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Best place in England / Mooring- for having a midlife crisis!


Robby789

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38 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I think that exploratory conversation would need to be conducted with some discretion, yes.

...

There are ways you can discuss things with the staff of your preferred marina whereby you both understand the arrangement, but neither openly states what it is. 

But it may be that merely raising the subject with marina staff, however discretely, results in a 'no', whereas if you just do it, and don't create any problems they can continue to look the other way.

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I get the impression that things have changed in recent times and there are now quite a lot of marinas where although the rules say "no liveaboards" there are numerous boats being lived on 100% and no one seems to bother. Although I think I would hesitate to do this in case the local authority decided to ask questions and we got chucked out.

Times seem to be changing 

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Unless he is very lucky, the OP is just not going to find an official residential mooring with the facilities he wants, at a price can afford, in an area he wants to be, at the time he needs it. So he should face up to the fact that his choice is living aboard 'below the radar' on a leisure mooring or CCing.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Is that a 'residential mooring', or a "residential, if don't rock the boat & keep your head, down leisure mooring" ?

 

OP has said he doesn't want to 'duck & dive' and use a leisure mooring as a residential mooring.

In his circumstances, I cannot say I blame him - I was in a (C&RT / BWML) marina where a boater was kicked out for breaking the rules - he was given 15 minutes to leave and it ended up with the Police being called.

Thats not something you need when just starting out, got a job sorted etc etc.

 

Better to play by the rules, at least initially, and know that you at least have a little security.

 

I think this is bordering on scaremongering; or let me put it another way. You know sometimes people get stopped by the police for 71mph on a motorway, and they get a speeding fine (and points etc). Its because their interaction with the police goes badly wrong, at some point (the "attitude test"). In the same way, some moorers seem to fail "the attitude test" when it comes to interactions with others including the marina management, resulting in the latter looking for any angle to get them out. We would need the full story of the above to judge its merits properly.....

 

It does raise a good point though - there is no security of tenure with a mooring, its not like renting a room/flat. But thousands of boaters get on just fine with their marina management, and a proportion of those are living aboard on a non-resi mooring.

 

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I keep hearing about these 'Napolean' marinas (I see no ships) but having spent many (40+) years in a variety of marinas I have yet to find one. 

There are always strong distinctions between residential and leisure in both the facilities provided and the evidence needed to obtain a mooring.

 

We currently have boats in two marinas and they both very clearly state (and enforce) NO LIVEABOARDS.

 

I've spent less time as a canal boater but I've found about half the marinas allow it. It helps if you are serious and have a canal boat, and maybe you've been in there a few times before to buy a bag of logs or whatever. Guess what? They don't fly a flag 20 foot in the air with big bold letters "LIVEABOARDS ARE OKAY ON NON-RESIDENTIAL MOORINGS HERE!!!!". Maybe you look like a Council official or something like that?? They do exist, plenty of people here have direct experience of it, its been hinted widely on this thread and others already, its a non-issue unless you choose to seek trouble or make it an issue!!

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

We currently have boats in two marinas and they both very clearly state (and enforce) NO LIVEABOARDS.

 

But those are coastal marinas aren't they? 

Surely the inland waterways marinas are a different animal.

I hope you'll forgive my bluntness here, but whilst I think its good to try and give the OP a clear idea of any potential snags, it is not helping him very much- if at all- to give examples of coastal marinas that harbour yachts and the like. If anything, it will give him a falsely negative picture, and may lead to a poor decision being made.

 

When the marina ask for an address he can give his family address, surely?

After all, he is not talking to DVLA or to a bank. Or maybe he can give them a boatmail address, once that is set up. 

 

I don't want to downplay the possible snags, and there are some hurdles to navigate, for sure.

It would be a good idea to ask here if anyone is aware of the informal liveaboard policy for a marina that is of interest. 

Then there is the conversation with the marina staff, IF they ask you how many nights per year you wish to stay on the boat. I bet in some marinas they dont even ask the question.

But a bit of research on this forum will give him a good idea if certain marinas are even worth approaching. 

 

One other thing I remember, there were a couple of marinas that preferred your boat to be reasonably tidy-looking, so dont put logs or coal or bikes on the roof, that kind of thing. 

With the state of my hull sides, I'm not sure I'd get in a couple of them at the moment!

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

When the marina ask for an address he can give his family address, surely?

