baseplate then you'll need to move the boat into a different position on the supports so you can paint those bits as well. If you don't then the argument is you create an unprotected "anodic" area that corrosion will become even more focused on than had you not painted it at all.

 

4 hours ago, Peanut said:

If you buy the boat, and the budget stretches to it, then when you take it out for blacking, having it cleaned off and painted with two-pack, would definitely protect it from external corrosion and extend it's useful life.  If the budget allows it.

 

Blasted, not cleaned off. Correct preparation is critical.

 

Epoxying will only be advantageous if the product's technical data sheet is followed to the letter. The problem with some yards is that the blokes doing the job aren't technical in the slightest and probably won't even read the TDS. They think you can just mix it up in whatever proportions and slap it on like bitumen.

Edited by blackrose
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