C&RT License Survey

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, Goliath said:

We’re gonna go around in circles again with the same arguments about how boaters must pay more for the system.

It’s pretty much a stale discussion. 

 

What’s concerning and interesting is with all price rises across the board at the moment how will it effect the ‘occasional’ boater?

It’s such an expense to part time boat. It would worry me if I were still living in a house and paying to keep a boat on a home mooring: the boat would have to go.

Are people still going to be able to afford to travel (by car or whatever) possibly several hundred miles or more  to take a boat out a few times a year? And then pay the extortionate amount on diesel to go holidaying and then find pubs and restaurants are over priced too?

I don’t think so.

 

I reckon and predict come next year lots of part time boaters will have sold their boats to save on their out goings.

And those land lubbers that can’t afford housing will buy up them said boats to live aboard.

 

 

I don't think anyone's saying that boaters should or must pay much more for the system, but so many are complaining all the time that boaters are given lower priority than "other waterways users" and that this is wrong. The reason was hinted at strongly by Richard Parry, CART has to keep the government happy by providing an attractive resource to the general public -- who after all pay 99.9% of taxes compared to the 0.1% that canal boaters pay (35000 boats vs. 35m households) -- as opposed to spending all their money on things which only benefit boaters like working locks and dredged channels. As far as the government is concerned, boaters play half what "everyone else" does, so get lower priority.

 

Given that money is all that seems to matter to the current government, boaters need to either pay more to get more priority or stop complaining that they're being treated as second-class citizens (which they are). Or hope for a government which can distinguish between cost and value... 😞

 

All prices of pretty much *everything* have gone up rapidly due to inflation, including all the costs of boating (license fees, fuel, gas) and living on land (rent, fuel, travel) -- and this is tough on *everyone*, but not a reason for people to give up (liveaboard) boating and move back to the land (or vice versa) because the cost of that has gone up too -- if they're screwed on the canal, they'll be just as screwed on the land.

 

Part-time or holiday boaters where the boat is an "optional extra" might give them up -- but then their other holiday alternatives will also be more expensive, so this still isn't a reason to switch -- unless they give up on the holidays completely.

 

Given that at the moment living on a boat is still probably cheaper than living on land, this might drive *more* people onto the canals as prices rise, not fewer.

 

So I don't think it's obvious which way the number of boaters will go with inflation and increasing prices of everything, up or down or no big change...

 

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

It's not as bad as that. Boaters currently pay 12% of CART income and the government grant -- meaning taxpayers, meaning everyone else including runners/cyclists/fishermen/walkers -- pays about 25% IIRC. Since this government knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing, boaters interests are put below those of the general public who pay twice as much.

 

Logically, if the license fee was doubled then boaters would become higher priority than the cyclist/fisherman/walker, and if it was trebled then they could be disregarded entirely.

 

So how much would boaters be willing to pay to move up the priority list?

I don't think you RC.

CRT have today corrected its CEO, Richard Parry, re his comments on the increase in licence fees -

 

Quote

 

Please note the previous release had a small error in Richard’s quote.

“…as we set out in our annual Boater Report, our core network expenditure is around four times what we raise from licence fees.” Should read “…as we set out in our annual Boater Report, our core network expenditure is around four times what we raise from boating.”

 

 "Core network expenditure" is rather meaningless. It does not appear in any annual report or other CRT documentation.

My own take is -
 

Quote

Boaters, who represent less than 10% of visitors to CRT's waterways, contribute (through licence and mooring fees) 25% of CRT's charitable spend each year. The only other visitors that contribute to CRT's £180m charitable spend are anglers who represent less than 5% of visitors. However, the amount is so small it is not shown in our Annual Reports.

Going back a decade, a very few of us expressed concern that that the new charity, should be regulated with regard to licence fees. We lost this particular battle and now it comes back to bite us.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Momac]

39 minutes ago, Goliath said:

What’s concerning and interesting is with all price rises across the board at the moment how will it effect the ‘occasional’ boater?

It’s such an expense to part time boat. It would worry me if I were still living in a house and paying to keep a boat on a home mooring: the boat would have to go.

Are people still going to be able to afford to travel (by car or whatever) possibly several hundred miles or more  to take a boat out a few times a year? And then pay the extortionate amount on diesel to go holidaying and then find pubs and restaurants are over priced too?

I don’t think so.

As you  say there have been price rises across the board . All other activities involve price increases .

 

However the C&RT licence fee increases are shocking i the  extreme and are on to top above inflation increases in recent years while at the same time there has been a visible decline in standards  as  well as a general decline in service. 4% in April 2022 x 4% in October 2022 x 9% in April 2023 . 1.04x1.04 x1.09=1.179  . So a 17.9% increase in 12 months .

 

Perhaps there will  a mass departure of boats from the inland waterways . 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by MartynG

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Or indeed how much incompetent management can do with sufficient funding ...

 

to be fair public sector and competent management aren't usually found in the same sentence in my experience.....