 

I'm talking about my experiences of canal boats in inland marinas - in answer to the above , it is not specifically an adress they want, they want to see evidence that YOU (not your parents are paying council tax (it may help if your Fathers name is identical to your own.

 

IYou (and others) may consider it 'scaremongering' but it is also factual, and something the op may come across and should be prepared for.

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About ten yars ago I discussed getting a mooring at Limehouse marina. They have some residential moorings. I was told (not by the staff but by a moorer there) that the way I spoke was all good but perhaps putting on a shirt, clean trousers, having a shower and doing something about the hair would result in an increased likelihood of being accepted for a mooring. 

 

Plus of course tidying the boat up. It was not all about the boat. The other boat owner who told me this may have been ribbing me. 

 

Anyway I got an on line residential mooring with the CRT in the area and after ten yars they STILL haven't got rid of me. Only a matter of time I expect. 

 

The joys of living on boats as the only option. 

 

Anyone asks me I just say think long and hard and get into buying something which doesn't depreciate. 

 

I like depreciation and rust and decay, it's the best thing since bread but it could catch a lot of people out so he very careful when thinking about putting all your eggs in a boat basket. 

Edited by magnetman
Edit to remove racist sex references
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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'm talking about my experiences of canal boats in inland marinas - in answer to the above , it is not specifically an adress they want, they want to see evidence that YOU (not your parents are paying council tax (it may help if your Fathers name is identical to your own.

 

IYou (and others) may consider it 'scaremongering' but it is also factual, and something the op may come across and should be prepared for.

 

As I said, I'm not trying to have a dig for the sake of it, and we are all trying to help the OP understand the issues he has ahead. 

Perhaps others with long term marina experiences will add a comment on the question on informal liveaboard policies, but it does seem as if a request to see a council tax or similar bill is not a common thing. Also, in his initial phone call to a potential marina,  the OP would have scoped out their attitude with a few carefully worded questions, and he would have ruled out any marinas that ask for this kind of thing.

There seem to be enough northern marinas that are affordable, and that do have the informal liveaboard policy, that it does sounds like he can be reasonably optimistic. 

 

 

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

As I said, I'm not trying to have a dig for the sake of it, and we are all trying to help the OP understand the issues he has ahead. 

Perhaps others with long term marina experiences will add a comment on the question on informal liveaboard policies, but it does seem as if a request to see a council tax or similar bill is not a common thing. Also, in his initial phone call to a potential marina,  the OP would have scoped out their attitude with a few carefully worded questions, and he would have ruled out any marinas that ask for this kind of thing.

There seem to be enough northern marinas that are affordable, and that do have the informal liveaboard policy, that it does sounds like he can be reasonably optimistic. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is from Park Farm Marina terms and conditions.

 

  1. The Marina is not an approved residential mooring. The planning conditions for the marina state that the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period. Owners are expected to comply with this condition.

 

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Another thing that is worth bearing in mind is that if there is a site or marina which has a mix of leisure and residential moorings you can get problems with mooring Nazis. 

 

There have been cases where people live on the residential moorings, pay their dues etc etc and when they see other people basically living on the cheaper moorings at the same site they get agitated and do complaints and try to enforce things. 

 

It is bound to happen. Worth being aware of. Probably not a common problem outside of popular areas. 

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2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

This is from Park Farm Marina terms and conditions.

 

  1. The Marina is not an approved residential mooring. The planning conditions for the marina state that the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period. Owners are expected to comply with this condition.

 

 

To be fair, I bet there is a similar statement (maybe with varying numbers of weeks), in every marina that has no formal liveaboard moorings. 

 

But two weeks sounds pretty draconian, and if its something they actually enforce, then that is worth knowing, because its one place where the OP needn't waste his time making a phone call. 

But anyway, I feel as if I'm assuming the role of spokesperson for the OP on this marina issue, which is clearly not fair to him- so I'll pipe down! 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

This is from Park Farm Marina terms and conditions.

 

  1. The Marina is not an approved residential mooring. The planning conditions for the marina state that the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period. Owners are expected to comply with this condition.

 

So every other weekend you take the boat a little way down the canal and overnight there, returning to the marina the next day. That way no stay on board within the marina exceeds 13 nights.

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The informative post by Alan - a few messages back - i noticed it mentioned amongst the wording for Residential - no liveaboards?  There is a lot of knowledge on this thread alone I need to take it let alone all the threads! which i need to take on board, i do have a few months to prepare before setting a boot onto the canalboat ( although coming weeks will be spending a couple nights on her ). 

