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Can a sea going dutch barge sail on uk canal network?


legepe

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That black thing on the front deck. 

 

Is it a spud leg  / pin anchor? That is not going to fit under low bridges if it is fixed.

 

Looks too large to be a chimney. 

 

Maybe it is something else. 

 

For use on smaller canals that would definitely need to go. I suppose it would be ok on larger northern waterways.

 

As for coastal trips some of the Leeds and Liverpool short boats came down the east coast from the Humber to the Thames. One of these will do the Leeds and Liverpool which is obviously handy and a certain amount of the Southern Grand Union..

 

 

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"Can a sea going dutch barge sail on uk canal network?"

 

Short answer:

No

 

Long answer:

Depends on which barge you mean but most of them, no.

 

Even longer answer:

A very few of them, yes on a very limited number of the UK canals. My main concern is drafts (both air and water) and overall size (length and/or beam) will make cruising a real trial even on the canals where the boat physically fits through the locks. 

 

 

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The red one above also has a large rudder which WILL be a problem if used on smaller canals where you are the only boat such as Grand Union, K&A etc so even with wheelhouse down it will be trouble. 

 

Also 72x14 is rather a convenient size. People have been known to misrepresent size of boats so it would want measuring including the rudder very accurately. 

 

 

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Thanks again for all your replies to this

From everything youve said, I understand now that I would be severely restricted on uk canals! to the point that I would need something different, but having the option of going to sea is very appealing, so maybe I have to do some more research and thinking what and where I will use the boat for????

The other immediate concern I have with this boat is it seems to have been drywalled and plastered both on the ceilings and the walls.. surely, you would not do this on any kind of boat, whether it be sea or inland going? no?

 

Capture3.JPG

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8 hours ago, legepe said:

OK, this will give you a better idea of what Im interested in

Stand corrected, its 72' x 14' & engine is daf 575 120 hp engine 

I am very interested to take her to sea, but would like to have some options to go inland, but at what costs am I going to be restricted?

Capture.JPG

Capture2.JPG

Looks like the wheelhouse is  well elevated and the side deck draining forward which is good. I don't see much drainage off the side decks but there may be some.

 

Looks like a good boat for he Humber, Trent, Ouse and Aire and  Calder .

 

 

 

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It is a nice enough boat but trouble on the smaller wide canals. If one were based up there I think it would be a good plan to get a boat which would do the Leeds to Liverpool canal. 

 

Capture.JPG

 

There are some side deck drains but not especially large. 

 

What type is this ? I'll guess Steilsteven but not sure if this is a general term or a sub type

@Tam & Di

I see it is moored on the Thames at Hurst Park near Hampton Court

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165943917387

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17 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Some of the above is incorrect. The UK canals are split into three, with centre part in the mthe idlands only accepting a beam of 6ft 10 in or so. Therefore, a wider boat will be limited to the norther canals & rivers or the southern ones, with a sea passage or lorry between the two.

 

Pedantic Point. I am intrigued to understand why the myth, started by BW, continues to suggest that the maximum width for all single lock canals is 6ft 10ins. Our former boat was 7ft wide and we managed to negotiate all the Central Midlands canals without any difficulty. The narrowest canal we experienced was the Trent and Mersey, which isn't really Central Midlands, and even then we had a couple of inches spare.

Edited by David Schweizer
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Just now, David Schweizer said:

 

Pedantic Point. I am intrigued to understand why the myth, started by BW, continues to suggest that the maximum width for all single lock canals is 6ft 10ins. 

I wonder if it was a calculation done at some stage related to gradual deterioration and movement of lock sides inwards. 6"10' does seem to have been a standard for quite a while. I wonder why they didn't go up to 11. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I wonder if it was a calculation done at some stage related to gradual deterioration and movement of lock sides inwards. 6"10' does seem to have been a standard for quite a while. I wonder why they didn't go up to 11. 

 

 

 

As far as I can see, it does. It also goes some way to allow for banana shaped boats. I think it would be irresponsible to tell someone who obviously has little knowledge that 7ft beam will go anywhere. Maybe this year, but what about next or the year after?

