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C&RT License Survey


Arthur Marshall

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5 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Not sure I follow you on the last bit there. 
 

It seems plausible that fighting for rights which don't exist results in rights you had, or thought you had, getting removed.

 

There are different schools of thought on this but I think too much loudness about all this continuous cruising thing is going to result in negative outcomes for people who actually do want to be able to utilise this arrangement as a way of living a fairly pleasant and low cost life.

 

Of course the people who get all loud about it have no interest in the subject themselves as they are simply in it for the politics.

 

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6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

At the moment

There was a quote somewhere from a CRT bod as they took the reference to a CC licence off their website to the effect that they'd forgotten it was only going to come in from 2024. As a result of this consultation, I presume.

By the way,  apropos mooring charges, my rate for a farm mooring is £10 a foot (not including the CRT mooring fee). CRT charge me £20 a foot.

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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27 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It seems plausible that fighting for rights which don't exist results in rights you had, or thought you had, getting removed.

 

There are different schools of thought on this but I think too much loudness about all this continuous cruising thing is going to result in negative outcomes for people who actually do want to be able to utilise this arrangement as a way of living a fairly pleasant and low cost life.

 

Of course the people who get all loud about it have no interest in the subject themselves as they are simply in it for the politics.

 

Yes, I understand where you’re coming from with that.

And agree to a point

 

but don’t there have to be some loud shouting to stop CRT becoming a law unto the selves?

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

At the moment


but ain’t they got to change a law if they are to introduce a second license?

or even to introduce a proper 2 tiered license?

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7 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Yes, I understand where you’re coming from with that.

And agree to a point

 

but don’t there have to be some loud shouting to stop CRT becoming a law unto the selves?


but ain’t they got to change a law if they are to introduce a second license?

or even to introduce a proper 2 tiered license?

They just need to tweak this that and the other, I never understood how they can charge parking fees at some moorings and not others, it just seems bizarre. If I have a standard licence which includes casual mooring etc, why do I have to pay anywhere?

What worries me is that I have to sign up to terms and conditions which may or may not be tested in law before they sell me a licence.

 

Edited by LadyG
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53 minutes ago, magnetman said:

There is only one type of licence for canals and that is a Pleasure Boat Licence.

 

That comes as a surprise to me as mine isn't one of those.

 

I can trivially think of several others as well.

Edited by TheBiscuits
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8 minutes ago, Goliath said:

but ain’t they got to change a law if they are to introduce a second license?

or even to introduce a proper 2 tiered license?

 

No. We had this discussion some years ago and Nigel Moore (RIP) confirmed that they can make whatever licences and subdivisons as they wish. I made some suggestions that C&RT could use to do this, Nigel responded ...............

 

 

British Waterways Act 1983

.....Notwithstanding anything in the Act of 1971 or the Act
of 1974 or in any other enactment relating to the Board or their
inland waterways,
the Board may register pleasure boats and
houseboats under the Act of 1971 for such periods and on payment
of such charges as they may from time to time determine:

Provided that the charge payable for the registration of a
pleasure boat shall not at any time exceed 60 per centum of the
amount which would be payable to the Board for the licensing of
such vessel on any inland waterway other than a river waterway
referred to in Schedule 1 to the Act of 1971 as that Schedule has
effect in accordance with any order made by the Secretary of
State under section 4 of that Act.

 

 

 

 

 

Nigel Moore 6/1/18

 

The 1971 Act has already been ‘changed’ twice: first in 1974 and then in 1983. The charging schedules of the 1971 Act, which specified charges for categories according to length, were eventually abolished, so that charges for a PBC are now merely pegged at 60% of whatever fees [according to whatever category] CaRT choose to charge for a PBL for the same vessel.

I have argued back and forwards on this in my own mind, but currently conclude that CaRT can legally do whatever they wish in respect of licence categories and charges, subject only to that percentage discount for PBC’s. The only [purely implicit] further restriction on the creation of yet more categories would be the restriction on charging more for such categories than for the ‘standard’ licence. Easily subverted, as Alan has suggested, by making the ‘standard’ licence category sufficiently costly, with discounts tailored to suit the managerial aspirations.

 

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5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

That comes as a surprise to me as mine isn't one of those.

 

I can trivially think of several others as well.

 

I was assuming the subject was about powered boats you can live on navigating or mooring on canals owned and managed currently by the CRT which is The Canal and River Trust.

 

Have you got any other suggestions for what they could sell to people who do this on canals that they manage?

 

 

And out of interest what type of consent have you acquired from the CRT for use of a non portable boat on one of their canals?

 

It does seem interesting.

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Just now, magnetman said:

I was assuming the subject was about powered boats you can live on navigating or mooring on canals owned and managed currently by the CRT which is The Canal and River Trust.

 

Have you got any other suggestions for what they could sell to people who do this on canals that they manage?

 

Yes.  The one I bought yesterday would be one example.

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

 

There is only one type of licence for canals and that is a Pleasure Boat Licence. Everyone knows this but the creep of Terms and Conditions and Rules is having the effect of moving the goalposts.

 

 

The CRT do claim that there is such a thing as a continuous cruiser licence. It technically doesn't exist but effectively. going forwards, it does exist. 

 

This is where the real world and the technically accurate world of law start to get into a disagreement.

 

 

 

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

1965 byelaws.

Have you got a link to these?

 

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Established use is often a precendent in law so one doubts there would be problems but it does seem interesting if the CRT can actually issue various different types of licence for use of craft on the canals. I mean craft subject to the BS and insurance requirements as set out in the '95 act.

 

I imagine this must be written down somewhere.

 

Surely they aren't making the t&c up as the go along.

 

 

Of course hire boats have a different type of licence but they tend to be based at a fixed location. I'm thinking about the idea of a mobile trading licence.

 

Someone will know and prove the validity.

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13 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Established use is often a precendent in law so one doubts there would be problems but it does seem interesting if the CRT can actually issue various different types of licence for use of craft on the canals. I mean craft subject to the BS and insurance requirements as set out in the '95 act.

 

I imagine this must be written down somewhere.

 

Surely they aren't making the t&c up as the go along.

 

 

Of course hire boats have a different type of licence but they tend to be based at a fixed location. I'm thinking about the idea of a mobile trading licence.

 

Someone will know and prove the validity.


I gave the smiley for your ‘making the terms up as they go along’ comment because it seems to be that’s what they do,

 

again with the trading license you can state home mooring or not.

the prices are higher than for the standard license fees 

it’s all on their website and it’ll explain better than me. 

 

Edited by Goliath
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3 hours ago, Goliath said:

I can’t be arsed with it anymore. Too many made up figures and invented scenarios. 
Most missing the point there is no CC license. 
 

 

 

👏

Some people have to much money Arthur and no realistic idea of what their ideas will really lead to

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Judging by Alan's quote from Nigel Moore above (and Nigel knew the law better than anyone else,  I think, ever has), then there is no reason CRT can't bring in other licences. A standard licence for home moorers, and a CC licence for those without.

As far as charging for moorings goes, they can do that, too, as we know. Long term and short term,  as well as changing the legal mooring periods on a whim. Llangollen has been a success, and so few complained that it's set a precedent for all city and town moorings - there just has to be enough demand to cover the collection cost.

I can indeed see some changes coming. Isn't half going to mess their plans up though if they run out of water every summer from now on.

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Some people have to much money Arthur and no realistic idea of what their ideas will really lead to

Been good though,  hasn't it?! I stumbled onto all this boating lark purely by accident. Been thirty years of pure gold (with the odd hiccup, admittedly!).

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