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Can a sea going dutch barge sail on uk canal network?


legepe

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1 hour ago, Tam & Di said:

The spud pole (the black thing at the front) is higher than the wheelhouse and pretty much restricts you to the Thames, or lower reaches of other east coast rivers.

 

I suspect it might even not pass under Windsor bridge on the Thames. It certainly won't go under Osney bridge at Oxford. 

 

 

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I'd also be wary of a spud pole installation on an old boat. Where it goes through the hull would want a very good looking at inside and out. Bowthruster tubes have been known to rust out and sink boats so this contraption seems to be a similar risk. Needs to be got rid of and hole plated over. 

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Just now, magnetman said:

I'd also be wary of a spud pole installation on an old boat. Where it goes through the hull would want a very good looking at inside and out. Bowthruster tubes have been known to rust out and sink boats so this contraption seems to be a similar risk. Needs to be got rid of and hole plated over. 

 

Off at a tangent, WTF is a spud pole anyway?

 

I bet loadsa people here are wondering!

 

 

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12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

A pin anchor. Vertical pole which drops down into the riverbed to anchor the boat in place. 

 

spudpalen in Dutch.

The telescopic ones are pretty wicked 

 

 

Quite common on dredgers so you may well have seen then on dredgers on the canal network.

 

Howard

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Thanks very much for all your comments by highlighting some very basic issues with this barge, and also helping me realise - Im completely out of my depth!

I will try to learn a bit more about things before making any decision to buy either a sea going or canal worthy boat/barge

All the best to you all and thanks again!

Here is the listing for it if anyone is interested: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165943917387?hash=item26a3073b4b:g:bXEAAOSwPoVj7jMt

Edited by legepe
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I've only seen one or two non commercial boats with spud poles on the thames. Both of them were dutch barges but bigger than this red one.

 

Lots of work platform boats have them. 

 

I am not sure how it works on canals though as it looks like you could damage the canal lining with one of those things. 

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2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I've only seen one or two non commercial boats with spud poles on the thames. Both of them were dutch barges but bigger than this red one.

 

Lots of work platform boats have them. 

 

I am not sure how it works on canals though as it looks like you could damage the canal lining with one of those things. 

 

I assume by "damage" you mean "punch a hole clean through it"  -- do CART really allow these to be used on the canals, as opposed to rivers?

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I think it is forbidden in a byelaw somewhere but the CRT never enforce byelaws. Puddle clay is supposed to be self healing or something like that but it still seems it would be a very Bad Thing to use one of these on the cut. 

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17 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I assume by "damage" you mean "punch a hole clean through it"  -- do CART really allow these to be used on the canals, as opposed to rivers?

 

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I assume by "damage" you mean "punch a hole clean through it"  -- do CART really allow these to be used on the canals, as opposed to rivers?

As been stated, most dredgers use them, but I suspect they have plate feet on the bottom

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Not sure what these type use as nothing visible

 

 

a-canal-dredger-on-the-leeds-liverpool-c

 

There were some older dredgers which had hydraulic "arms which went down in an arc with a large flat foot on the end but I'm not sure canal dredgers have pin anchors. 

Above picture perhaps not actually a dredger to be fair. 

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12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Not sure what these type use as nothing visible

 

 

a-canal-dredger-on-the-leeds-liverpool-c

 

There were some older dredgers which had hydraulic "arms which went down in an arc with a large flat foot on the end but I'm not sure canal dredgers have pin anchors. 

Above picture perhaps not actually a dredger to be fair. 

This was on the Weaver 

image.png.86bdf41b1f89b647b7938611b33e218a.png

 

And the Leek Canal

image.png.e18b8c168319f2438db08bbb2b4f9155.png

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This on the Aire & Calder passing our mooring at Pollington in 2015.

Though I believe the legs just sit on the canal bed and don't puncture it.

 

 

 

CRT_1.png

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11 minutes ago, M_JG said:

This on the Aire & Calder passing our mooring at Pollington in 2015.

