Northern Canals

[Captain Pegg]

14 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

 

We can safely ignore PD's dimmension post as crt are notoriously conservative about their published dimensions

 

 

 

 

It would probably help to take them as being correct, they are certainly described with a level of precision. If CRT wanted to be cautious wouldn't it be more likely they'd describe the dimensions as 60' x 17'?

 

Consider the size of lock chamber required to accommodate a boat of 61' 8" x 17' 1". The distance between the gates would have to be a minimum of 61' 8" + (17' 1"/2) which is 70' 2.5". If it wasn't then the bottom gates couldn't be closed behind or opened in front of every craft complying with the maximum dimensions. 

 

Then you start to understand why a 70' craft may fit through such a lock by any one or more of a number of combinations of techniques such as lying at angle, oversailing the cill with the bow, entering through one open gate and being pushed in behind the other to allow the open gate to close and so on. 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Then you start to understand why a 70' craft may fit through the lock by any one or more of a number of combinations of techniques such as lying at angle, oversailing the cill with the bow, entering through one open gate and being pushed in behind the other to allow the open gate to close and so on. 

 

But there are some commenting in this thread that presumably have neither the knowledge or experience to know what can actually be done.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

It would probably help to take them as being correct, they are certainly described with a level of precision. If CRT wanted to be cautious wouldn't it be more likely they'd describe the dimensions as 60' x 17'?

 

Consider the size of lock chamber required to accommodate a boat of 61' 8" x 17' 1". The distance between the gates would have to be a minimum of 61' 8" + (17' 1"/2) which is 70' 2.5". If it wasn't then the bottom gates couldn't be closed behind or opened in front of every craft complying with the maximum dimensions. 

 

Then you start to understand why a 70' craft may fit through such a lock by any one or more of a number of combinations of techniques such as lying at angle, oversailing the cill with the bow, entering through one open gate and being pushed in behind the other to allow the open gate to close and so on. 

 

 

Indeed Tim did explain how he did it once. I think from memory he was aided by the fact the gates on that particular lock operate independently side to side. But he will remember the specifics.

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But there are some commenting in this thread that presumably have neither the knowledge or experience to know what can actually be done.

 

Exactly this.

 

Perhaps not for the inexperienced to attempt but given Tims extensive experience, including professional boat skippering much easier to achieve.

[PD1964]

27 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

Indeed Tim did explain how he did it once. I think from memory he was aided by the fact the gates on that particular lock operate independently side to side. But he will remember the specifics.

 

Exactly this.

 

Perhaps not for the inexperienced to attempt but given Tims extensive experience, including professional boat skippering much easier to achieve.

 I can’t remember if you can still operate the gates independently, since they fitted the new lock gates, as I know one of the delays was in fitting the new electric console operating system, every time I have come through recently there’s always been a volunteer on and both gates have been opened when in use and I’m sure when I’ve opened them for people they came in with both gates open, minds gone blank. Will find out next weekend when I go through. Must be one of the best manned locks around,

Edited March 4, 2023 by PD1964

[Captain Pegg]

53 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But there are some commenting in this thread that presumably have neither the knowledge or experience to know what can actually be done.

 

I will confess I've never taken a boat through Thorne lock, hence I didn't reference it directly. Nonetheless I've taken oversized boats through other locks on the system and it struck me that the published craft dimensions do not absolutely preclude the passage of a 70' boat through the lock; plus given one forum member says they've done it the obvious conclusion is that it is possible.

 

Of course it doesn't mean every 70' boat will fit, and as has been pointed out it's not a lot of fun going boating if you have to fight with every lock. The odd one is fun though.

[mrsmelly]

Just now, Captain Pegg said:

 

I will confess I've never taken a boat through Thorne lock, hence I didn't reference it directly. Nonetheless I've taken oversized boats through other locks on the system and it struck me that the published craft dimensions do not absolutely preclude the passage of a 70' boat through the lock; plus given one forum member says they've done it the obvious conclusion is that it is possible.

 

Of course it doesn't mean every 70' boat will fit, and as has been pointed out it's not a lot of fun going boating if you have to fight with every lock. The odd one is fun though.

