Lister Petter warning light problem

[pt2583]

12 minutes ago, pt2583 said:

Might add a green "On light" just to remind me to turn ignition off 😅

 

[Peugeot 106]

1 hour ago, pt2583 said:

Might add a green "On light" just to remind me to turn ignition off 😅

Mine buzzes when you pull the engine stop until you turn the ignition off and also if the lights come on as an audible warning for high temp, low oil pressure, alternator kaput, heaters on. All the lights come on at start up and then extinguish when it’s running. It’s much more audible with the engine off!

[Rincewind]

On 09/02/2023 at 13:25, pt2583 said:

I'd be tempted to have a go at building a panel but put off by the capacitor and diode connected to ignition switch. I don't know why there so don't know if I need to keep them. Capacitor 63v 1000uF Diode 1N5404. As someone said originally diagrams don't make much sense to

 

An unusual & confusing schematic diagram as far as the switch is concerned but I think I may have sussed it.

All the connections I refer to are implied and need clarifying by tracing the wires through the loom to their respective components – or otherwise as the case may be!

I assume thus:-  on the drawing-

Switch Connection # 30               Positive feed wire from battery to ignition switch

Switch Connection # 58               Not Connected

Switch Connection # 15/64         to Instruments etc.

Switch Connection # 19               Glow Plugs (via Relay?)

Switch Connection # 17               Starter Motor Solenoid (via Relay?)

Switch Connection # 50               Glow Plugs, via Blocking Diode D1 to #19 cable

 

Switch Positions:-

Position P                        

·       Auxiliary position to supply power to equipment via # 58 when Engine is OFF (# 58 Not Connected)

Position ⓿       All OFF

Position ❶       Normal Running Mode 

·       Connects # 30 to # 15/54             (Instruments etc.) 

Position ❷       Pre Heat Position           

·       Connects # 30 to # 15/54             (Instruments) &

·       Connects # 30 to # 19                  (Glow Plugs)

Position ❸       Starter Motor Engagement

·       Connects # 30 to # 15/54              Instruments & 

·       Connects # 30 to # 17                  Starter Motor Solenoid &

·       Connects #30 to #50                     Glow Plugs via Blocking Diode D1

Use of the Blocking Diode D1 prevents power being applied to connection #17 when the switch is in position ❷

However during Starter Motor engagement (when power to #19 is denied) it allows power to be continuously supplied to the Glow Plugs.

 

https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf/1259962/Multicomp/1N5404/1

 

For those not familiar with diode symbols, the arrowhead (Anode) indicates the direction of flow whilst the vertical bar (Cathode) symbolises flow that is blocked.  The Cathode connection is indicated by a ring (white, in this instance) on one end of the component.  It is important to connect it the right way round, as in the drawing.

 

I suspect that the ignition switch was designed for a different application and this arrangement was a “work around” for these boats / engines.

[pt2583]

6 hours ago, Rincewind said:

 

An unusual & confusing schematic diagram as far as the switch is concerned but I think I may have sussed it.

All the connections I refer to are implied and need clarifying by tracing the wires through the loom to their respective components – or otherwise as the case may be!

I assume thus:-  on the drawing-

Switch Connection # 30               Positive feed wire from battery to ignition switch

Switch Connection # 58               Not Connected

Switch Connection # 15/64         to Instruments etc.

Switch Connection # 19               Glow Plugs (via Relay?)

Switch Connection # 17               Starter Motor Solenoid (via Relay?)

Switch Connection # 50               Glow Plugs, via Blocking Diode D1 to #19 cable

 

Switch Positions:-

Position P                        

·       Auxiliary position to supply power to equipment via # 58 when Engine is OFF (# 58 Not Connected)

Position ⓿       All OFF

Position ❶       Normal Running Mode 

·       Connects # 30 to # 15/54             (Instruments etc.) 

Position ❷       Pre Heat Position           

·       Connects # 30 to # 15/54             (Instruments) &

·       Connects # 30 to # 19                  (Glow Plugs)

Position ❸       Starter Motor Engagement

·       Connects # 30 to # 15/54              Instruments & 

·       Connects # 30 to # 17                  Starter Motor Solenoid &

·       Connects #30 to #50                     Glow Plugs via Blocking Diode D1

Use of the Blocking Diode D1 prevents power being applied to connection #17 when the switch is in position ❷

However during Starter Motor engagement (when power to #19 is denied) it allows power to be continuously supplied to the Glow Plugs.

