What is the buying process when purchasing via a private seller

[Niki Russell]

I am looking to purchase my first narrowboat, and am ready to make an offer. It is a private seller rather than broker, so I am currently unsure how to securely complete the transaction (exchange of payment / paperwork). Would appreciate any feedback on this from those with greater experience and knowledge.

 

If my offer is accepted I would like to have a survey done on the boat, as 1. the boat is on the older end of the spectrum, and 2. its my first narrowboat purchase so don't feel I have the knowledge to go ahead without survey.

 

Prior to survey should I pay a deposit, and if so I assume it should be clearly outlined the terms of return of deposit (in relation to survey). Also, should the deposit go to the seller or held be an intermediary (?) to ensure the terms are met by both parties. If the survey shows nothing not already known then I would intend to complete purchase.

 

What is the best way to then securely transfer payment (again is an intermediary helpful), and should the exchange of payment and the bill of sale / the boat itself happen simultaneously? If so how is that achieved?

 

Thanks for your time. 

 

Niki

[Adam]

Hello and welcome, to give context what is the age,/value of the boa?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Niki Russell said:

I am looking to purchase my first narrowboat, and am ready to make an offer. It is a private seller rather than broker, so I am currently unsure how to securely complete the transaction (exchange of payment / paperwork). Would appreciate any feedback on this from those with greater experience and knowledge.

 

It isn't secure, you have to take your chances or don't buy a boat. Use your spidey senses to assess the reliability and personality of the seller and 'take a view', as they say in the business world. Check them out. Look at the sheaf of paperwork any honest seller of a boat will have shown you. Note their name and address. Big Clue: Look up the house/address on the Land Registry website and see who it says owns it. Lots of other ideas in many previous threads here on this subject. Have a search! 

 

 

 

 

[enigmatic]

If you're making an offer subject to survey, I'd ask if arranging and paying for the survey is enough for the owner to take it off the market. That indicates you're serious (survey plus dry dock will cost you around £1000 total) which is all the deposit is supposed to do.

 

Of course, they can say no, just like they can say no to your offer or change their mind about selling the boat

 

And get something simple in writing stating the price you've agreed subject to survey and when and where the survey will take place, as it's also important he turns up with the boat!

 

In theory an escrow service could hold a deposit, but whether anyone would actually go for that and whether it'd be worth it I don't know

 

 

42 minutes ago, MtB said:

Note their name and address. Big Clue: Look up the house/address on the Land Registry website and see who it says owns it. 

That won't work if buying from a continuous cruiser, or a renter...

 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by enigmatic
fixed

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

 

That won't work if selling to a continuous cruiser, or a renter...

 

 

Que??

[enigmatic]

*buying from

[Niki Russell]

1 hour ago, Adam said:

Hello and welcome, to give context what is the age,/value of the boa?

I don't know exact age, but over 25 years. Value: £35-40K. It was out of water a couple of years ago - had survey done, which highlighted nothing significantly wrong with it. And it generally looks like it has been looked after.

 

[Niki Russell]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

It isn't secure, you have to take your chances or don't buy a boat. Use your spidey senses to assess the reliability and personality of the seller and 'take a view', as they say in the business world. Check them out. Look at the sheaf of paperwork any honest seller of a boat will have shown you. Note their name and address. Big Clue: Look up the house/address on the Land Registry website and see who it says owns it. Lots of other ideas in many previous threads here on this subject. Have a search! 

 

 

The person selling lives aboard, so they don't have a separate address. I like the person - based on my limited experience - I have met them online and then on the boat, so I don't really feel like that is a huge deal of context. I expect that the most likely scenario is that they are perfectly reliable / trustworthy (I have no reason to doubt that) - it just seems like a lot of money to hand over on minimal contact and/or security. I would imagine that is quite a common concern (at least for a first-time buyer) and that the process could benefit from a simple mechanism to ensure security for both parties until the exchange takes place - but perhaps others feel it works perfectly well as it is (as noted, I'm new to the buying process).

