The National Bargee Travellers Association has slammed plans to raise licence fees on canals like the Kennet and Avon

[magnetman]

It reads as if the protected assets (presumably this means canals) are only protected while there is a government grant in place. 

 

Does this mean that if and when the grant is removed the obligation to protect the assets no longer exists? 

 

 

[Orwellian]

12 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Indeed it does 

C&RT are trustees (guardians) not  owners .

The assertion I originally questioned was that the CRT canals were 'owned by the people'. They are not as they were transferred 'out of public ownership' as it states in the document I provided a copy of.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Orwellian said:

The assertion I originally questioned was that the CRT canals were 'owned by the people'. They are not as they were transferred 'out of public ownership' as it states in the document I provided a copy of.

So who actually owns them?

[magnetman]

Canal and River Trading CIC?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08069602

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Is this well known ? 

 

Yes - the information is in the public domain and is registered at companies house.

Anyone that wanted to know it had the oppoprtunity to read it.

 

(Along with a long list of what C&RT can, and cannot, do, the criteria for retaining the grant etc etc etc)

Edited March 18, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

27 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Indeed it does 

C&RT are trustees (guardians) not  owners .

Exactly still owned by the state

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by peterboat

[magnetman]

Bywater, Dainty, Deards and Mills are the surnames of active directors..

 

 

[Momac]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Exactly still owned by the state

Yes . Owned  by the nation forever.

 

Similarly National Trust don't own property .

 

So perhaps C&RT are not permitted to sell off or mortgage property in their care ?. But they can rent it out (as do national trust with houses in their care).

 

 

.

[magnetman]

One would need to see what administrative powers the Trustees have before coming to the conclusion that they can not dispose of assets.

 

There must be more detail to all this but perhaps as it has been transferred out of public ownership that detail is not available to the public. 

 

 

It seems reasonably interesting that Canal and River Trading CIC have 4 directors and £40 million of assets. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

There must be more detail to all this but perhaps as it has been transferred out of public ownership that detail is not available to the public. 

 

Yes it is.

 

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

One would need to see what administrative powers the Trustees have before coming to the conclusion that they can not dispose of assets.

 

 

Yes they can but some things need the approval of the B member.

 

28.1 There shall be two classes of Members, as follows:

 

28.1.1 “A Members” shall be those individuals who serve on the Council, appointed in accordance with Article 29 and the Rules, and collectively the A Members shall be known as the Council.

 

28.1.2 The “B Member” who shall be the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs;

Edited March 18, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes it is.

 

 

Yes they can but some things need the approval of the B member.

 

28.1 There shall be two classes of Members, as follows:

 

28.1.1 “A Members” shall be those individuals who serve on the Council, appointed in accordance with Article 29 and the Rules, and collectively the A Members shall be known as the Council.

 

28.1.2 The “B Member” who shall be the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs;

So the state owns it?

[magnetman]

I'm no expert on this but it looks like it belongs to a CIC who need sec of state approval to do anything major. 

 

Maybe it does belong to the public but this is not my impression from the given information.

 

Someone who actually knows about all this sort of thing would be really handy to get rid of any assumptions which may pop up. 

[Orwellian]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

So the state owns it?

No it doesn't. Read the following carefully. I've highlighted a section to assist

[Momac]

3 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

No it doesn't. Read the following carefully. I've highlighted a section to assist

C&RT hold the canals in trust for the nation which is not the same as owning the canals.

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

No it doesn't. Read the following carefully. I've highlighted a section to assist

They are trustees not owners 

[Orwellian]

So you both now accept that the state or the 'public' do not own them?

[peterboat]

Just now, Orwellian said:

So you both now accept that the state or the 'public' do not own them?

No CRT are trustees not the owners, the state owns them

[Paul C]

They are both trustees and ultimate owners. There is a caveat on the ownership that they need DEFRA's permission to do anything significant, the details of which are too boring to research.

 

It doesn't actually matter who ultimately owns them, because what matters is how the trustee/navigation authority runs it. 

 

If anyone can give a reasonable scenario where ownership by either public or trustee would make a difference, let us know.

[Orwellian]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

No CRT are trustees not the owners, the state owns them

From the Law Society website.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

One would need to see what administrative powers the Trustees have before coming to the conclusion that they can not dispose of assets.

 

There must be more detail to all this but perhaps as it has been transferred out of public ownership that detail is not available to the public. 

 

 

It seems reasonably interesting that Canal and River Trading CIC have 4 directors and £40 million of assets. 

 

 

£40 Million seems like a low number

£1000Million is more like it 

 

[magnetman]

The £40m is for Canal and River Trading CIC.

 

I was not sure how to interpret the earlier piece of information but to me it reads as they are the owners of the protected assets which I presume means the "track" ie locks and canals.

 

 

 

So what is "the grant agreement" which provides for protection of the protected assets? Is this a grant from the CRT to the CRT CIC or is it the government grant from DEFRA?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08069602/filing-history

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by magnetman

[Orwellian]

Sorry I've had enough. There's something on the tele that has just become compulsive viewing.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

Sorry I've had enough. There's something on the tele that has just become compulsive viewing.

Yes, but are the flames red or yellow? 😉

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I was not sure how to interpret the earlier piece of information but to me it reads as they are the owners of the protected assets which I presume means the "track" ie locks and canals.

 

 

 

Rather than speculating it really would be worth your while to read the documents as they list in great detail what the 'protected assest' are.

[magnetman]

Right you are. You obviously don't realise why I questioned it but never mind.