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HRW2 coolant leak found.


Karen Lea Rainey

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Hi All,

 

On a newish to me boat, one which I have been slowly improving/ doing up, I have just had 3 days away on it for the first time.

It has been lying in my marina undergoing some modern touches to various parts of the narrowboat.

It is a 45ft , Mike Heywood built 1982 trad with boatmans cabin, engine room, galley and saloon.

I'm quite proud of the way the boat is taking shape.

 

Engine 1978  HRW2 Lister, runs very well, sounds sweet, been around the block a few times but still works for me.

 

Anyway, having gone away this week  for 3 8 hour journeys I've had to top up the coolant each morning with upto 1 litre,  only a very small amount has ended up in the bilge, so I'm guessing ! That the coolant has mostly been evaporated on the engine block before reaching the bilge floor.

Today having looked again at every hose connection to the engine, calorifier,  radiator, jabsco pump, thermostat, skin tank, unvented top up tank etc,

I came across what I think is the culprit,

Behind the air filter is an exhaust manifold pipe water cooling pipe ( if that's what its called).

The state of the block here shows a leak that has been going on for years and years.

There is a hose which connects between  the two engine block water passages, with another hose going upright into the water cooled exhaust  manifold.

The jubilee clips look original and are clearly very rusted/worn ,

The leak is to the left hand pipe before re-entering the block circulation, 

It looks like on closer inspection that the leak is not at the remaining left hand jubilee clip but, the steel pipe entering the block,

After scratching the rusty area and scraping bits of paint away this pipe looks like it's an inner and outer pipe that are joined together with a hylomar type  sealant which has now failed after 40+ years.

 

Finally my question for advice is this,

Is this a serviceable/ replacement steel/ cast iron pipe, if what is it called, where could I get on from.?

Or in the short term, could I use / bodge it with a Milliput cement or other product that works on hot pipes/ boilers/ water pipes.

Pictures  for help below,

Thanks, keith

IMG_20230318_100916.jpg

IMG_20230318_100711.jpg

IMG_20230318_100742.jpg

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I would suggest that you contact Richard (@RLWP)   at https://www.mes-midlands.co.uk/

 

The bit you show looks like a casting, but how it is attached to the cylinder block I don't know. Guessing at what it is for, I can't see why it should have another pipe inside it. I have no idea how it is attached to the block or if it is part of the block casting, so can't be much help.

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On the third picture there is rust on the pipe which looks to drop down from the bottom of the water cooled exhaust manifold. That could be a sign of water running down to the lower pipes which are much rustier. In the second picture is that very rusty piece actually part of the block? It doesn't look to be quite straight and if it was part of the block you wouldn't be able to assemble the T piece and hoses to the right of it.

There also appears to be a hose clip missing on the left hand leg of that T piece.

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I avoid using Jubilee clips if I can. They tend to pinch under the scroll screw and the curved bit underneath it never really conforms properly with curvature of the hose and tend to leak there. Best to use clips which have a perfect all around circular gggrip on the hose.

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15 minutes ago, David Mack said:

On the third picture there is rust on the pipe which looks to drop down from the bottom of the water cooled exhaust manifold. That could be a sign of water running down to the lower pipes which are much rustier. In the second picture is that very rusty piece actually part of the block? It doesn't look to be quite straight and if it was part of the block you wouldn't be able to assemble the T piece and hoses to the right of it.

There also appears to be a hose clip missing on the left hand leg of that T piece.

Yes, it a T piece with a 2 " hose either side then entering the very rusty block, that's why I say it must have been like it for many years,

Just slightly out of site, unless you get on your hands and knees with a torch.

Here is the missing jubilee clip, fell off in my hand (40+ years service)

16791440556733547211982530047154.jpg

Probably answering my own question here,

The leak is not where the jubilee clip is missing,

It is more to the left by about an inch, this is where the holymar type sealant is and where was wet to the touch earlier.

