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Lister Petter warning light problem


pt2583

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2 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

I'd agree with the other posters 200 quid for not even an original panel is a lot. Just buy 3 12v warning lights from somewhere like vehicle wiring supplies or durite or off ebay. 

 

Worth looking on ebay as the lister panels do come up from time to time. 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a lister panel on there now - 200 quid, but it does at least have some instruments. 

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8 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
There is a lister panel on there now - 200 quid, but it does at least have some instruments. 
 
Yep i wouldn't buy any of those. The dragon systems ones all seem very expensive to me . The parts would cost a tenth of what they are asking. 
 
Obviously if you can't make one you have to pay for their expertise. Not that it's needs much expertise to wire these things up. 
 
 
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3 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Looking at most diagrams, it looks complicated, but breaking it down simplifies it quite a bit. I might have a go a doing our one. I notice in the other thread you suggest 2.2W bulbs as a replacement for LEDS. Would 2.2W bulbs be suitable for all three lamps, Oil,temperature and alternator?

 

I particularly like your comment, which might inspire me to have a go :

 

I'd be tempted to have a go at building a panel but put off by the capacitor and diode connected to ignition switch. I don't know why there so don't know if I need to keep them. Capacitor 63v 1000uF Diode 1N5404. As someone said originally diagrams don't make much sense to

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9 minutes ago, pt2583 said:

I'd be tempted to have a go at building a panel but put off by the capacitor and diode connected to ignition switch. I don't know why there so don't know if I need to keep them. Capacitor 63v 1000uF Diode 1N5404. As someone said originally diagrams don't make much sense to

IMG_20230209_131407.jpg

IMG_20230209_131449.jpg

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I think I'm going to have a go with some cheap bulbs, connecting one at a time in circuit. At least that way it can be undone easy enough if I make a mess of it. 

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9 minutes ago, pt2583 said:

I'd be tempted to have a go at building a panel but put off by the capacitor and diode connected to ignition switch. I don't know why there so don't know if I need to keep them. Capaccitor 63v 1000uF Diode 1N5404. As someone said originally diagrams don't make much sense to

 

 

I am not confident about this, but I suspect the capacitor is used for smoothing alternator ripple so it does not affect the electronics. It is not necessary on a bog-standard panel with no electronics, save those that may be in a buzzer or the rev counter.

 

I am less sure about the diode because I don't understand what the thing with the black rectangles is supposed to be, and I can't identify any buzzer. I suspect it is a "flywheel diode" that damps voltage spices caused when coils are turned off. Again they are not required on normal panels

 

 

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I don't think the capacitor/diode addition is part of the standard Lister wiring. As Tony says it's probably to avoid spikes getting to the electronic panel.

 

Just thought it worth adding, since @Peugeot 106 mentioned it, the glow plug heater relay is not only confusing, but potentially a source of a problem. I have a simple Lister panel, but with bulbs and a rev counter, and was mystified as to why my glow plug lamp, instead of going out after the heating period, went to half brightness and stayed that way. This was different from what the OP is seeing, but with an LED panel, who knows? The other lights behaved correctly, which is why I didn't mention it before.

 

I think the function of the controller relay is to reduce the current after a period but before the engine fires. I couldn't fathom the panel or the voltages I measured but suspected some electronics in the module were faulty so in the end decided to replace it. That turned out to be a challenge. It turned out to be one used in Ford Fiesta and Sierra. I eventually found a new one on Ebay after discovering scrap yards don't keep old cars any more. Changing the module fixed it.

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2 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

I don't think the capacitor/diode addition is part of the standard Lister wiring. As Tony says it's probably to avoid spikes getting to the electronic panel.

Pretty sure mine has them, with the same led panel. 

 

I will go and look in a bit. 

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23 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am not confident about this, but I suspect the capacitor is used for smoothing alternator ripple so it does not affect the electronics. It is not necessary on a bog-standard panel with no electronics, save those that may be in a buzzer or the rev counter.

 

I am less sure about the diode because I don't understand what the thing with the black rectangles is supposed to be, and I can't identify any buzzer. I suspect it is a "flywheel diode" that damps voltage spices caused when coils are turned off. Again they are not required on normal panels

 

 

Thing with black triangles is ignition switch

Just now, pt2583 said:

Thing with black triangles is ignition switch

Sorry rectangles

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30 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

I don't think the capacitor/diode addition is part of the standard Lister wiring. As Tony says it's probably to avoid spikes getting to the electronic panel.