 

So - i am easily confused ( and watching how to sink your narrowboat - simply because of a wet rope across the middle of the boat..is..worrying!..particularly as i will be on my own, navigating locks etc...although, again, the plan is to stick to one spot for time being ( but as others said, part the pleasure, and the point! of narrowboating is the wherever you lay your hat scenerio! ) .

 

So  if I am lucky enought to secure a Residential place....what is this about not really allowing stayonboards? Perhaps ive misread Alans post there, but seemed clear at the bottom of the post to be honest.

 

( more i read, more perhaps i do need to narrow the net and , although certaintly wanting to avoid Cov/Brum - perhaps bit further north than Leicester might be the spot for time being as others have mentioned on here )

Edited by Robby789
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3 minutes ago, Robby789 said:

So - i am easily confused ( and watching how to sink your narrowboat - simply because of a wet rope across the middle of the boat..is..worrying!..particularly as i will be on my own, navigating locks etc. 

Take care with some of those videos, the makers have about 12 months more experience as you, some less that that.

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3 hours ago, Robby789 said:

So  if I am lucky enought to secure a Residential place....

 

I see you're still going on about getting a residential mooring. Fine if you have the dosh to do things the most expensive way possible, and have endless time available waiting for one to come up. But earlier in the thread you commented about keeping things easy, in which case get 'under the radar' leisure mooring and live on it. The question to ask is "Will it be ok if I spend a lot of time on my boat even though I most definitely won't be living on it?" Start by looking around the marina itself and ask a few boaters this question first, before escalating to asking the office staff.... 

 

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It may be better not to ask the marina at all, at least not until you have spoken to other people there who seem to be living aboard in the marina, what the marina's attitude to living there is.

Having said that, many people do live aboard in marinas on leisure berths, and have no problems. Some marinas charge a “high usage fee,” for the privilege, and some do accept mail.

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What you need to grasp is that the majority of marinas do not/cannot offer residential moorings. If they did they would have planning issues and council tax complications.

 

However some marinas nevertheless do tolerate "live aboard" customers as long as they can plausibly tell the local planning department that they do not.

 

I have moored in three midland marinas, all had a no live aboard clause in the mooring contract. One strictly enforced this, both the others did not but they expected live aboards to keep their heads down. They want to be able to say to the authorities "he's living on his boat? I never knew that, how shocking, that is against our terms and conditions".

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We needed a residential mooring for a period when we knew we couldn't cc while I was working.

We phoned up the marina where we ended up and asked if they had residential moorings. No was the emphatic reply, but there are a lot of boaters living aboard. We did need to have our post directed to my husband's parents because they wouldn't take post but we spent a mutually beneficial 6 months there - us liveaboards provided security for them when they went home at 5pm, they gave us a safe place to moor. No frills, leccy hook up was limited to long termers - we were offered it just as we were about to leave. Most importantly there was a car park and a locked gate. That's all we needed at the time.

Edited by Ange
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14 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

As I said, I'm not trying to have a dig for the sake of it, and we are all trying to help the OP understand the issues he has ahead. 

Perhaps others with long term marina experiences will add a comment on the question on informal liveaboard policies, but it does seem as if a request to see a council tax or similar bill is not a common thing. Also, in his initial phone call to a potential marina,  the OP would have scoped out their attitude with a few carefully worded questions, and he would have ruled out any marinas that ask for this kind of thing.

There seem to be enough northern marinas that are affordable, and that do have the informal liveaboard policy, that it does sounds like he can be reasonably optimistic. 

 

 

 

 

 

I was once in a marina in the North East, in a line of boats that had people who used this marina as their base, these boats were apart from what I would term holiday boaters. I bought the boat in situ and had no idea of any planning restrictions, so I don't think the marina owner was concerned in any way. I used the address for banking and other things.

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8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I see you're still going on about getting a residential mooring. Fine if you have the dosh to do things the most expensive way possible, and have endless time available waiting for one to come up. But earlier in the thread you commented about keeping things easy, in which case get 'under the radar' leisure mooring and live on it. The question to ask is "Will it be ok if I spend a lot of time on my boat even though I most definitely won't be living on it?" Start by looking around the marina itself and ask a few boaters this question first, before escalating to asking the office staff.... 

 

The bit in bold definitely, pre owning a boat I wandered into a marina and asked the question 

"I'm looking for a residential mooring" 

The answer was emphatically nope, not us, not here, we don't do residential, despite the fact we could look out of the office and see the residential boats from the window.