[Niki Russell]

42 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

If you're making an offer subject to survey, I'd ask if arranging and paying for the survey is enough for the owner to take it off the market. That indicates you're serious (survey plus dry dock will cost you around £1000 total) which is all the deposit is supposed to do.

 

Of course, they can say no, just like they can say no to your offer or change their mind about selling the boat

 

And get something simple in writing stating the price you've agreed subject to survey and when and where the survey will take place, as it's also important he turns up with the boat!

 

In theory an escrow service could hold a deposit, but whether anyone would actually go for that and whether it'd be worth it I don't know

 

 

That won't work if buying from a continuous cruiser, or a renter...

 

 

Thanks for your comments, yes wasn't sure how common an escrow service is in this context / within the UK. And yes the seller is living on boat.

[Paul C]

Of course, it is sensible to put "subject to survey" on the agreement. BUT you need to negotiate what it actually means, because a survey is bound to find something or other not perfect with the boat, then what? If its £500 of stuff, the seller could say "the boat's in great condition, those are minor things due to the age of boat and already reflected in the price". But at some stage, you're going to want the ability to re-negotiate the price and/or pull out completely, possibly with a deposit refund if its significantly poorer than as described. Also it is normal for a survey NOT to put a price on what it would cost to fix the items it finds.

 

And of course, surveyors miss things, or overstate things too, they are far from perfect (but handy for a newbie).

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

Of course, it is sensible to put "subject to survey" on the agreement. BUT you need to negotiate what it actually means, because a survey is bound to find something or other not perfect with the boat, then what? If its £500 of stuff, the seller could say "the boat's in great condition, those are minor things due to the age of boat and already reflected in the price". But at some stage, you're going to want the ability to re-negotiate the price and/or pull out completely, possibly with a deposit refund if its significantly poorer than as described. Also it is normal for a survey NOT to put a price on what it would cost to fix the items it finds.

 

And of course, surveyors miss things, or overstate things too, they are far from perfect (but handy for a newbie).

 

The 'normal' T&Cs in a sales contract would say that the price can be re-negotiated if during the survey faults amounting to X% (normally 10% of the purchase price) to rectify are identified, and, if the seller refuses to re-negotiate then the buyer can pull-out with a refund of the deposit.

 

If the cost to repair the vessel is less than 10% of the sales price, and the seller refuses to negotiate further then the buyer loses their deposit if they pull-out, or they buy it at the agreed price knowing that there are identified faults.

 

Yoy will need to ensure that any contract you agree to is written by someone with boat sales experience, or, use the standard BMF or RYA pro-forma contracts.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

So as the OP can now see, wanting a survey massively complicates the deal, and can easily scare off seller. Or make them feel minded to accept a later offer of the same price from someone not wanting a survey. This is especially likely to happen with a boat "at the older end of the scale" I'd suggest, as the price is likely quite low so another buyer might simply not consider there is that large an amount of money at risk. 

 

When no survey is required the process is really simple. At its simplest, you hand over a wad of cash, they hand you a receipt and the boat. More practically you'll make a substantial bank transfer of say £5k or £10k to demonstrate good faith as you strike the deal, then set about transferring the balance over the next day or three as banks often have a transfer limit of £10k a day. Well mine does anyway, or did last time I bought a boat. In the interim the seller moves all their stuff off ready to hand over on the day of the final transfer. You can visit on the pretext of checking something or other if you wish, to satisfy yourself the emptying out of the boat of personal possessions really is under way. 

 

As your seller is a liveaboard, have they somewhere else to live? Is it actually practical for them to sell? Or are they likely to say "Its a deal! Now we just need to find another boat to buy then we can sell it to you..."

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by MtB
Clarify a point.