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23 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

Pedantic Point. I am intrigued to understand why the myth, started by BW, continues to suggest that the maximum width for all single lock canals is 6ft 10ins. Our former boat was 7ft wide and we managed to negotiate all the Central Midlands canals without any difficulty. The narrowest canal we experienced was the Trent and Mersey, which isn't really Central Midlands, and even then we had a couple of inches spare.

 

Pedantic Point. I am intrigued to understand why the myth, started by BW, continues to suggest that the maximum width for all single lock canals is 6ft 10ins. Our former boat was 7ft wide and we managed to negotiate all the Central Midlands canals without any difficulty. The narrowest canal we experienced was the Trent and Mersey, which isn't really Central Midlands, and even then we had a couple of inches spare.

 

 

Wasn't it done to save widening one of the locks at the entrance to the Llangollen, which had subsided inwards slightly to about 6ft 10in?

 

Change the stated max width of narrowboats instead of spending £1m fixing the lock? 

 

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I think the likely direct explanation for the 6' 10" standard for leisure narrowboats is that it is the narrowest width to be maintained on any part of the connected network as enshrined in law by the 1968 Transport Act.

 

The canal concerned is the Coventry between Coventry basin and Fazeley Junction. This is somewhat surprising because at the time it still carried commercial traffic using ex-GUCCCo boats. 

 

Today, CRT maintain the Coventry to 7' 0" although the Old Union (Norton to Foxton) and the Llangollen were and are still 6' 11". The Huddersfield narrow also has a limit of 6' 10" but is outwith the 1968 act.

 

The only other place on the entire network that has a width limit of less than 7' 0" is Froghall tunnel. It's therefore safe to conclude that the 6' 10" myth for all narrow locks only continues in people's heads.

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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Nice boat but too tall, too wide, too long probably too deep and not seagoing either in any real sense of the word. UK canals are best tackled in something no more than 72` x 7 and not drawing more than 2`6" Even the wide canals would be such hard work that you would wish you hadn't bothered. I sometimes look at adverts for the smallest Dutch boats just for something different than narrowboat clones and even the smallest, Westlanders and Kagenaars which started life as punts are very rarely below 8` wide and our own boat at 11` 4" wide by a bit over 32`  drawing about 2` 6" with a collapsible wheelhouse was hard work up the GU and only just possible to get to Guildford on the Wey and above Oxford on the Thames because of headroom

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43 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Today, CRT maintain the Coventry to 7' 0" although the Old Union (Norton to Foxton) and the Llangollen were and are still 6' 11". The Huddersfield narrow also has a limit of 6' 10" but is outwith the 1968 act.

 

The only other place on the entire network that has a width limit of less than 7' 0" is Froghall tunnel. It's therefore safe to conclude that the 6' 10" myth for all narrow locks only continues in people's heads.

 

The Coventry, Old Union and Llangollen are regularly used by ex working boats built to an overall width of 7ft 1/2 in. The only place I have ever got stuck for width in a Big Woolwich was Stret Lock on the Chesterfield, which was a known pinch point with a stated width of 6 ft 10 1/2 in. It has since been widened.

I have also been through Froghall Tunnel on a different ex working boat, although I don't know how wide that was.

As far as I am aware the 6ft 10 thing is now a complete myth, and 7 ft (and a little wider) boats can now navigate almost the entire system (as long as you don't have side fenders down when passing through locks).

Edited by David Mack
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2 hours ago, legepe said:

Thanks again for all your replies to this

 

From everything youve said, I understand now that I would be severely restricted on uk canals! to the point that I would need something different, but having the option of going to sea is very appealing, so maybe I have to do some more research and thinking what and where I will use the boat for????

 

The other immediate concern I have with this boat is it seems to have been drywalled and plastered both on the ceilings and the walls.. surely, you would not do this on any kind of boat, whether it be sea or inland going? no?

 

 

Capture3.JPG

Its probably fitted out to spend its life moored up and used as a house.

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9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The Coventry, Old Union and Llangollen are regularly used by ex working boats built to an overall width of 7ft 1/2 in. The only place I have ever got stuck for width in a Big Woolwich was Stret Lock on the Chesterfield, which was a known pinch point with a stated width of 6 ft 10 1/2 in. It has since been widened.

