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C&RT License Survey


Arthur Marshall

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The consultation should quiz should also ask which legs of the system should be sold off for housing.  I nominate everything within the M25.  It is just another asset after all.  It will bring in pots of money, handled correctly, and reduce costs.

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Just now, Arthur Marshall said:

The only person I knew who claimed housing benefit to pay his mooring fees lived in a marina, and he said he couldn't claim anything once he'd moved out of it. Universal credit has changed everything now and I'm not sure anyone knows what the rules are, including those administering it.

I also don't think that the survey will show which boaters hate which other boaters. As far as possible I suspect we have all tried to answer as well as is possible being fair to all. It's a huge myth that leisure boaters detest CCers and vice versa, the system needs both. The questions are, of course, skewed to get the answers CRT wants.

 

I don't think hate is the right word, though there certainly seems to be widespread dislike for widebeams and CMers -- the main drive behind the answers for most people will undoubtedly be "what costs me the least?", which directly leads to "somebody else should pay more". It's human nature, and it's what happens when you ask people what they want.

 

I haven't seen it yet but I suspect the only answer CART really wants is to the question "how do we get the most money out of boaters without having our offices firebombed?" -- and there aren't many options open to them about how to raise the license fee, going by the FAQ. What other questions do you think should have been asked, if you don't like CART's?

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2 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

The consultation should quiz should also ask which legs of the system should be sold off for housing.  I nominate everything within the M25.  It is just another asset after all.  It will bring in pots of money, handled correctly, and reduce costs.

 can it wait til after the Cezanne Exhibition?

I’ve a visit planned

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<rant> Is that one of those things where people ooh and aah at a load of paint shoved on flat surfaces in the manner of primary school kids?   A painting is just a painting and none are worth more than 4s 6d.  </rant>

Where is it?  I'll arrange for it to be sold for housing also.

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Just now, system 4-50 said:

<rant> Is that one of those things where people ooh and aah at a load of paint shoved on flat surfaces in the manner of primary school kids?   A painting is just a painting and none are worth more than 4s 6d.  </rant>

yeah you got it spot on👍 

 

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1 hour ago, Jon57 said:

Not if they are on benefits. It won’t matter jot as the state will pick up the bill. An increase in licensing for some that aren’t on benefits just might make them eligible possibly.

I assume you have never had to claim benefits, its not something most people do out of choice, as far as I am aware, the first question they ask is what is the address. 

I seem to remember trying to fill out a form for something or other last year, and it was just impossible, I think I gave up on that occasion.

Generally it best just to avoid getting involved, living on a boat which moves around is not what certain organisations want to know about.

 

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10 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I don't think hate is the right word, though there certainly seems to be widespread dislike for widebeams and CMers -- the main drive behind the answers for most people will undoubtedly be "what costs me the least?", which directly leads to "somebody else should pay more". It's human nature, and it's what happens when you ask people what they want.

 

I haven't seen it yet but I suspect the only answer CART really wants is to the question "how do we get the most money out of boaters without having our offices firebombed?" -- and there aren't many options open to them about how to raise the license fee, going by the FAQ. What other questions do you think should have been asked, if you don't like CART's?


I have a little more faith in people.

 

for instance, I have no interest in widebeams and am generally not a fan unless they are historic barges, but I’m still not convinced they should cost more to license,

and I said so in one of them boxes where we were allowed to air our view

 

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36 minutes ago, IanD said:

I don't think that CART would know automatically, but I'd have thought that if somebody claims benefit for a license fee they have to prove that they're paying it and that they live in the council's area, and to prevent fraud the council would check this with CART? If they do, CART know that the boater is "resident" in one council area, which is almost certainly incompatible with meeting the CC rules.

 

But this might be worrying about nothing anyway -- how do CCers with no home mooring or fixed address prove to the council that they're resident in their area and should have their license fee (and benefits) paid by that council? Cash-strapped councils are quite averse to paying out money unless they absolutely have to...

30 or 40 years ago housing benefit had to be paid direct to the landlord (or BWB as it was then), since then successive governments have changed the system do in all but exceptional cases it goes to the claimant who is responsible for paying the landlord/CRT.

(The reasons for this vary but are generally to do with encouraging people to feel they have choice and control over their finances, and to get them ready for managing their finances when they start working and stop or reduce their benefit claim)

The council do not check that the landlord/CRT has received their money, and making a legitimate claim and then not paying the rent or licence fee it was supposed to cover would not constitute a fraudulent claim, although whoever you were meant to pay could make a claim against you in court.

 

As I said previously, and so has Arthur housing benefit can probably only be claimed if you have a permanent mooring. Other benefits are administered by central government and so can be claimed by CCers.