There's plenty of incompetent management in the private sector too... 😞

 

I think CARTs biggest problem is simply that they don't have enough money to even keep up with system maintenance, never mind catch up on the maintenance backlog that has built up since around 2000 and is causing more and more failures and stoppages, especially given the fact that their budget has not even kept up with costs so in real terms it's fallen.

 

No amount of clever management and budget juggling and efficiency improvements can compensate for a budget shortfall of about £100m per year, which is probably what CART have... 😞

[Lady M]

It seems to me that CRT only count their direct income from boaters when they talk about boater contribution to overall costs.  This annoys me for several reasons.  For a start, some of the income they describe as being from the investment portfolio also comes from boaters, and will reduce if boaters are priced away from using waterside services.

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Lady C said:

It seems to me that CRT only count their direct income from boaters when they talk about boater contribution to overall costs.  This annoys me for several reasons.  For a start, some of the income they describe as being from the investment portfolio also comes from boaters, and will reduce if boaters are priced away from using waterside services.

Which income is that?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

2 minutes ago, Lady C said:

It seems to me that CRT only count their direct income from boaters when they talk about boater contribution to overall costs.  This annoys me for several reasons.  For a start, some of the income they describe as being from the investment portfolio also comes from boaters, and will reduce if boaters are priced away from using waterside services.

From CRT's 2021/2022 Annual report -

Income from boat licences and moorings - £44.5m (page 75).

Expenditure of Charitable activities £180.2m (page 78). So about 25%.

However the headline figures do not take into account income lost from the sale of BWML( £8m pa?) or income from boating businesses.

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

All of who pay for it via their taxes, and who outnumber boaters by more than 1000x.

 

By the standards of everyone else who pays for somewhere to live and/or enjoy themselves, boaters pay not very much for quite a lot...

..

 

I think so too. Boaters get one heluvalot of services for peanuts compared to what house occupiers pay. And still they whinge and whine about paying not very much. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

I think so too. Boaters get one heluvalot of services for peanuts compared to what house occupiers pay. And still they whinge and whine about paying not very much. 

 

The licence fee and mooring costs will likely exceed what I pay in council tax on a band d four bed detached house.

 

That comment is utter nonsense.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Which income is that?

From whatdotheyknow.com, £4.7m ten years ago. Possibly  double that now.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

From whatdotheyknow.com, £4.7m ten years ago. Possibly  double that now.

I didn't mean where the information came from, I meant what the income source was.

 

"Investment portfolio" normally means things like income from property, building rentals and so on, I don't see how this can come from boaters. But I'd be happy to find out... 😉

19 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

From CRT's 2021/2022 Annual report -

Income from boat licences and moorings - £44.5m (page 75).

Expenditure of Charitable activities £180.2m (page 78). So about 25%.

However the headline figures do not take into account income lost from the sale of BWML( £8m pa?) or income from boating businesses.

 

Doesn't "boat licenses and moorings" also include income from all the commercial and hire companies as well as private boaters?

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I think so too. Boaters get one heluvalot of services for peanuts compared to what house occupiers pay. And still they whinge and whine about paying not very much. 

 

If anyone has got any better figures for how much boaters (private but also hire boats/companies who have the same needs) actually pay (from all sources) compared to the government (meaning, non-boaters) I'd love to see them -- but I suspect my 1:2 ratio isn't far off...

[MtB]

48 minutes ago, MartynG said:

However the C&RT licence fee increases are shocking i the  extreme

 

Bollocks are they.

 

I pay £2.5k council tax (license equivalent) on my tiny little land-based hovel, hardly any bigger inside than a 60ft widebeam. How much is the license on a 60ft widebeam, after the 'shocking in the extreme' rise? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Momac]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Bollocks are they.

 

I pay £2.5k council tax (license equivalent) on my tiny little land-based hovel, hardly any bigger inside than a 60ft widebeam. How much is the license on a 60ft widebeam, after the 'shocking in the extreme' rise? 

You don't seem to realise what council tax covers despite I am sure you are issued with an itemised  statement each year. 

Comparing council tax to a canal license is ridiculous.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

I didn't mean where the information came from, I meant what the income source was.

 

"Investment portfolio" normally means things like income from property, building rentals and so on, I don't see how this can come from boaters. But I'd be happy to find out... 😉

Doesn't "boat licenses and moorings" also include income from all the commercial and hire companies as well as private boaters?

Happy to oblige. CRT's boating income comes from the following sources -

1. Licences

2. Moorings

3. network access and connection agreements for marinas and online mooring sites

4. Property rents for a range of boating related businesses including hire boat bases, leased marinas boatyards and boat clubs.

The £4.7m quoted  from 10 years ago relates to 3 and 4 and is taken from the freedom of information request.

Also of note is that CRT's income from moorings  has gone down by about £8m pa due to the sale of BWML.

1.6 (primarily network access and connection agreements for marinas and online mooring sites)
3.1 (primarily property rents for a range of boating related businesses including hire boat bases, leased marinas boatyards and boat clubs)
4.7 Total

[Arthur Marshall]

Just now, MtB said:

 

Bollocks are they.