 

https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf/1259962/Multicomp/1N5404/1

 

For those not familiar with diode symbols, the arrowhead (Anode) indicates the direction of flow whilst the vertical bar (Cathode) symbolises flow that is blocked.  The Cathode connection is indicated by a ring (white, in this instance) on one end of the component.  It is important to connect it the right way round, as in the drawing.

 

I suspect that the ignition switch was designed for a different application and this arrangement was a “work around” for these boats / engines.

Hi, thanks for this info, I'm planning on changing the electronic module for simple lights. I take it then I'll still need the diode.

[Peugeot 106]

I have never had the buzzer going off other than to remind me to turn off the ignition. But I have had buzzers go off on yachts and they attract the attention to the warning lights. Without a buzzer we probably wouldn’t have noticed until it was too late and damage would have been done. The buzzer isn’t very loud but you do notice it. I can’t think a panel builder would not incorporate one as they are cheap 

[pt2583]

14 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I have never had the buzzer going off other than to remind me to turn off the ignition. But I have had buzzers go off on yachts and they attract the attention to the warning lights. Without a buzzer we probably wouldn’t have noticed until it was too late and damage would have been done. The buzzer isn’t very loud but you do notice it. I can’t think a panel builder would not incorporate one as they are cheap 

Yes the one I've ordered will have warning buzzer, also have add them to my build

[Rincewind]

 

4 hours ago, pt2583 said:

Hi, thanks for this info, I'm planning on changing the electronic module for simple lights. I take it then I'll still need the diode.

I have made the assumption – from the drawing – that contacts #17 & #50 are connected together either internally or externally when the switch is in position ❷.  You may wish to check if that is indeed the case by doing a continuity test with a multimeter.  Isolate the power from the switch and hold the switch in position ❷ while you test for continuity across #17 & #50 (at the anode end of the diode).  You may need to grow another arm & hand while you do this! 

 

So if you intend to use the original ignition switch and my assumptions are confirmed then the answer is Yes, you will still need to incorporate the diode.

 

Be aware that the maximum current that this particular diode can safely carry is 6 amps (See the IN5404 Datasheet), and as the current demanded by the glow plugs will almost certainly exceed 6 amps, a suitable relay should be used – if one is not already installed.  Judging by the photographs of the switch, the size of the cables would suggest that you do have a relay somewhere in the depths of your engine room.

[pt2583]

13 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

 

I have made the assumption – from the drawing – that contacts #17 & #50 are connected together either internally or externally when the switch is in position ❷.  You may wish to check if that is indeed the case by doing a continuity test with a multimeter.  Isolate the power from the switch and hold the switch in position ❷ while you test for continuity across #17 & #50 (at the anode end of the diode).  You may need to grow another arm & hand while you do this! 

 

So if you intend to use the original ignition switch and my assumptions are confirmed then the answer is Yes, you will still need to incorporate the diode.

 

Be aware that the maximum current that this particular diode can safely carry is 6 amps (See the IN5404 Datasheet), and as the current demanded by the glow plugs will almost certainly exceed 6 amps, a suitable relay should be used – if one is not already installed.  Judging by the photographs of the switch, the size of the cables would suggest that you do have a relay somewhere in the depths of your engine room.

Yes there is a relay, but for the life of me can't fathom out exactly how it works. It described as a combined insulation relay. Also incorporates the control of temp monitor switch. Any help with understanding this would be greatfully appreciated

[Tracy D'arth]

32 minutes ago, pt2583 said:

Yes there is a relay, but for the life of me can't fathom out exactly how it works. It described as a combined insulation relay. Also incorporates the control of temp monitor switch. Any help with understanding this would be greatfully appreciated

I suspect that it keeps the heaters off if the engine or ambient temperature is high enough. An unnecessary complication.