 

I appreciate this is way of topic, so if you want to carry this conversation on either start a new thread or pm me.

36 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

Edited by Barneyp
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8 minutes ago, Goliath said:


I have a little more faith in people.

 

for instance, I have no interest in widebeams and am generally not a fan unless they are historic barges, but I’m still not convinced they should cost more to license,

and I said so in one of them boxes where we were allowed to air our view

 

I answered the questions and gave my opinions in a way that I thought would make the license fees fairer, coincidentally the options I selected and opinions I gave would also lead to other people getting bigger rises than me.

It's very hard to give a totally objective opinion when you know you will be affected by the outcome.

Some people maybe able to be totally objective, and some may just go on what is best for their own finances. Most will be somewhere between the two.

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2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

But that doesn't help CART decide what to do, because almost everyone will choose A3... 😉

 

I assume the survey offers a set of options or alternatives (e.g. flat-rate or weighted increases, bigger widebeam surcharge of not, area-rating or current system, CC surcharge or not...) so that CART can tot up the total votes for each and see which are popular and which are not, and then use this to decide what to do (and use the votes as justification).

 

If this means that widebeams get charged more (because most boats are narrowbeams) and CCers get charged more (because most boats have home moorings) then it's difficult to argue against CART saying "but this is what boaters voted for".

 

You could sat that this is why a referendum (which is what this effectively is...) is often a bad idea, it can be better to have decisions made by people who understand all the issues in depth rather than possibly-biased or ill-informed (or selfish) voters -- who think they know best until confronted with the consequences of a vote they made... 😞

Well Ian it also asks whether the electric discount should be removed along with other discounts. As I have said before I rather hope that I won't be on CRT waterways by the time CRT do what they have already decided 

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1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The only person I knew who claimed housing benefit to pay his mooring fees lived in a marina, and he said he couldn't claim anything once he'd moved out of it. Universal credit has changed everything now and I'm not sure anyone knows what the rules are, including those administering it.

I also don't think that the survey will show which boaters hate which other boaters. As far as possible I suspect we have all tried to answer as well as is possible being fair to all. It's a huge myth that leisure boaters detest CCers and vice versa, the system needs both. The questions are, of course, skewed to get the answers CRT wants.

Arthur we both know they have already decided what they are going to do

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57 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I assume you have never had to claim benefits, its not something most people do out of choice, as far as I am aware, the first question they ask is what is the address. 

I seem to remember trying to fill out a form for something or other last year, and it was just impossible, I think I gave up on that occasion.

Generally it best just to avoid getting involved, living on a boat which moves around is not what certain organisations want to know about.

 

Wrong 

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19 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Arthur we both know they have already decided what they are going to do

Yes, increase the average license fee by above the rate of inflation for the next 10 years or so 😉

 

Having announced they're going to publish the result and then what they plan to do and why, it doesn't make sense to claim that they already know the detailed answer -- unless they have a crystal ball and know exactly what 35000 boaters (plus Tom, Dick and Harry) are going to vote for.

 

And we all know how accurate predictions of poll results are, don't we boys and girls? 🙂

Edited by IanD
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3 hours ago, Barneyp said:

But surely "real CCers" are the ones who should be paying the most, they are the ones who get the most use out of the canals and related infrastructure, and cause the most wear and tear.

Followed by active leisure boaters with a permanent mooring that cruise a lot.

With CM'ers being the ones who should get a reduction as their lack of movement means minimum wear and tear on expensive lock gates and other infrastructure. 🤔🙃🙃😉

 

The above is partly injest and I think CRT should clamp down on CMers but charging them extra will just encourage them as they will believe they have paid for the privilege of ignoring the rules.

 

 

Totally agree, but CCers should get a £3k surcharge as payment for the 365 overnight moorings per year they currently don't pay for.

 

But home moorers do.

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

Wouldn't that mean that CCers(CMers) claiming housing benefit (are there any?) would provide CART with direct proof that they're not following the CC rules, because they have to stay pretty much in one place to claim it?

Having consulted Mrs Midnight, a recently retired benefits Head of Service, it's a bit more complicated. Housing benefit (HB) is included in Universal Credit (UC) for new claimants. Local Authorities deal with HB for retired people and those who claimed before UC was introduced into their area. A High Court judgement in 2020 established that HB covered license fees irrespective of whether you moved around the waterways or moored in one place. The boat was judged to be the main residence. In short it wouldn't help C&RT identify CMers.

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7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Totally agree, but CCers should get a £3k surcharge as payment for the 365 overnight moorings per year they currently don't pay for.

 

But home moorers do.

Although it's not the "go nowhere" crowd in their "car park" marinas that are entertaining the crowds at Foxton or inspiring the casual gongoozler to appreciate the canals.