Though I believe the legs just sit on the canal bed and don't puncture it.

 

 

 

CRT_1.png

 

There's a big difference between "spuds" with flat load-spreading plates on the bottom that sit on the canal bad and stop dredgers tipping over (like this photo) and telescopic ones like the ones pictured on the Dutch barges which dig deep into the river bed to provide a secure mooring point that the boat can pivot around if the current changes. The purpose is very different, as is the effect on the canal/river bed...

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35 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

There's a big difference between "spuds" with flat load-spreading plates on the bottom that sit on the canal bad and stop dredgers tipping over (like this photo) and telescopic ones like the ones pictured on the Dutch barges which dig deep into the river bed to provide a secure mooring point that the boat can pivot around if the current changes. The purpose is very different, as is the effect on the canal/river bed...

 

Indeed.

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I think that a handful of people bought Dutch ex-working mainenance craft which had them fitted and thought they were useful to counter the possibility of having mooring lines cut by yobbos. Then more recent newcomers thought this was a good idea and commissioned them on new-build barges, and gradually it became a fashion, and now they are not uncommon on barges on the continent. Their use on pleasure craft is only recent, but CEVNI regulations are now catching up and in the latest revision they are effectively treated as anchors which means their use is forbidden on virtually all canals, and any stretches of rivers where anchors are barred. I'm just waiting for the report of someone who's spud became bent when it was in use, which would be an 'interesting' situation.

 

They are probably so uncommon on UK pleasurecraft that there is no specific byelaw against them (yet 😁)

 

Tam

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5 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

I think that a handful of people bought Dutch ex-working mainenance craft which had them fitted and thought they were useful to counter the possibility of having mooring lines cut by yobbos. Then more recent newcomers thought this was a good idea and commissioned them on new-build barges, and gradually it became a fashion, and now they are not uncommon on barges on the continent. Their use on pleasure craft is only recent, but CEVNI regulations are now catching up and in the latest revision they are effectively treated as anchors which means their use is forbidden on virtually all canals, and any stretches of rivers where anchors are barred. I'm just waiting for the report of someone who's spud became bent when it was in use, which would be an 'interesting' situation.

 

They are probably so uncommon on UK pleasurecraft that there is no specific byelaw against them (yet 😁)

 

Tam

I think that happened to a work barge on the Weaver like the one I posted the photo of, may even have been that one.

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A few years ago I spent a good while reading old threads here in an effort to determine whether a boat type existed that could cruise all of the UK wide canals and also be capable of some offshore work in calmish weather. 

 

There are a few big constraints, as has been pointed out.

These include the shallow draft that is needed to cruise many canals. Some boats of 2ft 6 inch draft seem to drag along the bottom in some stretches. 

There are people on here that will know what would be the maximum draft that would work, but I suspect it would be less than 3ft- so that is an important constraint when selecting an offshore capable craft. 

 

Another thing is the air draft. A lot of the canal bridges are quite low. Again I cant remember the maximum air draft on the various canals, but they are generally much lower than you see on typical offshore craft.  

 

I remember finding a 35ft long Dutch-built GRP motorboat that had a shallow enough draft to cruise canals, and it had a radar arch that would fold down, plus folding windscreen etc, and I think it had a low enough air draft that it would have been possible for it cruise most of the wide canals and rivers. 

The beauty of the GRP design is the hull was quite seaworthy with a deep V shape, and it could cruise at 20+ knots, so was capable of making a relatively fast dash across the channel or the Irish Sea even in moderate weathers. 

 

There are some larger Dutch barge designs that are rated as category C and have some degree of offshore capability, but they are large and heavy, and not generally very fast moving, so you might need to wait longer in order to find a suitable weather window to make your offshore crossing. 

 

There are also some smaller dutch motorboat designs, of 30-40ft, with V shaped hulls and reasonably powerful engines, but with some of them you might have to chop off the roof of the wheelhouse and replace it with a fold-down structure.