[Peugeot 106]

31 minutes ago, pt2583 said:

Yes there is a relay, but for the life of me can't fathom out exactly how it works. It described as a combined insulation relay. Also incorporates the control of temp monitor switch. Any help with understanding this would be greatfully appreciated

That relay is actually 2 relays. One for the starter ( the right hand one) and the other is a split charger for the batteries. On my engine they are mounted on an aluminium plate above the flywheel casing

[pt2583]

11 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I suspect that it keeps the heaters off if the engine or ambient temperature is high enough. An unnecessary complication.

That's just what it says in operation manual, however as its on a temperature switch (I presume only open or closed) I don't see how it knows what the temperature is.

Just now, pt2583 said:

That's just what it says in operation manual, however as its on a temperature switch (I presume only open or closed) I don't see how it knows what the temperature is.

I suppose if it refers only to the deluxe model where a temperature sender is used instead, it might work then 🤔

[pt2583]

10 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

That relay is actually 2 relays. One for the starter ( the right hand one) and the other is a split charger for the batteries. On my engine they are mounted on an aluminium plate above the flywheel casing

Not sure on that 🤔

[Psychalist]

As you're already on the path to replacing the panel, you presumably are also replacing the glow plug controller. Assuming you're just going to excite the glow plugs manually, you can use a standard relay of suitable current capability (~70A) and forget about the timer for keeping the plugs glowing. The actual current is about 50A for 3 glow plugs, so probably less for 2.

 

I had the problem on the non-LED panel of the glow plug light constantly glowing half brightness due to the controller. I found with with engine running there was 8.7v on the glowplugs, so the timer in the controller wasn't switching them off. Though it did go from full brightness to half after the normal cold pre-heat time. The one in the Lister control box on mine was part numbered 89 9132 000 made in Hungary. I found equivalent: Ford  Fiesta/Escort/Transit Ford 84FB6M092-CA/CB. I got a Lucas one, made by Hella for Ford, glowplug controller from eBay seller oldsoldier for £20. Some pictures may help and tie in with your circuit diagram.

 

I think reference to temperature monitoring is a red herring. It just seems to be a timer circuit but may have some ambient temperature sensor encapsulated inside it - hence the last image perhaps explains what's going on. If I interpret it correctly there are three times the the glowplugs are activated differing for two ambient temperatures 0C and 20C. The first, presumably full current (12V) between 13s and 7s, the second between 25s and 14s and lastly between 12s and 6s. I must admit, having changed mine and resolved the issue with the light, I never checked the times and had forgotten about this diagram I found whilst searching for a replacement.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Psychalist
Relay current rating and clarified amperage on glow plugs

[pt2583]

3 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

As you're already on the path to replacing the panel, you presumably are also replacing the glow plug controller. Assuming you're just going to excite the glow plugs manually, you can use a standard relay of suitable current capability (~70A) and forget about the timer for keeping the plugs glowing. The actual current is about 50A for 3 glow plugs, so probably less for 2.

 

I had the problem on the non-LED panel of the glow plug light constantly glowing half brightness due to the controller. I found with with engine running there was 8.7v on the glowplugs, so the timer in the controller wasn't switching them off. Though it did go from full brightness to half after the normal cold pre-heat time. The one in the Lister control box on mine was part numbered 89 9132 000 made in Hungary. I found equivalent: Ford  Fiesta/Escort/Transit Ford 84FB6M092-CA/CB. I got a Lucas one, made by Hella for Ford, glowplug controller from eBay seller oldsoldier for £20. Some pictures may help and tie in with your circuit diagram.

 

I think reference to temperature monitoring is a red herring. It just seems to be a timer circuit but may have some ambient temperature sensor encapsulated inside it - hence the last image perhaps explains what's going on. If I interpret it correctly there are three times the the glowplugs are activated differing for two ambient temperatures 0C and 20C. The first, presumably full current (12V) between 13s and 7s, the second between 25s and 14s and lastly between 12s and 6s. I must admit, having changed mine and resolved the issue with the light, I never checked the times and had forgotten about this diagram I found whilst searching for a replacement.

 

This is fantastic info, many thanks 👍

[Peugeot 106]

1 hour ago, pt2583 said:

Not sure on that 🤔

Apologies. Looking at the attached pictures. The black box to the right above the anchor chain is the heater controller from Peter Thompson I mentioned earlier and I am now presuming that the starter relay and heater timers are sealed in there.