 

It looks like the hirers hit the most things to me!

 

Charges should be based on the load on the system not envy!

 

Of course, the "go nowhere" crowd don't buy any diesel, so they can afford higher charges!😀

I'm kind of hoping that the CRT already know what "load" each user group puts on the system and can therefore increase the charges fairly to make up the funding shortfall. 

 

Coupled with that could be even more efforts to get at least some additional income from the non-paying users of the system - walkers, joggers, cyclists - not a direct charge, but at least persuading a few more to contribute.

 

Perhaps they could shake the tin more - or even impose a charge - on the bookable and/or volunteer staffed things.

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10 minutes ago, Bristolfashion said:

 

It looks like the hirers hit the most things to me!

 

 

I agree. The only class of boaters I've ever seen hit a lock gate really hard at 3mph has been the boatful of 23 year boozed up blokes wearing dresses and/or pirate gear. And it was SO FUNNY, or so they found it... 

 

 

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2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

But this might be worrying about nothing anyway -- how do CCers with no home mooring or fixed address prove to the council that they're resident in their area and should have their license fee (and benefits) paid by that council? Cash-strapped councils are quite averse to paying out money unless they absolutely have to...

I have been cc'ing around London for the last few years, on and off.  I'm registered to vote in a central London borough under the 'local connection' rules.  I turned 60 this year, so attempted to get an over 60's Oyster Card off TfL - no dice.  If I don't have a fixed abode with bills in my name (not necessarily Council Tax) I can't get the discounted travel unless I get a street homeless shelter to vouch for me....

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1 minute ago, DaveP said:

I have been cc'ing around London for the last few years, on and off.  I'm registered to vote in a central London borough under the 'local connection' rules.  I turned 60 this year, so attempted to get an over 60's Oyster Card off TfL - no dice.  If I don't have a fixed abode with bills in my name (not necessarily Council Tax) I can't get the discounted travel unless I get a street homeless shelter to vouch for me....

 

Did you not know this when you voluntarily chose to live on a boat? 😅

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55 minutes ago, IanD said:

Yes, increase the average license fee by above the rate of inflation for the next 10 years or so 😉

 

Having announced they're going to publish the result and then what they plan to do and why, it doesn't make sense to claim that they already know the detailed answer -- unless they have a crystal ball and know exactly what 35000 boaters (plus Tom, Dick and Harry) are going to vote for.

 

And we all know how accurate predictions of poll results are, don't we boys and girls? 🙂

Exactly the survey is just another example of CRT wasting money when they know what they are going to do. Nothing has changed from the last survey and nothing will change at the next. Its simple, pay or move your boat off the country's waterways that we have mismanaged to rack and ruin! Oh and we will continue getting our bonuses for doing so well!

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I don't see why a widebeam tub on a wide canal should pay any more than a thin tub on a thin canal. Both are where they should be, and narrowminded though I am, I did point this out on the survey. Leccy tubs also deserve their discount in my view as they cause less pollution. I also pointed out that huge increases will just decrease the number of licenced boats thus negating the whole point of the exercise. I don't expect CRT to take any notice though.

Thank the gods though, my engine now stops when I yank the rod, to coin a phrase, which means I'm going boating soon so can forget all this rubbish and chat to the ducks instead. CRT will do what they do and while I can still afford to and can still climb a ladder, I have every intention of carrying on. It is, after all, what a grateful government give me a pension for.

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Just now, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't see why a widebeam tub on a wide canal should pay any more than a thin tub on a thin canal. Both are where they should be, and narrowminded though I am, I did point this out on the survey. Leccy tubs also deserve their discount in my view as they cause less pollution. I also pointed out that huge increases will just decrease the number of licenced boats thus negating the whole point of the exercise. I don't expect CRT to take any notice though.

Thank the gods though, my engine now stops when I yank the rod, to coin a phrase, which means I'm going boating soon so can forget all this rubbish and chat to the ducks instead. CRT will do what they do and while I can still afford to and can still climb a ladder, I have every intention of carrying on. It is, after all, what a grateful government give me a pension for.

Exactly what I put Arthur, not that it matters as they have decided already what they are going to do

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40 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I agree. The only class of boaters I've ever seen hit a lock gate really hard at 3mph has been the boatful of 23 year boozed up blokes wearing dresses and/or pirate gear. And it was SO FUNNY, or so they found it... 

 

 

 

Interesting.

 

The last guy I saw ramming lock gates was a private boating single hander forcibly ramming the gates open at Greenberfield on the Leeds and Liverpool. I mean forcibly, the noise was incredible.

 

Never ever seen a hire boater do anything like that.

 

Never.

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