There are also some Broom boats (and similar designs) that might possibly do a lot of what you want. 

 

I find it a fascinating area to consider, and I've never totally stopped pondering it, but one thing is certain- some significant compromises would be needed to produce a genuine all-round 'go anywhere' boat, and all of the examples above will fall short in one aspect or another- it boils down to where you want to make the compromises. 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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This one is a sea going boat and has a draught of 3ft4 and can fit under all the canal bridges.

 

30ft long and 10ft6 wide.

 

The draught is the limiting factor for canals.

 

IMG-20210812-154850.jpg

 

I can fold down the radar arch and crane arrangement as it is counterbalanced in the engine room with great big coil springs.

 

My baby ;)

 

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40 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

These include the shallow draft that is needed to cruise many canals. Some boats of 2ft 6 inch draft seem to drag along the bottom in some stretches. 

Can't speak for wide boats but there are plenty of flat bottomed narrow boats drawing 3 ft at the stern that get across the whole system. Not saying they never touch the bottom, but rarely is it a big problem. So I imagine a wider boat drawing 3 ft in the middle with a chined or shallow V hull should be fine generally. Biggest issues will be passing other wide boats in narrower sections and coming into the side to moor.

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53 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

There are also some Broom boats (and similar designs) that might possibly do a lot of what you want. 

 

 

There is a 1970s Broom 32 (gorgeous boats) CCing here on the K&A. Been around for years so I think we may surmise it fits ok!

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7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Can't speak for wide boats but there are plenty of flat bottomed narrow boats drawing 3 ft at the stern that get across the whole system. Not saying they never touch the bottom, but rarely is it a big problem. So I imagine a wider boat drawing 3 ft in the middle with a chined or shallow V hull should be fine generally. Biggest issues will be passing other wide boats in narrower sections and coming into the side to moor.

 

Thanks for the clarification David. 

I've seen overplated and heavy boats struggle in some places, in fact I dragged myself on the ashby and elsewhere (and I'm only 2ft draft I think), but the OP is not interested in those sorts of places. Also, the fuel boats must even deeper and they manage to get around. 

So 3ft would be a reasonable max draft to get around most of the wide waterways. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

There is a 1970s Broom 32 (gorgeous boats) CCing here on the K&A. Been around for years so I think we may surmise it fits ok!

 

My first motor boat was a Broom. 15ft Scorpio speedboat with an Evinrude 20. 1987 I was only 13 yars old possibly a bit young to have one's own boat but never mind. Had some good times on that one as it had the fold down seats and could be used for sleeping on.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

There is a 1970s Broom 32 (gorgeous boats) CCing here on the K&A. Been around for years so I think we may surmise it fits ok!

 

Thats why I mentioned those- they look as if they could cross the channel or the Irish sea in calm weather, although personally I would want a decent engine if I did that, and of course that could get very expensive.

 

But all that is a very different nautical beast to the OPs 70ft barge idea. This is why I think some signficant compromises are needed.

 

I watched a youtube video of a yatch where the owners took the mast down, lifted the keel and cruised the french canals. 

Not that I'm imagining we'll be seeing too many yachts with lowered masts cruising the L+L any time soon.

 

 

48 minutes ago, magnetman said:

This one is a sea going boat and has a draught of 3ft4 and can fit under all the canal bridges.

 

30ft long and 10ft6 wide.

 

The draught is the limiting factor for canals.

 

IMG-20210812-154850.jpg

 

I can fold down the radar arch and crane arrangement as it is counterbalanced in the engine room with great big coil springs.

 

My baby ;)

 

 

Not wanting to be a negative nancy in relation to this admirable enterprise, but that wheelhouse does look a tad high (and wide) for some of the canal bridges on the L+L?

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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10 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Thats why I mentioned those- they look as if they could cross the channel or the Irish sea in calm weather, although personally I would want a decent engine if I did that, and of course that could get very expensive.

 

 

Yes I believe they are regarded as very seaworthy, especially the twin engine iterations.

 

 

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