The green relay (Lucas 35RA SRB631) is the split charge relay. I recently replaced this as the case was broken

There is a 5 prong black BMI? relay? to the left of it connected to the temperature switch, earthed to the engine, with the other two wires going to the temperature light on the panel. I'm not sure what the BMI unit does unless a relay is needed between the switch and light.

I feel a bit daft giving you the wrong info re the relays as I've done all the wiring  myself and should know better. (it does work perfectly and maybe demonstrates that you don't need to be an expert but just join things correctly!)

 

[pt2583]

18 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

As you're already on the path to replacing the panel, you presumably are also replacing the glow plug controller. Assuming you're just going to excite the glow plugs manually, you can use a standard relay of suitable current capability (~70A) and forget about the timer for keeping the plugs glowing. The actual current is about 50A for 3 glow plugs, so probably less for 2.

 

I had the problem on the non-LED panel of the glow plug light constantly glowing half brightness due to the controller. I found with with engine running there was 8.7v on the glowplugs, so the timer in the controller wasn't switching them off. Though it did go from full brightness to half after the normal cold pre-heat time. The one in the Lister control box on mine was part numbered 89 9132 000 made in Hungary. I found equivalent: Ford  Fiesta/Escort/Transit Ford 84FB6M092-CA/CB. I got a Lucas one, made by Hella for Ford, glowplug controller from eBay seller oldsoldier for £20. Some pictures may help and tie in with your circuit diagram.

 

I think reference to temperature monitoring is a red herring. It just seems to be a timer circuit but may have some ambient temperature sensor encapsulated inside it - hence the last image perhaps explains what's going on. If I interpret it correctly there are three times the the glowplugs are activated differing for two ambient temperatures 0C and 20C. The first, presumably full current (12V) between 13s and 7s, the second between 25s and 14s and lastly between 12s and 6s. I must admit, having changed mine and resolved the issue with the light, I never checked the times and had forgotten about this diagram I found whilst searching for a replacement.

 

On my panel there is no glow plug light and the engine temperature warning switch sits across contacts 85 and 86, I think. Some how the switch activating is using the light terminal on the relay to, presumably, send earth back to the temperature warning light on panel.

[Psychalist]

3 minutes ago, pt2583 said:

On my panel there is no glow plug light and the engine temperature warning switch sits across contacts 85 and 86, I think. Some how the switch activating is using the light terminal on the relay to, presumably, send earth back to the temperature warning light on panel.

I think in that case, your switch is just taking positive and negative feeds and not involving the relay other than using the terminals to make a connection.

[Peugeot 106]

59 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

I think in that case, your switch is just taking positive and negative feeds and not involving the relay other than using the terminals to make a connection.

I wonder if mine is the same. I suppose you could prove it by just connecting the temp switch to the bulb and bypassing the BMI “relay?” altogether. Since I have an expensive controller i’d Have thought the BMI unit is redundant.

 

I’ve just realised there is a solenoid on the starter looking at my original diagram hence no relay for starting. My memory definitely isn’t what it was

 

when I originally wired everything I drew a proper wiring diagram. As is often the way I then added a temp gauge, tachometer, Peter Thompson controller (I wired it in as he directed with no real understanding of what it does) and Adverc Battery management and of course I never got round to redoing the wiring diagam. I just have scribbled notes in my notebook......

 

My controller was quite expensive. A LOT more than your EBay unit and i’m Now realising that it probably does the same thing.....if i’d realised  it was just a timer I probably wouldn’t have bothered with it as after all even I can count a few elephants ( or millions) I suppose it would be handy on a share or hire boat but if it’s always you that starts the engine it seems an added complication 

[Peugeot 106]

Following another ratch through my files. I seem to remember the post heat was something to do with emission compliance. Mine only gives one very short puff on start up

[pt2583]

14 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I wonder if mine is the same. I suppose you could prove it by just connecting the temp switch to the bulb and bypassing the BMI “relay?” altogether. Since I have an expensive controller i’d Have thought the BMI unit is redundant.