I have also been through Froghall Tunnel on a different ex working boat, although I don't know how wide that was.

As far as I am aware the 6ft 10 thing is now a complete myth, and 7 ft (and a little wider) boats can now navigate almost the entire system (as long as you don't have side fenders down when passing through locks).

 

I thought GUCCCo boats were 7' 1/4" rather than 1/2". Either way I don't think the legal requirements do fractions of inches and GU boats were considered to be 7' 0" wide judging by the stated dimensions in Fraenkel.

 

Part of the reason for my other thread is that we all know that the published dimensions are not critically limiting values. It is though very instructive to know what the other party are obliged to do and what they are not.

 

I omitted the Chesterfield from my earlier list in error. Like the Huddersfield narrow it is outwith the 1968 act beyond Worksop and officially maintained to a minimum of 6' 10".

 

Looking at the detail published by CRT the 6' 8" limit at Froghall is in combination with a certain headroom. It does state that 7' beam is passable. I think CRT get very muddled with the requirements for combined width and headroom.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Some of the above is incorrect. The UK canals are split into three, with the centre part in the midlands only accepting a beam of 6ft 10 in or so. Therefore, a wider boat will be limited to the norther canals & rivers or the southern ones, with a sea passage or lorry between the two.

at 72ft long it would rule out some canals in the north.  The OP also does not describe draught it might be too deep below the waterline for UK canals.  The fixed wheelhouse is a no-go too as has been suggested.

 

I would say all the potential issues rule such a boat out particularly as the OP asked if it would be able to be used to navigate most of the UK canals as navigation with it would

be very restricted at least.

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13 hours ago, legepe said:

Wow and wow again..! thanks so much for all of your replies!!!

I am not a boater of any sort... but want to learn something about it! any ideas if I was to have a 72' x 13' sea going barge, were would I be able to go with it?

I am based in the north east of the uk, close to the coast (River Humber) to be precise

I am very much attracted to the thought of taking it to sea, or around the coast lines, but I dont want to be totally restricted by not being able to take it inland

Is there a boat that could be both sea worthy and inland  questions at the same time? or is this simply not possible?

I do want something quite big as well, so am I simply asking too much :(Q

I think you would be best advised to hire a boat with an instructor who will help you to learn about boat handling.

If that works maybe hire a small narrowboat with an experienced friend for a week.

If that works go on a motor sailing course on the Solent where you will have to avoid shipping and do a bit of pilotage.

Do a lot of chartwork if you intend to stray off the canals 

If you still want a challenge please take a few exams to a professional level.

If you have plenty of time, money and determination all things are possible, but not necessarily wise.

The Humber and the Aire and Calder are commercial waterways, the Trent is not suitable for complete novices. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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13 hours ago, legepe said:

I am not a boater of any sort... but want to learn something about it! any ideas if I was to have a 72' x 13' sea going barge, were would I be able to go with it?

I am based in the north east of the uk, close to the coast (River Humber) to be precise

I am very much attracted to the thought of taking it to sea, or around the coast lines, but I dont want to be totally restricted by not being able to take it inland

 

 

You certainly do not want to be taking any sort of boat out to sea until you understand about the Sea, tides, weather, currents, navigation etc etc.

 

Even having many years on the canals would not give you sufficient knowledge to 'go to sea'. You need to decide if you want to go to sea and do at least the basic qualifications (both theory and practical) so as not to be too much of a risk to either yourself or others.

 

The Humber is potentially a very dangerous stretch of waters with huge commercial ships coming and going as well as very strong (fast) tides.

We had our Category A (Ocean rated) boat based in Hull Marina for several years.

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, legepe said:

Wow and wow again..! thanks so much for all of your replies!!!

I am not a boater of any sort... but want to learn something about it! any ideas if I was to have a 72' x 13' sea going barge, were would I be able to go with it?

I am based in the north east of the uk, close to the coast (River Humber) to be precise

I am very much attracted to the thought of taking it to sea, or around the coast lines, but I dont want to be totally restricted by not being able to take it inland

Is there a boat that could be both sea worthy and inland worthy at the same time? or is this simply not possible?

