C&RT License Survey

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

4 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I'm going boating soon so can forget all this rubbish and chat to the ducks instead.

I did a few hours and a few locks today, a great way to forget all this rubbish. 
Lots of ducks to talk to

And I saw a very pretty Cherry tree coming out in blossom, 

early I thought for cherry blossom?

Rattled a few locks, a perfect day. 
 

Well… I’m not being charged any extra for using it yet, so may as well get on with it while I can. 
 

And I’m moored up for ‘free’ (🤣)…

 

 

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Exactly what I put Arthur, not that it matters as they have decided already what they are going to do

Go on then Peter, you seem sure -- tell us in specific detail what CART plan to do, not just a general "put the license fee up".

 

Then we can see if you're better at predicting the future than the polls you claim always get it wrong... 😉

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Go on then Peter, you seem sure -- tell us in specific detail what CART plan to do, not just a general "put the license fee up".

 

Then we can see if you're better at predicting the future than the polls you claim always get it wrong... 😉

If you have a survey to do you will know what they are going to do, they pretty much tell you from the beginning, as I have told you I have no intention of being on their waterways when it happens 

[peterboat]

11 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

Interesting.

 

The last guy I saw ramming lock gates was a private boating single hander forcibly ramming the gates open at Greenberfield on the Leeds and Liverpool. I mean forcibly, the noise was incredible.

 

Never ever seen a hire boater do anything like that.

 

Never.

Although years ago at a new set of lock gates, I had to assist the operation of them with full throttle and 5 people trying to get one gate open!!!

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I predict a rise above inflation on ALL license fees for next 10 years. 

Fat boats will be hit with an additional increase in license fee. 
And…. I reckon CCers (🙄) will continue with same deal as home moorers and not be charged extra for using the canal. 
Prompt payment discount will end. 
The other discounts will most likely remain
 

None based on my wishful thinking or my desire but what the crystal ball tells me. It tells me CRT will take the easiest option. 
 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Although years ago at a new set of lock gates, I had to assist the operation of them with full throttle and 5 people trying to get one gate open!!!

 

These gates were not new, but the idiot probably shortened their life significantly.

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, peterboat said:

If you have a survey to do you will know what they are going to do, they pretty much tell you from the beginning, as I have told you I have no intention of being on their waterways when it happens 

No, the survey tells you all the things they *might* do, it doesn't tell you what they *will* do.

 

Given that they've said they'll publish the results, it'll be pretty difficult for them to not do what boaters voted for, or do something that was voted against. CART have provided the options, but which ones are adopted will be down to what boaters say, not decided by CART.

 

Doesn't mean it won't go the way that CART (and many on here) expect -- a big rise for widebeams looks like a dead cert, and very likely a surcharge for CCers -- but boaters (or the NBTA) who don't like the result won't be able to blame CART, because *boaters* voted on what they wanted to happen.

 

So just for once CART will have listened to boaters, like everyone keeps complaining they don't do -- strike one.

 

And blame avoidance is probably one of the big reasons for CART doing the consultation -- strike two.

 

It's actually much cleverer than what they've done in the past -- lay out a buffet of assorted sh*t, then ask boaters to vote on which flavour of sh*t they want to eat for the next 10 years, and if anyone complains that their sh*t tastes horrible say "Well it's what you boaters voted for"... 😉

 

P.S. If you've really no intention of being on their waterways when it happens, surely you should disqualify yourself from voting? 😉

Edited February 22, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

Just now, IanD said:

No, the survey tells you all the things they *might* do, it doesn't tell you what they *will* do.

 

Given that they've said they'll publish the results, it'll be pretty difficult for them to not do what boaters voted for, or do something that was voted against. CART have provided the options, but which ones are adopted will be down to what boaters say, not decided by CART.

 

Doesn't mean it won't go the way that CART (and many on here) expect -- a big rise for widebeams looks like a dead cert, and very likely a surcharge for CCers -- but boaters (or the NBTA) who don't like the result won't be able to blame CART, because *boaters* voted on what they wanted to happen.

 

So just for once CART will have listened to boaters, like everyone keeps complaining they don't do -- strike one.

 

And blame avoidance is probably one of the big reasons for CART doing the consultation -- strike two.

 

Beware of people presenting opinions as facts..

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

These gates were not new, but the idiot probably shortened their life significantly.

I was at Kirk Bramwith and they had replaced the gates on the small lock, but they were badly adjusted. 2 CRT guys, Liz and 2 of the moorers and me all trying to get one gate open!!!!