 

Just thought it worth adding, since @Peugeot 106 mentioned it, the glow plug heater relay is not only confusing, but potentially a source of a problem. I have a simple Lister panel, but with bulbs and a rev counter, and was mystified as to why my glow plug lamp, instead of going out after the heating period, went to half brightness and stayed that way. This was different from what the OP is seeing, but with an LED panel, who knows? The other lights behaved correctly, which is why I didn't mention it before.

 

I think the function of the controller relay is to reduce the current after a period but before the engine fires. I couldn't fathom the panel or the voltages I measured but suspected some electronics in the module were faulty so in the end decided to replace it. That turned out to be a challenge. It turned out to be one used in Ford Fiesta and Sierra. I eventually found a new one on Ebay after discovering scrap yards don't keep old cars any more. Changing the module fixed it.

This is the heater controller I fitted. Regrettably Peter Thompson has retired and sold his business but MES  Midlands May be able to help (Richard and Sue Powell).

i’ll see If I can find a photo of the back of my panel also supplied by Peter Thompson but i’m sure it too has a capaciror\diodeB7269D9E-6598-418C-97BE-DF4959CE8413.jpeg.2b0d62c418e14473ced2cfae83132753.jpegA5F70B50-8AD5-49EF-A768-6C726D5DE2FB.jpeg.5c885de7fddec910aac63614e98774e7.jpeg

 

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34 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

I think the function of the controller relay is to reduce the current after a period but before the engine fires. I couldn't fathom the panel or the voltages I measured but suspected some electronics in the module were faulty so in the end decided to replace it. That turned out to be a challenge. It turned out to be one used in Ford Fiesta and Sierra. I eventually found a new one on Ebay after discovering scrap yards don't keep old cars any more. Changing the module fixed it.

 

It is almost certainly an unnecessary hang over from automotive origins. The reduced power to the glow plugs for a period once the engine has started is intended to reduce diesel knock and probably emissions from a cold engine, Again, an unnecessary complication for boat use (on a pre RCD boat). Many boats do not have a relay to power the glow plugs but it is a good idea to use a heavy duty one down close to the engine to power the plugs. This saves the full glow plug current passing through the ignition switch.

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I am wondering if the capacitor and diode form an oscillator circuit with the led diodes and resistors to produce the flashing lamps.

Normally it would need to be an Esaki ( tunnel ) diode to form a relaxation oscillator and I don't think that one is. 

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Here is a picture of my panel from the rear. On the left is a temp gauge before wiring in and I later added an Adverc . The panel just had the ignition and warning lights. The Tacho and Temp gauge I added as afterthoughts to the bulkhead. As you can see its not exactly complicated. I just followed Peter Thompson instructions carefully and when I put the second hand  Adverc (Battery Charge controller)  in I again just followed the Adverc instructions.

 

All works fine!IMG_5489.JPG.649ebe70507df4981ab809ae404d5c35.JPG

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1 hour ago, Peugeot 106 said:

The front of my panel and a better shot of the rear showing 2 diodes?  If you are anywhere near the Lancaster PM me if you would like to have a look. I can take the back off so that you can have a proper look and maybe us 2 potters can have a natter and compare notesIMG_8003.JPG.eeee77e8af33aa10898711c2cafa973e.JPGP1020099(2).JPG.198ec8fb42beb1f033b24723a7202043.JPG

No unfortunately not I'm on Grand Union in Hertfordshire

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I don't think the capacitor/diode is for anything as complicated as flashing the leds. I think Tony is right its some sort of suppressor or smoothing capacitor as it's across the battery pos and neg coming in. Diode looks more like some sort of backfeed preventer for the glowplug relay, in the start position, but looks unnecessary to me.

 

 

 

On a separate note. I had a problem with my glowplug relay and the lister item was over a £100, I found a land rover discovery one was near enough and could be had for a fiver secondhand.

 

 

 

 

Edited by jonathanA
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40 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Diode looks more like some sort of backfeed preventer for the glowplug relay, in the start position, but looks unnecessary to me.

 

That is what makes me think it is acing as a flywheel diode to "short" any voltage surges spikes when a coil in a relay or such like is de-energised safely. Some relays have them built in, some do not

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13 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But is it the one for the short-lived panel using LEDs and electronics, which is the subject of this topic? You will find that bar different drawing conventions, all makers diagrams are virtually identical.