[system 4-50]

Take a video which clearly shows the boat and the seller and yourself and records a discussion of the terms of the deal including the date of the transaction.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, Niki Russell said:

I don't know exact age, but over 25 years. Value: £35-40K. It was out of water a couple of years ago - had survey done, which highlighted nothing significantly wrong with it. And it generally looks like it has been looked after.

 

 

If you intend to insure the boat "fully comprehensive" then you will be required by your insurance company to have a survey confirming that it is insurable, and you will also be required to have surveys on a regular basis (it could be every 4 or 5 or 10 years depending on your insurers).

But you can of course just insure it 3rd party (which is sufficient to get your boat licence) but, if it sinks, catched fire etc then you can lose everything.

 

Just a thought - you are aware that like a car there are three things you must have to use your boat (assuming you are looking at being on C&RT waters)

 

1) A licence

2) A BSS (Boat safety scheme certificate) like an MOT

3) A minimum of 3rd part insurance

 

To get the licence you must have No2 & No3 and pay a wodge of cash, and either declare you have a home mooring or that you will CC (Continually cruise) and comply with the requirements to CC.

 

Are you looking at being on a  mooring or CCing ?

[Bee]

This is not easy. If it is not the sellers though who else is likely to own it? Finance company? Unlikely unless it is only a few years old,. Maybe stolen? Stolen boats are usually found pretty quickly.  Maybe the sellers partner still owns half of it? that is possible.  Is it suspiciously cheap just to get a quick sale? Has the sellers got any photos of him /her and the boat going back a few years? Does the seller seem to know anything at all about boats, how much the licence is for the boat, which end is which and so on. In the end you do have to ask questions and keep your fingers crossed. As for surveys you do need to get a hull survey done. An old survey is not reliable, 25 years is getting on a bit and a lot can happen in a short time unknown to the seller.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

As for surveys you do need to get a hull survey done.

 

I dispute this. 

 

Yes it is good advice to get a hull survey done in order to get comp insurance from most insurers, but if the OP is happy with 3rd party there is no particular need.

 

I've bought all manner of boats and never had a hull survey done as I like to take my own risks and being willing to buy without survey puts you into a far stronger negotiating position. 

 

 

[Niki Russell]

6 hours ago, Paul C said:

Of course, it is sensible to put "subject to survey" on the agreement. BUT you need to negotiate what it actually means, because a survey is bound to find something or other not perfect with the boat, then what? If its £500 of stuff, the seller could say "the boat's in great condition, those are minor things due to the age of boat and already reflected in the price". But at some stage, you're going to want the ability to re-negotiate the price and/or pull out completely, possibly with a deposit refund if its significantly poorer than as described. Also it is normal for a survey NOT to put a price on what it would cost to fix the items it finds.

 

And of course, surveyors miss things, or overstate things too, they are far from perfect (but handy for a newbie).

Yes of course, I'm only really concerned about something significant (several thousand pounds) that I'm not aware of. If taken out of water - and a surveyor looks at it, and also I can look at it, then it just provides a degree more certainty that I'm not going to immediately be hit by an extra sizeable bill.

[Niki Russell]

Thanks for people's comments. I will proceed based on these and additional research.

[LadyG]

21 hours ago, Niki Russell said:

 

The person selling lives aboard, so they don't have a separate address. I like the person - based on my limited experience - I have met them online and then on the boat, so I don't really feel like that is a huge deal of context. I expect that the most likely scenario is that they are perfectly reliable / trustworthy (I have no reason to doubt that) - it just seems like a lot of money to hand over on minimal contact and/or security. I would imagine that is quite a common concern (at least for a first-time buyer) and that the process could benefit from a simple mechanism to ensure security for both parties until the exchange takes place - but perhaps others feel it works perfectly well as it is (as noted, I'm new to the buying process).

Don't hand over the balance until you have the Bill of Sale signed. When I bought my boat the seller nominated an agent who was in the country and who I met, she knew the vendor and I had his name and address, plus hers, you can ask for these details and if they won't give them to you, just move on.