I do want something quite big as well, so am I simply asking too much :(

 

 

The requirements of inland boats and sea-going boats are very, very different, but there are a few that sort of meet in the middle (and will be a bit of a compromise; they won't be best of breed in either scenario, but may get you through). The Peter Nichols Hufflers come to mind - they can go pretty much anywhere and do most things with a good degree of competence. They won't get you on a narrow canal (as above) but should be okay on the wider ones (the manufacturer is based in Braunston). Peter Nichols also make some sturdy sea-going barges, as well as narrow-boats and inland boats.

 

Also mentioned above, the sea is a big, dangerous and rightly scary place, but every round-the-world-yachtsman was a beginner once. Don't be afraid to learn, but don't think you can just hop into a boat and point it at the horizon (at least not if you're planning on coming back...)

 

Maybe also try to watch "all at sea" with Timothy and Shane Spall on their sea-going barge Princess Matilda. Again, not a (UK) canal boat, but she is very at home on bigger rivers (I have seen her on the Thames a few times). Also, maybe also consider the inland waterways of mainland Europe which tend to be designed for bigger traffic than ours.

 

One final also - big is tempting, small is better. A boating lifestyle is generally about learning to make do with the least you can get away with, not trying to replicate a luxurious land-based lifestyle. Many 30-35' yachts spend years circumnavigating the globe...

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Legepe said:

"The other immediate concern I have with this boat is it seems to have been drywalled and plastered both on the ceilings and the walls.. surely, you would not do this on any kind of boat, whether it be sea or inland going? no?" 

 

No.  I would not expect any sort of drywall and plaster arrangement to last well in any sort of seaway, especially if pounding,  or whilst taking the sorts of knocks and bumps  that are an inevitable part of canal and river boating.  The fit out is clearly intended for an immobile usage.  IF that is the case for things internal, what might the real state of the engine be?

 

N

 

 

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17 hours ago, legepe said:

Wow and wow again..! thanks so much for all of your replies!!!

I am not a boater of any sort... but want to learn something about it! any ideas if I was to have a 72' x 13' sea going barge, were would I be able to go with it?

I am based in the north east of the uk, close to the coast (River Humber) to be precise

I am very much attracted to the thought of taking it to sea, or around the coast lines, but I dont want to be totally restricted by not being able to take it inland

Is there a boat that could be both sea worthy and inland worthy at the same time? or is this simply not possible?

I do want something quite big as well, so am I simply asking too much :(

Yes, I met a Lloyds Register consultant, he had a grp sailing yacht which he had sailed singlehanded from Europe to the  Humber on to the Aire And Calder.

This type of experience is rare : he was able to diagnose a disabled vessel I had retrieved from a bush and assisted to a dock. 

 

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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3 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

When we went down the Southern Stratford in the 1970's when it was still being run by the  NT, there was a notice when you joined it with a list of boats that were too wide to pass a certain lock. 

 

Ah yes, I remember it well, but there was no warning sign in 1968 when we took Pisces down the Lower Stratford, and got firmly stuck in one of the Lapworth locks. The water went down, but the boat stayed suspended in mid air, so we re-filled the lock, but the boat stayed firmly wedged. Strenuous efforts were deployed to release the boat, including tightening the hull chains, applying oil along the rubbing strakes, and the volunteer Lock Keeper's Land Rover working hard. All efforts failed to achieve anything until a large party of walkers arrived. With ropes attached to the rear dollies, and about forty people in two groups on both sides of the canal, and the Land Rover and boat engines both running hard, the boat suddenly popped out of the lock like a champagne bottle cork.  Once clear of the lock, we had to reverse through numerous lock back to the junction before we could continue our revised journey.   The Southern Stratford had not been re-opened very long and, having read the above post, I now wonder whether our experience led to the erection of the warning sign.

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17 hours ago, Graham Davis said:

And the Sharpness.

yes I cant see any reason why it wouldn't get to Stourport, but Im sure no further than Tewkesbury on the Warwickshire Avon for a few yards from the Avon lock. 

 

I imagine it could get up the Bristol Avon from Bristol/ Avonmouth  to Bath as well, but not up the locks at Bath. 

 

As for its sea worthiness, I have no idea. 

 

 

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