Could it be that this small 'collet' type pipe actually screws into the block and the sealant has been put on the threads of it.

After 40 years this wont want to come out without dangerous persuasion to the block.

 

"Me thinks" boiler cement may be a good, albeit temporary repair. And a replacement clip just in case without disturbing it to much to see how it goes.

IMG_20230318_100711.jpg

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Thats all going to have to come apart for a good inspection, scrape and paint. There is just a small chance thats its part a casting that has failed and this could be time consuming to fix. I assume you have an electricity supply and are not dependant on the engine?.

In future use proper stainless Jubilee clips as made by Jubilee, they are quite expensive, but the cheap clips sold on eBay are mostly rubbish.

 

45 foot is very short to fit a back cabin and engine room, how about posting some photos of the boat?

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2 hours ago, David Mack said:

In the second picture is that very rusty piece actually part of the block? It doesn't look to be quite straight and if it was part of the block you wouldn't be able to assemble the T piece and hoses to the right of it.

 

 

Looking at the large hexagon heads on both T pieces, I wonder if they allow a socket to reach inside to tighten or remove a single fixing bolt for the T piece. If so, there really should be a dowel as well, maybe two, to ensure the T piece casting and presumably a gasket stayed aligned with the block. It is just speculation, so it is probably better to await a Lister expert to give chapter and verse.

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2 hours ago, bizzard said:

I avoid using Jubilee clips if I can. They tend to pinch under the scroll screw and the curved bit underneath it never really conforms properly with curvature of the hose and tend to leak there. Best to use clips which have a perfect all around circular gggrip on the hose.

What do you recommend blizzard just for future reference? There are so many different ones available I never know which ones are best

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41 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

What do you recommend blizzard just for future reference? There are so many different ones available I never know which ones are best

 

He is right, worm drive clips tend to leave a very small section of hose either side of the worm drive housing under less clamping force. This is especially noticeable if you use an oversized clip and tighten is down. It works the other way if you manage to get an undersized clip, or a pair of such clips fixed "nose to tail", but personally I have never had a sealing problem with the correct sized clips. I suppose the horrible spring things they use on cars that need pliers to remove and replace fit better all round, but I have them. A proper sized worm drive clip is best in my view.

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Worm drive hose clips are ok for some applications but if you require a good seal on critical joints you should consider using clamps such as these:-

 

https://www.thehosemaster.co.uk/superclamps-stainless-steel-clamps

 

I am not promoting this particular company to buy from, (do your own research) but with this type of clamp, all round torque and compression can be applied.  They are often much wider than "Jubilee" worm drive clips and therefore just one clip of this type (referred to in the link) is often sufficient as a replacement where previously  two worm drive clips have been used.  They are available made from stainless steel.

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1 hour ago, Rincewind said:

Worm drive hose clips are ok for some applications but if you require a good seal on critical joints you should consider using clamps such as these:-

 

https://www.thehosemaster.co.uk/superclamps-stainless-steel-clamps

 

I am not promoting this particular company to buy from, (do your own research) but with this type of clamp, all round torque and compression can be applied.  They are often much wider than "Jubilee" worm drive clips and therefore just one clip of this type (referred to in the link) is often sufficient as a replacement where previously  two worm drive clips have been used.  They are available made from stainless steel.

That was why I asked as I did try that type of clamp on a difficult to seal skin tank stub and they seemed nothing like as good as 2 of the narrower more flexible worm drive clamps. Maybe because the stub was a bit corroded the narrow ones sealed better. I’m not sure why they didn’t seal as well but I ditched my superclamps and have read of people having similar problems. I now use 2 worm drive clips with the drives at 180 deg  to each other. If the stub is perfectly round etc I can see the wider type being better and kinder on the hose but I was having to use sealant as well. It’s always interesting to hear other people’s experience as diy mechanicing can be a solitary hobby!