It must also be pointed out that much depends on just how long my 70 foot boat was??? I have never measured any of my boats. 2 points relative to my passage of the lock

1 The boat built as new by Steve Hudson was 70 foot, we touched both ends of the lock, one or so inches longer and we would have had to back out so indeed there will be some 70 footers? that will not pass, also had we had a square transom we would not have passed through.

2 If the gates are no longer independent that would also make it a no go.

[PD1964]

41 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

If the gates are no longer independent that would also make it a no go.

The lock had a big overhaul with new Gates last year and was heavy delayed with unforeseen issues, console and new electrical system being one, from what I was told by the guys on the ground. I know the consoles are new and more user friendly and I’m sure both gates open as one now, unlike before(but in my mind I’m still seeing/operating the old console😂) As I said the volunteer Keith is there most days in season and is very well thought of by CaRT and the local community and when not the other volunteer Paul is there. So it’s a lot easier to get through without getting off the boat.
  It would make sense to have the gates opening as one as in would stop chunks being taken out of the mitre of the closed one, causing damage/leaks and I’m sure CaRT put something out last year for boaters to open both gates on locks to prevent this.

Edited March 4, 2023 by PD1964

[oboat]

On 28/02/2023 at 14:32, Mad Harold said:

The HNC is listed as 70ft length,so even if you make it to Huddersfield, you will have to turn around and go back as the Huddersfield Broad is listed as 57ft.

HBC will take 60'- but no more. 

 

[IanD]

15 hours ago, oboat said:

HBC will take 60'- but no more. 

 

And you have to know what you're doing and take care, and be willing to get wet going by the leaks last time I went through...

[magpie patrick]

On 04/03/2023 at 16:57, PD1964 said:

The lock had a big overhaul with new Gates last year and was heavy delayed with unforeseen issues, console and new electrical system being one, from what I was told by the guys on the ground. I know the consoles are new and more user friendly and I’m sure both gates open as one now, unlike before(but in my mind I’m still seeing/operating the old console😂) As I said the volunteer Keith is there most days in season and is very well thought of by CaRT and the local community and when not the other volunteer Paul is there. So it’s a lot easier to get through without getting off the boat.
  It would make sense to have the gates opening as one as in would stop chunks being taken out of the mitre of the closed one, causing damage/leaks and I’m sure CaRT put something out last year for boaters to open both gates on locks to prevent this.

 

I'd agree with all that except the bit I've highlighted - CRT make a big thing about boats wearing out gates in this way but, in practice, a number of their gates have sacrificial strips and it would be easy enough to fit all of them with this - it's only a "replace like with like" policy that means it doesn't happen, and for all their squealing it is the joints that limit the life of the gates - when a gate is life expired then it's the joints that have gone (a bit like us really!). Occasionally an entire mitre post or heel post fails but that isn't the result of the mitre post being worn, it's usually the result of rot within the timber.

 

I can get that it's easier to fit a standard system that opens both gates at once, and that the system before (if it has changed) was probably some bodge rather than a bespoke system. I don't know whether CRT have upgraded the innards of their control pedestals but I suspect if there were real software in them making the system bespoke for a lock such as Thorne would be a lot easier. 

The big thing though is that it isn't just 70 footers that can't get through - it's anything longer than 61 foot 6 inches that's going to struggle. 

[Captain Pegg]

4 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

I'd agree with all that except the bit I've highlighted - CRT make a big thing about boats wearing out gates in this way but, in practice, a number of their gates have sacrificial strips and it would be easy enough to fit all of them with this - it's only a "replace like with like" policy that means it doesn't happen, and for all their squealing it is the joints that limit the life of the gates - when a gate is life expired then it's the joints that have gone (a bit like us really!). Occasionally an entire mitre post or heel post fails but that isn't the result of the mitre post being worn, it's usually the result of rot within the timber.

 

I can get that it's easier to fit a standard system that opens both gates at once, and that the system before (if it has changed) was probably some bodge rather than a bespoke system. I don't know whether CRT have upgraded the innards of their control pedestals but I suspect if there were real software in them making the system bespoke for a lock such as Thorne would be a lot easier. 

The big thing though is that it isn't just 70 footers that can't get through - it's anything longer than 61 foot 6 inches that's going to struggle. 