 

I’ve just realised there is a solenoid on the starter looking at my original diagram hence no relay for starting. My memory definitely isn’t what it was

 

when I originally wired everything I drew a proper wiring diagram. As is often the way I then added a temp gauge, tachometer, Peter Thompson controller (I wired it in as he directed with no real understanding of what it does) and Adverc Battery management and of course I never got round to redoing the wiring diagam. I just have scribbled notes in my notebook......

 

My controller was quite expensive. A LOT more than your EBay unit and i’m Now realising that it probably does the same thing.....if i’d realised  it was just a timer I probably wouldn’t have bothered with it as after all even I can count a few elephants ( or millions) I suppose it would be handy on a share or hire boat but if it’s always you that starts the engine it seems an added complication 

If my memory serves me correctly the relay on my boat does not look exactly the same as the way its drawn in the diagram, but then again you probably wouldn't expect it to as its a schematic diagram. When I'm next on the boat in day light, at the weekend, I'll take some pictures and maybe do a bit of wire tracing see if I can work it out and let you know. This relay is really the last puzzle on my boat that I want to solve, as I like to know how things work, so I can try fix if they go wrong. After all it's not like car, you can't just take it to the nearest garage 🤣🤣🤣.

[Peugeot 106]

I was told by an ex Lister engineer that the reason the Lpws has a 100 hour oil change rather than a 250 hour change for the Lpw is that the Lpws runs very dirty for the first couple of minutes at start up and contaminates the oil. Could this be the reason for the 3 minute post heat from this controller?

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I was told by an ex Lister engineer that the reason the Lpws has a 100 hour oil change rather than a 250 hour change for the Lpw is that the Lpws runs very dirty for the first couple of minutes at start up and contaminates the oil. Could this be the reason for the 3 minute post heat from this controller?

I always assumed it was something to do with the hydraulic valve lifters found on some listers.

[Peugeot 106]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

I always assumed it was something to do with the hydraulic valve lifters found on some listers.

Yes that is what results when you don’t change the oil, but it is the contamination of the oil caused by dirt at start up that causes the hydraulic lifters to misbehave as I understand it. The direct injection Lpw don’t contaminate the oil as much as the indirect Lpws hence the difference in oil change interval. The engines are pretty well identical other than the piston crowns, cylinder heads, fuel injectors and pumps

 

please understand I am just an interested amateur not a qualified marine engineer but I do take advice where I can and reckon to be able to do most jobs connected with my boat

[pt2583]

Been to the boat tonight and although it was dark took a picture of the relay and did a bit of prodding around the wires. Too dark to do any proper tracing will leave that for day light hours. Discovered that the relay has in fact already been changed to a simple 4 contact (85,86,87,30) heavy-duty relay. The power in and out to glow plug wires (6mm brown) and +ve and - ve wires have been cut from the original 6 way connector plug and attached to the new relay. This means I don't have pre heat function and more of a worry don't know if the temperature switch wires are even connected to anything anymore. Will now have to trace them out to confirm they are. Perhaps should have done all this first, but have to say its been worthwhile for me as I've learnt a lot from what's been said.

[Eeyore]

On 16/02/2023 at 17:41, Peugeot 106 said:

Yes that is what results when you don’t change the oil, but it is the contamination of the oil caused by dirt at start up that causes the hydraulic lifters to misbehave as I understand it. The direct injection Lpw don’t contaminate the oil as much as the indirect Lpws hence the difference in oil change interval. The engines are pretty well identical other than the piston crowns, cylinder heads, fuel injectors and pumps

 

please understand I am just an interested amateur not a qualified marine engineer but I do take advice where I can and reckon to be able to do most jobs connected with my boat

Nothing to do with the lifters. Its the difference in compression ratio between the indirect injection LPWS at about 22:1 and the direct injection LPW at about 16:1. The higher compression simply creates more blow by until the piston and rings get up to full working temperature; the best seal being when they have expanded fully into the bore. The pistons and rings will of course only be fully expand if the engine is worked hard enough for it to maintain full working temperature, so more blow by on the LPWS engine is just a fact. Don't forget that the coolant temperature is no indication that the internal components are at full working temperature.

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Eeyore