It was dark before we got through, we moored up on empty mooring plugged in, had a drink then dinner and went to bed shattered 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

8 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

Beware of people presenting opinions as facts..

It’s not a vote is it?

That’s the second person to refer to the questionnaire as a vote

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

It’s not a vote is it?

That’s the second person to refer to the questionnaire as a vote

 

Not as far as I know, no it isnt.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 minute ago, M_JG said:

 

Not as far as I know, no it isnt.

So what’s he ranting about?

He’s off in his own world again.

Pointless me saying owt to him, he’s got me on ignore again

[Guest]

Just now, Goliath said:

So what’s he ranting about?

He’s off in his own world again.

Pointless me saying owt to him, he’s got me on ignore again

 

Same here, but he has a sneaky look so its always worth responding. Just in case others think he might actually know what he's talking about.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

13 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

Same here, but he has a sneaky look so its always worth responding. Just in case others think he might actually know what he's talking about.

Ok

34 minutes ago, IanD said:

No, the survey tells you all the things they *might* do, it doesn't tell you what they *will* do.

 

Given that they've said they'll publish the results, it'll be pretty difficult for them to not do what boaters voted for, or do something that was voted against. CART have provided the options, but which ones are adopted will be down to what boaters say, not decided by CART.

 

Doesn't mean it won't go the way that CART (and many on here) expect -- a big rise for widebeams looks like a dead cert, and very likely a surcharge for CCers -- but boaters (or the NBTA) who don't like the result won't be able to blame CART, because *boaters* voted on what they wanted to happen.

 

So just for once CART will have listened to boaters, like everyone keeps complaining they don't do -- strike one.

 

And blame avoidance is probably one of the big reasons for CART doing the consultation -- strike two.

 

It's actually much cleverer than what they've done in the past -- lay out a buffet of assorted sh*t, then ask boaters to vote on which flavour of sh*t they want to eat for the next 10 years, and if anyone complains that their sh*t tastes horrible say "Well it's what you boaters voted for"... 😉

 

P.S. If you've really no intention of being on their waterways when it happens, surely you should disqualify yourself from voting? 😉

What you on about?

It’s not a vote.

Its very far from a vote.

What you’ve said is very misleading.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Goliath
added strikes now removed strikes,

[LadyG]

38 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I predict a rise above inflation on ALL license fees for next 10 years. 

Fat boats will be hit with an additional increase in license fee. 
And…. I reckon CCers (🙄) will continue with same deal as home moorers and not be charged extra for using the canal. 
Prompt payment discount will end. 
The other discounts will most likely remain
 

None based on my wishful thinking or my desire but what the crystal ball tells me. It tells me CRT will take the easiest option. 
 

The DD payment is a great help to businesses, not sure if CRT is run like a business, of course. Omg I'm falling in to the trap of assuming CRT are always making bad decisions, or even no decisions, mea culpa. 

I think you've misread the runes, on all counts.

Edited February 22, 2023 by LadyG

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Ok

What you on about?

It’s not a vote. ————————————- strike one

Its very far from a vote.

What you’ve said is very misleading.—strike two

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a divisive consultation, designed to make some people believe that their comments will have an effect on the outcome of the consultation. Those of us that have owned boats on the waterways know better, especially after the last consultation where widebeam owners we deliberately excluded wherever possible 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

It's a divisive consultation, designed to make some people believe that their comments will have an effect on the outcome of the consultation. Those of us that have owned boats on the waterways know better, especially after the last consultation where widebeam owners we deliberately excluded wherever possible 

It is divisive. 
I think Bee summed it up well on another post about ‘splitting hairs’ and dividing boaters.

 

it’s one thing thinking any opinions on this questionnaire will matter much

but to misunderstand and think it’s a vote is a bit strong

 

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

So just for once CART will have listened to boaters, like everyone keeps complaining they don't do -- strike one.

 

And blame avoidance is probably one of the big reasons for CART doing the consultation -- strike two.

It's not clever, they have been doing Consultations on whatever they have already decided for 15 years now if you include the BW consultations once they were forced to do them.

The only reason that some of those consultations results changed things is that boaters went out and did the work BW and CRT should have done and showed the farcical or environmentally damaging results of their proposed changes.

Blame avoidance is something common in Goverment funded orgs. , cant argue there, unfortunately it damages the Worldwide appreciated golden goose of the lovely English canals further....eventually CRT will kill the influx of tourism if they carry on reducing moorings and increasing the costs of boating, holidays, hire, short term ownership, retirement dreams etc etc etc. 