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Don't be surprised if the metal stubs on the doors have corroded through. I have replaced several

 

Can't say I get a lot of trouble with Jubilee clips, apart from this horrible ones where the 'thread' on the band is pierced through

 

Richard

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The black hose going off vertically shows definite signs of water having run down the outside of it.

 

Are you sure that the leak is not above this hose?  This would have caused the rusting that you can see lower down.

 

I don't think that you have positively identified where the leak is from.

 

 

The 2 cast tee pieces are bolted to the block with gaskets in between. If you cannot find a leak further up, this whole tees and hoses assembly comes off complete.

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The black hose going off vertically shows definite signs of water having run down the outside of it.

 

Are you sure that the leak is not above this hose?  This would have caused the rusting that you can see lower down.

 

I don't think that you have positively identified where the leak is from.

 

 

The 2 cast tee pieces are bolted to the block with gaskets in between. If you cannot find a leak further up, this whole tees and hoses assembly comes off complete.

Thanks Tracy,

The newer black vertical hose and clip are also a source of leak, but they were dry to the touch yesterday morning,

The only wet area was a dark brown crescent shape area to the left of the single green jubilee clip, if you zoom in slightly on picture 2 you can just make it out and see a rubber type sealant which showed a leak.

I will investigate all of the connections later and run the engine for half an hour to get the water flowing, 

Interesting that the whole section is held on with those bolts and gaskets, obviously with it being painted previously you cannot determine any join.

Thanks again.

I plan to take the air filter off for a good access, it's just a screw on type to look at it, but I tried moving it by hand yesterday,

It wouldn't budge, should I just take a rubber mallet or similar and push a screwdriver  or similar into one of the air holes underneath.

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9 hours ago, RLWP said:

Don't be surprised if the metal stubs on the doors have corroded through. I have replaced several

 

Can't say I get a lot of trouble with Jubilee clips, apart from this horrible ones where the 'thread' on the band is pierced through

 

Richard

 

Thanks Richard, now you say doors I can see them

 

Karen: If you can't shift the air filter by hand, I would try a strap type oil filter wrench or maybe a leather belt and a block of wood. Otherwise, a length of wood with two screws right through it that fit in a pair of holes opposite each other.

3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Looking again I am not sure that the cast bits come off the block but if they don't how did they get the hoses and clips on?

 

Richard says the cast bits are part of side doors, presumably to facilitate cleaning the cooling galleries, so the whole side comes off.

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7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Thanks Richard, now you say doors I can see them

 

Karen: If you can't shift the air filter by hand, I would try a strap type oil filter wrench or maybe a leather belt and a block of wood. Otherwise, a length of wood with two screws right through it that fit in a pair of holes opposite each other.

 

Richard says the cast bits are part of side doors, presumably to facilitate cleaning the cooling galleries, so the whole side comes off.

That makes more sense, so its one larger gasket to make.  Still doesn't explain how the hoses are fitted though, is it like a BMC A series bypass hose job, squash up to fit?  Or take both off?

 

Some of that wiring for the alternator looks a bit precarious.

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

That makes more sense, so its one larger gasket to make.  Still doesn't explain how the hoses are fitted though, is it like a BMC A series bypass hose job, squash up to fit?

 

It looks like two doors to me, so assemble the hose onto the doors, leaving it loose, then fit the doors. A bit like Lister heads and exhaust manifolds.

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There is a door on each barrel giving access to the water space. Fitting the hoses is a pain, the longer on squashes and goes on. The shorter ones on the tee piece require careful juggling. You can't assemble them to the doors, then fit the assembly as there is a nut and stud behind the pipe (!!!). Before you ask, the 'S' shaped hose on the flywheel end is obsolete and unobtainable

 

Don't bother trying to unscrew the 'filter', it will be very firmly stuck. It is easier to take the inlet manifold off. It isn't a filter, it's a noise suppressor - actually it' a pepperpot exhaust serving as an air intake

 

Richard

 

 

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