I soon learnt, never mention the word residential 

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6 hours ago, frahkn said:

What you need to grasp is that the majority of marinas do not/cannot offer residential moorings. If they did they would have planning issues and council tax complications.

 

However some marinas nevertheless do tolerate "live aboard" customers as long as they can plausibly tell the local planning department that they do not.

 

 

^^^ This ^^^

 

This is perhaps the key to understanding what is going on, the bit that no-one has explained so far until frahkn did here. 

 

Its not that marinas don't want liveaboards, its that they often built their marinas with Planning Permission that made 'no residential' a condition of getting it. Local land dwellers often regard boat dwellers as 'ne'er do well' types they don't want around applying for PP with residential tends to get equated with applying for PP for a "traveller" camp. Consequently getting PP for your marina is WAY easier if you (as a marina builder) accept a 'no residential' clause in your PP.

 

So once built, the marina owners might be scared stiff of getting an enforcement notice if they have a liveaboard who makes a PITA of themselves, or they may be totally laissez faire about it and fill the place with liveaboards provided they can plausibly deny they have any, or something in between if challenged by a local council. 

 

Some marinas for example might want a copy of a Council Tax demand with your name on it as 'proof' you live somewhere other than on your boat. Then they can produce their copy of it to a council enforcement official if necessary which the official will find hard to argue against. All you have to do get a relative to agree to put you on their annual Occupier Return and Bob's your uncle! Both you and the marina have watertight proof you don't live aboard! Except you do. Arguably.

 

But when you think about it carefully, what does 'living aboard' really mean? It's very hard to define really... 

 

 

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As a suggestion I wouldn't think it the worst idea for someone returning from abroad to initially use their parents' address whether planning to rent a room somewhere or move onto the water. So long as it doesn't affect any potential reductions the parents may have on the council tax, there is the advantage of knowing that it will be useable for some time. It's easy to rent somewhere, then decide it's awful and have to move and go through the hassle of changing address with all the organisations we have to deal with in life.

 

Deliveries can now be made to drop-off/collection points in shops/garages etc, there are coal and gas boats go up and down many canals, yards and marinas can do pumpout for a fee, elsan and water points are part of your licence fee, find a mooring with them reasonably close, be close(ish) to shops and transport links, have a decent solar array and a mooring where it can be used, have a decent source of heat for the winter. The fact that the OP mentions that the boat has been blacked suggests that it's a narrowboat and not GRP so it should be possible to upgrade such a boat to at least an acceptable year-round abode.

 

Forget a true-residential mooring to start with from both an affordability and availability perspective. Do consider CaRT towpath long term leisure moorings. If you are a reasonably self-sufficient and resourceful person they can be found in some lovely locations and quite social with passing boats. You may also find yourself more inclined to go out a bit on the boat. Nothing to stop you going up the canal and mooring there for a few nights for a change of view, go in the opposite direction and do the same or spend most of your time on the home mooring. This isn't some very rare breed of person, it's how quite a few people live on their boats without being on a residential mooring. Some in the more informal and no-frills marinas, farm moorings etc, some on the towpath side on CaRT long term leisure and some continuously cruising (of which some will be truly doing it and some just doing the bare minimum shuffle or even less). It's the last group of the last category that CaRT are really bothered about, the people who want the benefit of a local area mooring without the expense of paying for one in any form.

 

I'm guessing that the posher the marina, the less chance of bending the rules - some of those restrictions mentioned seem like a licence to extract more money from frequent but genuine leisure boaters. With some of the more informal places I suspect the 'don't tell, don't ask' approach seems to work fine for plenty of folks.  

Edited by BilgePump
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To illustrate a bit, I have lived on a canal for 30+ years. Sometimes in a marina, some as a continuous cruiser, some on towpath moorings, some on farm moorings. I have never been able to find a true residential mooring and would not like to pay for one either.

I have never been asked by British Waterways or Canal and River Trust whether I live full time on the boat. Sleeping one night is technically living onboard. Nor have I ever had a marina ask me not to live onboard on a leisure mooring. Its a question of not standing out from the crowd that are doing exactly the same thing.

Ventnor Marina will not allow anyone to stay on their boat in the marina for more than 2 nights I think, may be 3. This is the extreme I have found.

Conversely I know of leisure only marinas where there are very few who are not full time residential, with 3 or 4 cars, vans, and workshops ashore, and running private businesses.

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