 

It may not wear the gates out in terms of structural condition but it is a source of water leakage and arguably a potential serviceability failure.  I don't know on what grounds CRT will and won't replace gates but if the bottom end leaks profusely despite being structurally sound it probably brings forward the time when the top gates cease to be functional as their condition deteriorates. It's also a massive pain to have leaking bottom gates when a top paddle is out of use. Unfortunately I think CRT is a little deficient in thinking of a lock as a system rather than a set of separate components.

 

It makes a lot of sense to configure automated systems to open both gates together. I note though that on manually operated locks that CRTs own volockies don't seem to be in the habit of opening both gates for one boat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[magpie patrick]

1 minute ago, Captain Pegg said:

It makes a lot of sense to configure automated systems to open both gates together. I note though that on manually operated locks that CRTs own volockies don't seem to be in the habit of opening both gates for one boat.

Not quite, generally there is no disadvantage in doing it and, from a systems point of view it's easier - I can't see a good reason on the River Lee for example for not opening both gates when they are mechanised (there is often a good reason, albeit only of convenience, when one has to walk round the lock). 

 

But in this case there is a clear advantage in allowing independent operation. 

 

Added to which gate wear happens on narrow locks and generally happens on broad locks where a boat will only just fit through one gate, in both cases the wear is from a boat squeezing through the gap brushing both sides. Thorne Lock is 17 feet wide, the gap though one gate is 8 foot 6 inches

[Guest]

Just now, Captain Pegg said:

It makes a lot of sense to configure automated systems to open both gates together. I note though that on manually operated locks that CRTs own volockies don't seem to be in the habit of opening both gates for one boat.

 

I think Thorne is pretty unique up North as (from memory) it is the only mechanised/automated lock that you could operate each side individually (Somebody else may know of others). The others open both sides/gates simultaneously. Ironically the others are so wide that they could easily cope with only one gate being open for lots of boats, particularly Narrowboats.

 

(That said of course I'm sure somebody would still manage to scrape the mitre.)

 

 

[Captain Pegg]

30 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Not quite, generally there is no disadvantage in doing it and, from a systems point of view it's easier - I can't see a good reason on the River Lee for example for not opening both gates when they are mechanised (there is often a good reason, albeit only of convenience, when one has to walk round the lock). 

 

But in this case there is a clear advantage in allowing independent operation. 

 

Added to which gate wear happens on narrow locks and generally happens on broad locks where a boat will only just fit through one gate, in both cases the wear is from a boat squeezing through the gap brushing both sides. Thorne Lock is 17 feet wide, the gap though one gate is 8 foot 6 inches

 

Narrow locks don't suffer to the same extent, probably because of the angle at which they are contacted.

 

I'm not sure allowing over-sized boats through is a clear advantage if that's what you meant. I'm sure there are plenty of narrowboats that do (or perhaps did) strike the edge of the closed gate at Thorne.

 

I think a point that gets missed is that it's much easier to steer a narrow boat through a wide lock where both gates are open. Trying to line a boat up against one wall is much easier done if you aren't trying to enter the lock by hugging that wall and then engaging a blast of reverse. Both are actions where the flow of water will push you away from the wall. In my short and square hulled boat getting alongside a lock ladder when ascending a 70' x 14' lock on my own isn't something I ever choose to do. It's a last resort if the lock layout demands it.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[magpie patrick]

34 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I'm not sure allowing over-sized boats through is a clear advantage if that's what you meant. I'm sure there are plenty of narrowboats that do (or perhaps did) strike the edge of the closed gate at Thorne.

Getting oversize boats through was enough of an advantage that the previous gate controls allowed it. Most of the locks with mechanised gates are so large that this advantage doesn't exist.

 

There are other variants too, bearing in mind the standard system works top and bottom gates and paddles and has interlocking to stop you doing something daft. Leeds lock allows the top paddles to open without closing the bottom gates (or it used to unless that's changed too) so the extension gates could be used. One lock on the Stort (Sheering Mill?) has only the bottom gates mechanised so has to take on trust that you've closed to the top paddles. 