That is an engine wiring diagram for a much later engine. Also I very much doubt the engine in question has an insulated earth system. The one helpful thing is that Listers tended to be pretty constant on there colour codes. Therefore if you look at any diagram and see what each colour cable does it should be the same no matter what age of engine.

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10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It is almost certainly an unnecessary hang over from automotive origins. The reduced power to the glow plugs for a period once the engine has started is intended to reduce diesel knock and probably emissions from a cold engine, Again, an unnecessary complication for boat use (on a pre RCD boat). Many boats do not have a relay to power the glow plugs but it is a good idea to use a heavy duty one down close to the engine to power the plugs. This saves the full glow plug current passing through the ignition switch.

As you say these controllers were not really needed. They were fitted so that the heaters would work automatically when the ignition was switched on. Can't see the point myself as there is no hardship in holding a key in a heat position. A simple relay in the heater circuit will do the job.

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I looked again at the capacitor and diode arrangement. With the inductance of the relay in the cold start control box it is indeed a relaxation oscillator and is responsible for the flashing of the lights. You could prove it by disconnecting one end.

  • Greenie 1
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10 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I looked again at the capacitor and diode arrangement. With the inductance of the relay in the cold start control box it is indeed a relaxation oscillator and is responsible for the flashing of the lights. You could prove it by disconnecting one end.

So I'm down the boat tonight and I've tested your idea. Disconnected the capacitor and on the first position of ignition where I'd normally turn on the three red flashing warning lights - no lights at all so looks like you're correct the capacitor does appear to part of the red flashing light circuit

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Spent much of the day on the boat so able to try some of the suggestions.

 

Alternator belt tension is fine.

Cleaned contacts on the multi plug.

Checked connections of ignition switch (some were a little loose) cleaned ignition switch terminals.

Disconnected the split charge relay, as Tony's notes on electric ccts said SCR on alternator warning wire could cause slower alternator excitement.

Checked alternator warning light connection on alternator.

 

And the result was I didn't have to rev the engine as fast as before all the checks, however the the LEDs on the warning panel have now become more erratic. They don't just flash, now they are very intermittent. Sometimes flashing and sometimes a couple of them were off. I have therefore come to the conclusion that, as someone else said, the Led warning panel has had it so I'm going to have to replace it.

 

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and advice

  • Greenie 1
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Can I suggest Dragon Marine Systems. Looking at eBay they have over 100 panels on sale at various prices. If you take photos and describe your problem they may be able to come up with a solution eg mend the one you have or supply a new one. I might be tempted to send yours to them and get them to check it out. As specialists it would probably not be a big deal for them and may be simplest and most economical for you.

good luck

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19 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Can I suggest Dragon Marine Systems. Looking at eBay they have over 100 panels on sale at various prices. If you take photos and describe your problem they may be able to come up with a solution eg mend the one you have or supply a new one. I might be tempted to send yours to them and get them to check it out. As specialists it would probably not be a big deal for them and may be simplest and most economical for you.

good luck

Yes earlier in the post I put they're website link in one of my replies saying I was thinking about doing just that. In fact I have now sent my panel off to them so they can build me a new one. When they return my original panel and new one I plan to use my old panel to have a go at building my own to have as a spare. Below is the diagram I've put together so far and a picture of the rear of my panel when I removed it. I've seen in the pictures of the back of your panel you have the diode in place on the ignition switch like mine. Still trying to work out if it's needed or not. My best guess based on what people have advised on here is its not needed, but probably doesn't do any damage being there.

IMG_20230215_173804.jpg

IMG_20230215_173949.jpg

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2 minutes ago, pt2583 said:

Yes earlier in the post I put they're website link in one of my replies saying I was thinking about doing just that. In fact I have now sent my panel off to them so they can build me a new one. When they return my original panel and new one I plan to use my old panel to have a go at building my own to have as a spare. Below is the diagram I've put together so far and a picture of the rear of my panel when I removed it. I've seen in the pictures of the back of your panel you have the diode in place on the ignition switch like mine. Still trying to work out if it's needed or not. My best guess based on what people have advised on here is its not needed, but probably doesn't do any damage being there.

IMG_20230215_173804.jpg

IMG_20230215_173949.jpg

Might add a green "On light" just to remind me to turn ignition off 😅

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