No consultation covers the damage that are planning.

[Arthur Marshall]

A lot with surveys depends on how  the results are presented.  If they don't show  the results CRT want, they will be accompanied by a sorrowful statement that they tried their best to accommodate boaters' wishes, but sadly they have to take into consideration other factors, as well as protecting the interests of other users and their bonuses. No, forget the last bit, they won't say that but trust me, it's the bottom line.

And of course, they can tick the box that says they listened to us. Hell of a lot of difference between listening and taking any notice, though. Any fool can listen.

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A lot with surveys depends on how  the results are presented.  If they don't show  the results CRT want, they will be accompanied by a sorrowful statement that they tried their best to accommodate boaters' wishes, but sadly they have to take into consideration other factors,

 

 

Just one example of the 'conclusions' following the last big review.

 

Discussion on working out a formula for annual licence fee increases ............

 

Decision :

 

On the question of replacing RPI with a composite index, opinion was widely varied. Some argued for retaining RPI because it is simple and well understood. Overall however none of the arguments changed our view that the index should reflect BW’s actual costs

Edited February 22, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

34 minutes ago, matty40s said:

It's not clever, they have been doing Consultations on whatever they have already decided for 15 years now if you include the BW consultations once they were forced to do them.

The only reason that some of those consultations results changed things is that boaters went out and did the work BW and CRT should have done and showed the farcical or environmentally damaging results of their proposed changes.

Blame avoidance is something common in Goverment funded orgs. , cant argue there, unfortunately it damages the Worldwide appreciated golden goose of the lovely English canals further....eventually CRT will kill the influx of tourism if they carry on reducing moorings and increasing the costs of boating, holidays, hire, short term ownership, retirement dreams etc etc etc. 

No consultation covers the damage that are planning.

 

23 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A lot with surveys depends on how  the results are presented.  If they don't show  the results CRT want, they will be accompanied by a sorrowful statement that they tried their best to accommodate boaters' wishes, but sadly they have to take into consideration other factors, as well as protecting the interests of other users and their bonuses. No, forget the last bit, they won't say that but trust me, it's the bottom line.

And of course, they can tick the box that says they listened to us. Hell of a lot of difference between listening and taking any notice, though. Any fool can listen.

 

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Just one example of the 'concusions' following the last big review.

 

Discussion on working out a formula for annual licence fee increases ............

 

Decision :

 

On the question of replacing RPI with a composite index, opinion was widely varied. Some argued for retaining RPI because it is simple and well understood. Overall however none of the arguments changed our view that the index should reflect BW’s actual costs

As I said some of us have lots of experience of how they do business and some don't. 

[Midnight]

10 hours ago, Goliath said:

It is divisive. 
I think Bee summed it up well on another post about ‘splitting hairs’ and dividing boaters.

 

 

Not in the case of CCers unfortunately. I have sympathy with the genuine boater who navigates bona fide around the system, I suspect most of us think CMers should feel the pain. Afterall the increases in enforcement (if exists) need to be funded. They are taking the p*ss and enjoying a free mooring whilst the rest of us pay or adhere to the rules. Regrettably there's no difference in the license. CMers just ignore the rules but still have the same license i'e 'boat without a home mooring'. 

[IanD]

10 hours ago, peterboat said:

It's a divisive consultation, designed to make some people believe that their comments will have an effect on the outcome of the consultation. Those of us that have owned boats on the waterways know better, especially after the last consultation where widebeam owners we deliberately excluded wherever possible 

Well you're being included this time, aren't you?

 

Why not say what you really think, which is that boaters as a whole are likely to vote for a big fee increase for wideboats because most boaters have narrowboats?

 

And if they do this, why is it CART's fault?

 

I thought you were in favour of majority decisions, even 52:48 ones? 😉

Edited February 23, 2023 by IanD

[Private Fraser]

First they came for the widebeams and I did not speak out—
     Because I don’t have a widebeam,

Then they came for the ccr’s and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a ccr,

Then they came for the weekend warriors I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a weekend warrior,

Then they came for what was left and there wasn’t anything left.

[Tuscan]

The whole point of the consultation is to tell boaters that the cost of the license is about to rise dramatically. CRT will already have decided the mechanics and probably by how much. Inflation is projected to fall back to sensible levels by the end of the year so by establishing the principle with high inflation now they can ensure boaters vote for high increases for the next 10 years.