[Adam]

18 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Getting oversize boats through was enough of an advantage that the previous gate controls allowed it. Most of the locks with mechanised gates are so large that this advantage doesn't exist.

 

There are other variants too, bearing in mind the standard system works top and bottom gates and paddles and has interlocking to stop you doing something daft. Leeds lock allows the top paddles to open without closing the bottom gates (or it used to unless that's changed too) so the extension gates could be used. One lock on the Stort (Sheering Mill?) has only the bottom gates mechanised so has to take on trust that you've closed to the top paddles. 

Are the extended gates at Leeds Lock still operational? I thought they had rotted off many years ago like most of them on the Wakefield Branch / C&H

[magpie patrick]

1 minute ago, Adam said:

Are the extended gates at Leeds Lock still operational? I thought they had rotted off many years ago like most of them on the Wakefield Branch / C&H

I haven't seen Leeds Lock for a number of years, and did say in my post it may have changed, but the extension gates survived well into the era of the lock being mechanised and they remained manually operated. 

 

The Calder and Hebble ones were rotting in the 1970s! 

[PeterScott]

On 28/02/2023 at 14:32, Mad Harold said:

The HNC is listed as 70ft length,so even if you make it to Huddersfield, you will have to turn around and go back as the Huddersfield Broad is listed as 57ft.

 

Red Doles Lock No 9 Huddersfield Broad Canal  Odyssey is 70'  - 22Jul2011. We reversed from Aspley Basin, so

if you make it to Huddersfield, you will have to turn around and go backwards to the top lock of the Broad :=}

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Adam said:

Are the extended gates at Leeds Lock still operational? I thought they had rotted off many years ago...

 

 

Yes, at least they [Leeds Lock outer gates] rotted as far as having a big hole. We embarrassed C&RT into replacing them in Winter Works 2017/18, mainly on the grounds that historic working boats ought to be able to reach the Leeds Waterfront Festival. Pictures 2Feb2018

 

 

 

[Tim Lewis]

Fulbourne (71'6") at Linton Lock, 1992

[oboat]

On 05/03/2023 at 15:25, IanD said:

And you have to know what you're doing and take care, and be willing to get wet going by the leaks last time I went through...

Yes, The HBC has some great new fish paddle gear, (I think one of the best systems on CRT waters, although a CRT engineer did object to the new gear when it was first installed by a local with initiative but thats another story) however being on an angle we did catch our bow on the lower gate fitting when going down in the last lock onto the river.

Edited March 7, 2023 by oboat

[Captain Pegg]

The Fraenkel report has specific dimensions for Thorne lock that give 66' 0" x 17' 7". 

[PaulJ]

On 04/03/2023 at 15:57, PD1964 said:

 I can’t remember if you can still operate the gates independently, since they fitted the new lock gates, as I know one of the delays was in fitting the new electric console operating system, every time I have come through recently there’s always been a volunteer on and both gates have been opened when in use and I’m sure when I’ve opened them for people they came in with both gates open, minds gone blank. Will find out next weekend when I go through. Must be one of the best manned locks around,

I went through there about week or so ago- pretty sure both gates open together although to be fair I was frozen, running out of daylight and the boat was only 58ft so not taking too much notice..😀

[peterboat]

On 07/03/2023 at 10:41, oboat said:

Yes, The HBC has some great new fish paddle gear, (I think one of the best systems on CRT waters, although a CRT engineer did object to the new gear when it was first installed by a local with initiative but thats another story) however being on an angle we did catch our bow on the lower gate fitting when going down in the last lock onto the river.

Fish paddle gear? When I went on it, it was a right mix of hydraulic and old well past its sell by date gear. What's this new gear look like?

[billh]

On 07/03/2023 at 09:51, Tim Lewis said:

Fulbourne (71'6") at Linton Lock, 1992

and Joel (70ft), Tommo ,Alan (reading the paper)& mesel'! Also seen in Huddersfield Broad top lock at IWA national  whenever that was.

[Stroudwater1]

On 08/03/2023 at 18:10, peterboat said:

Fish paddle gear? When I went on it, it was a right mix of hydraulic and old well past its sell by date gear. What's this new gear look like?

Most lower gates have paddles like this. A welcome relief from the hefty C&H paddles