 

I pay £2.5k council tax (license equivalent) on my tiny little land-based hovel, hardly any bigger inside than a 60ft widebeam. How much is the license on a 60ft widebeam, after the 'shocking in the extreme' rise? 

 

 

It's not just licence fees, you have to include mooring costs as well as most boaters don't CC. I would think that would well exceed your council tax, and at least you don't often get stuck between roadworks for six months of the year.

It undeniably a big increase, but, assuming the system manages to stay in one piece for a year, it's not bad value for those leisure users who actually use their boats. For those who venture out for a week or maybe two per year, I think they'll get rid. There are boats on my mooring that haven't moved for years. For my minimum ten weeks holidays  and usually more, it's ok, and I still love the (mostly) peace and quiet of it. And luckily I can just about afford it, though I may take the melodeon on the next trip and busk to buy diesel (not sure the trombone would earn enough, though I might get paid to go away).

Anyone who can afford a new boat can afford a licence. It'll be the breakdown of the system that knackers it finally, not the costs.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Bollocks are they.

 

I pay £2.5k council tax (license equivalent) on my tiny little land-based hovel, hardly any bigger inside than a 60ft widebeam. How much is the license on a 60ft widebeam, after the 'shocking in the extreme' rise?

 

You rather miss he point that the majority of boaters have both a home and a boat

[Lady M]

Thank you for the figures, Allan.  By divesting BWML, CRT have deliberately reduced boater share of their income.  However, that doesn't stop them constantly telling boaters that they aren't paying their share.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

You rather miss he point that the majority of boaters have both a home and a boat

 

Of course he does.

[IanD]

39 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Happy to oblige. CRT's boating income comes from the following sources -

1. Licences

2. Moorings

3. network access and connection agreements for marinas and online mooring sites

4. Property rents for a range of boating related businesses including hire boat bases, leased marinas boatyards and boat clubs.

The £4.7m quoted  from 10 years ago relates to 3 and 4 and is taken from the freedom of information request.

Also of note is that CRT's income from moorings  has gone down by about £8m pa due to the sale of BWML.

1.6 (primarily network access and connection agreements for marinas and online mooring sites)
3.1 (primarily property rents for a range of boating related businesses including hire boat bases, leased marinas boatyards and boat clubs)
4.7 Total

So if you add up all the income that CART gets from boaters (private and hire), how big is it compared to the government grant?

 

Because in the mind of the government, this will set the relative priorities given to what boaters want (locks, dredging etc) and what the public wants (towpaths for walking/cycling/fishing/gongoozling etc).

[howardang]

12 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I (being a leisure user these days) had one long trip last spring, a couple of short jaunts and a truly dreadful summer when I had to hurtle back to Macclesfield from Northwich in order to beat the closure, which at my age is dangerous as well as unpleasant. This after being banned from travelling in the pandemic, and closures due to crap maintenance all over the place.

I can't image this huge increase won't be the norm in future years, either. I presume they'll put mooring fees up by the same amount, though with luck my provider won't. I do think this will take a lot of us low income folk off the canal, and give the middle income ones a bit of a pause for thought too. I can see why CRT have to do it, but it's a shame . I've thoroughly enjoyed the last thirty years, both living on and leisure, but I suspect in another two I'll be gone. And order books for new boats may be full, but how many will be cancelled as the year goes on?

I could see the writing on the wall last year and we very reluctantly made the decision to sell up and do something else. We thought long and hard before we took the step but now we are very glad we did the deed, and all the signs are that things will get increasingly worse over the next few years. 

it’s al very sad.

 

Howard
 

 

 

 

[Midnight]

I suppose in the scale of things the license fee is still a reasonable figure for the more serious boat users. Now semi-retired we spend several months cruising. As mentioned our Gold license upgrade cost £1446 about the same cost as flights to visit daughter No2 who lives in Canada. Musn'tgrumble so I won't mention blue signs, two-tone van livery and Facebook adverts - oh b@ll*cks!

[Guest]

Im just glad i'm not in the process of having a very very expensive boat built for the uk canals and waterways, (dont forget your anchor).

 

Surely nobody would be so daft in the current climate.?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

12 minutes ago, Lady C said:

Thank you for the figures, Allan.  By divesting BWML, CRT have deliberately reduced boater share of their income.  However, that doesn't stop them constantly telling boaters that they aren't paying their share.

"Deliberately" is obviously a matter of opinion. However CRT's 2017/18 show income from BWML Marinas as  £8.5m with no entry since.

[Midnight]

5 minutes ago, howardang said:

........................and all the signs are that things will get increasingly worse over the next few years. 

it’s al very sad.

 

That's the rub!
As Arthur said it won't be the cost of licenses that finish the canals it will be the lack of cruisable waterways. Here in Yorkshire we already know what the future looks like under Mr Parry. 

 

4 minutes ago, M_JG said:

Im just glad i'm not in the process of having a very very expensive boat built for the uk canals and waterways, (dont forget your anchor).

 

Surely nobody would be so daft in the current climate.?

 

Eeeeek! 

Well there's the Trent now that anchors are on the must-have list. It's getting to it that may be a bit tricky.