People have no reason to hide name and address, passport or driving licence. They may prefer not to give you these details. They are going to have to give you their bank account details, might as well be sooner. 

I wrote a simple contract for the deposit, which was to be first payment subject to ...... Blah blah. The contract was signed by myself and the vendor.

The vendor can nominate a solicitor to do this if he has no other agent.

It's your money, your risk, just explain you want to minimise risk.

The first thing I did was ask for the original Bill of Sale, and this was forthcoming or I would not have gone any further.

One boat I did not view was offered through a broker, I made two phone calls,  I think the boat was subject to debt, the vendor did not want me to pay the broker either. Very fishy. I told the broker about this but the boat was stil for sale on his site. So don't think a broker is in a better position to determine who owns what, after all he has nothing to lose.

Use the RYA website Bill of Sale. You must make sure the boat is wholly owned by the vendor, not him and his wife for example. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by LadyG

[Arthur Marshall]

If the boat is 25 years old, it may need replating, depending on how often it's been out of the water and blacked. The owner may have receipts for this  or you have to decide whether to take their word.  If it hasn't been replated, it may need some work doing fairly soon, so bear that in mind as an expense looming on the horizon. Also bear in mind a surveyor is as likely to miss a thin hull as to find it, and will have no liability for telling you stuff that turns out to be inaccurate. I took a knowledgeable friend along for advice instead. Whether you need comprehensive insurance is debatable, I've only had 3rd party for 30 years, including when I lived on board.

The comment above about jointly owned boats is important - many people move on to boats when marriages break up and ownership can be in dispute.

In the end it comes down to trust in the seller to tell you the truth. If they have told you about some problems there have been, they're more likely to be reliable - all boats have glitches, mostly unimportant or fixable. My seller told me about the wasps nest in the shower and the nonworking water heater - the shower was fine once we got the wasps out and the water heater actually worked after all!

In the end, buying a boat is always a bit of a gamble. You need a contingency fund and a list of phone numbers. People have mixed views about RCR, but at least being a member means that you can always get an engineer for an opinion, even if some of them are pretty useless (some of them aren't!).

[AllanD]

When I SOLD my boat privately, the buyer and myself agreed to a price subject to survey. The buyer arranged for the survey to be carried out by a surveyor chosen by himself and who reported the findings to the buyer. 

There were no issues raised and we agreed to price. 

It was a coincidence that we had the same banking group and a transfer was made. 

Hope this helps. 

[MtB]

11 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If the boat is 25 years old, it may need replating

 

Off at a tangent but "needs replating" is so often stated as if it were a solid fact when it is actually a matter of opinion. 

 

Unless the bilge pump is running due to actual perforations letting in water, it is more a case of 'nice to have' than essential. 

 

Also, re-plating is not often done on narrowboats. Over-plating is more common as it is so much cheaper. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by MtB

[Niki Russell]

Looking at taking boat out of water for survey. Aware of rough costs of getting it out of water and the survey itself. 

 

However, I wondered if the survey will do any damage to the boat hull (in terms of scraping back) and what repair would be required after survey? i.e. can you repair small sections or does doing the survey then require a fuller repaint of the hull?

 

I'll be speaking to surveyors in next day or two, so assume they'll advise on options - but interested to hear your thoughts based on past experience to inform that conversation.

[ditchcrawler]

15 minutes ago, Niki Russell said:

Looking at taking boat out of water for survey. Aware of rough costs of getting it out of water and the survey itself. 

 

However, I wondered if the survey will do any damage to the boat hull (in terms of scraping back) and what repair would be required after survey? i.e. can you repair small sections or does doing the survey then require a fuller repaint of the hull?

 

I'll be speaking to surveyors in next day or two, so assume they'll advise on options - but interested to hear your thoughts based on past experience to inform that conversation.

Why not time it to coincide with your blacking 

[Paul C]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Why not time it to coincide with your blacking 

 

Because its not your boat.....you have a survey before you buy it......and (I hope) do blacking once you own it.