My Sailaway Decisions - Good & Bad

[rusty69]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

I hope that the limber holes got cleaned out. Not convinced sprayfoaming the base plate is a good idea, time will tell.

I'm not sure it's a good idea either. Good to see the pics though. 

 

Our boat has a partitioned bilge, and pretty sure it has no limber holes anyway. 

[Tracy D'arth]

20 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I'm not sure it's a good idea either. Good to see the pics though. 

 

Our boat has a partitioned bilge, and pretty sure it has no limber holes anyway. 

Really? Who's is the hull? Never seen one on a boat made after say 1970

[rusty69]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Really? Who's is the hull? Never seen one on a boat made after say 1970

Well, I'm not entirely sure, but the first partitioned section which is wholly accessible definetly hasn't got any. 

 

It does have a keelson though. 

 

It's an early 80s Les Allen. 

[Tracy D'arth]

Just now, rusty69 said:

Well, I'm not entirely sure, but the first partitioned section which is wholly accessible definetly hasn't got any. 

 

It does have a keelson though. 

 

It's an early 80s Les Allen. 

I thought you were going to say keelson, most with partitions had a keelson. Nice hull, a Les Allen, an old school builder which accounts for the lack of limber gaps.

I originally thought all hulls had gaps to avoid corner stress cracking but it seems not. I suppose it has 3" or even 4" angle iron cross ties too? Not the skinny 2" you get today.

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I thought you were going to say keelson, most with partitions had a keelson. Nice hull, a Les Allen, an old school builder which accounts for the lack of limber gaps.

I originally thought all hulls had gaps to avoid corner stress cracking but it seems not. I suppose it has 3" or even 4" angle iron cross ties too? Not the skinny 2" you get today.

When we first bought the thing, 24 years ago we lived in Ignorant bliss that the shower tray had been leaking into the bilge for sometime. It was fairly evident that the water wasn't finding its way further aft, and indeed there was no access through the floor to check. We ended up ripping out the entire aft section of flooring and replacing it. I'm pretty sure at the time I checked for limber holes, and there were none present. 

 

I suppose with the power of hindsight, it would have been a good time to add some, but I didn't. 

 

Not sure what size the angle iron is. Looks quite substantial though. 

[Tracy D'arth]

Sorry to hi-jack the thread.  The OP, system 4-50, makes interesting reading, more pictures?

[IanD]

Is ballast going to be put on top of the sprayfoam on the baseplate?

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I hope that the limber holes got cleaned out. Not convinced sprayfoaming the base plate is a good idea, time will tell.

Limber holes alone wouldn't be much use. You would need limber channels clear of foam along the inside of the chine angles. And presumably somewhere for the water to collect at the back end of the cabin bilge.

 

If you are going to insulate the floor, then it would seem preferable to do so above bilge water and ballast level. But it then gets rather complicated if you want to be able to lift floor panels. Maybe celotex/kingspan sheets glued to the underside of the floor panels and cut to a reasonably close fit around the floor bearers?

Edited February 9, 2023 by David Mack

[system 4-50]

9 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

We used to spray foam containers and they laid it on thick to end up with a fairly even 3" of foam. Some of that boat hull looks to have between nothing and 2" in places.

Nothings only occured in crevices.  Everywhere else is at least 1".  The pictures could be clearer.

[system 4-50]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

Is ballast going to be put on top of the sprayfoam on the baseplate?

 

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

 

 

That's a pretty wide bed and narrow walkway, especially if there's no floor-level plinth to let your feet stick under the edge (is there?) -- how wide is the bed and the walkway when the lining is in place?

 

Could be challenging to walk along, especially with the tumblehome above the gunwale... 😉

Edited February 9, 2023 by IanD

[system 4-50]

Edited February 9, 2023 by system 4-50
Bricks replaced by weights

[system 4-50]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's a pretty wide bed and narrow walkway, YES

especially if there's no floor-level plinth to let your feet stick under the edge (is there? NO

) -- how wide is the bed 1400mm as stated

and the walkway The minimum allowed for a BSS escape exit as per above

 when the lining lining, wot lining? 

is in place?

 

Could be challenging to walk along, did not find it so for normal build people.  Would not accept obese/size limiting people on board. 

 especially with the tumblehome above the gunwale…thought about it but decided to keep the tumblehome above the gunwhale .

 

[IanD]

 

1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

 

So the walkway is 0" wide then? 😉

[system 4-50]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

So the walkway is 0" wide then? 😉

0.000" to be precise.😄

9 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I hope that the limber holes got cleaned out. Not convinced sprayfoaming the base plate is a good idea, time will tell.

No they didn't.  What's a limber hole?

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

0.000" to be precise.😄

 

I don't know how deep your frames and lining are, IIRC on my boat the internal width below the gunwale after lining is about 6'1" (185cm). If yours is the same then a 140cm bed would leave a 45cm walkway at ground level, so about 35cm at the gunwale, so maybe 30cm at shoulder level depending on how much tumblehome your hull has. This probably means having to shuffle past the bed sideways, and with no space to get your feet/toes under the bed I suspect you'll have a tendency to fall forwards onto the bed, especially while passing curtains etc. If there's a quilt hanging over the mattress edge you'll have even less room, but at least you'll have something soft to fall onto... 😉

 

Did you actually try this out before committing to the layout?

 

Normally the bed would be a little bit narrower (e.g. 135cm i.e. a standard 4'6" double), and the frame underneath would be a few inches narrower still at floor level (e.g. 120cm/4') giving a decent-sized recess to get your feet under.

 

Or maybe your boat is a couple of inches wider internally than mine -- the frames do look lighter -- so a 140cm bed will give the same walkway as 135cm in mine. Still, a plinth/foot recess is a good idea, if it's not too late for you to put one in 🙂

 

BTW limber holes are gaps in the frames to let water drain back down the boat, usually done by stopping the frames short to leave a hole in the baseplate/hull corner -- like this...

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by IanD

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

I don't know how deep your frames and lining are, IIRC on my boat the internal width below the gunwale after lining is about 6'1" (185cm). If yours is the same then a 140cm bed would leave a 45cm walkway at ground level, so about 35cm at the gunwale, so maybe 30cm at shoulder level depending on how much tumblehome your hull has. This probably means having to shuffle past the bed sideways, and with no space to get your feet/toes under the bed I suspect you'll have a tendency to fall forwards onto the bed. If there's a quilt hanging over the edge you'll have even less room, but at least you'll have something soft to fall onto... 😉

 

Did you actually try this out before committing to the layout?

 

Normally the bed would be a little bit narrower (e.g. 135cm i.e. a standard 4'6" double), and the frame underneath would be a few inches narrower still at floor level (e.g. 120cm/4') giving a decent-sized recess to get your feet under.

 

Or maybe your boat is a couple of inches wider internally than mine -- the frames do look lighter -- so a 140cm bed will give the same walkway as 135cm in mine. Still, a plinth/foot recess is a good idea, if it's not too late for you to put one in 🙂

This blog/topic is about the sailaways decisions I made during the 11 years I had the boat before I sold it 18months ago.

The bed outer size was fixed by the water tanks it contained so no plinth/foot recess possible.  It would be nice to nip out and do some measurements to answer your interest but I don't know where the boat is.😁😀

My requirement for the passage was that it would be big enough for anybody to get through who could also get through the BSS required size escape exit at the bow, and apart from that, as easy to use as the space permitted.  In practice no guests had problems navigating the passage.  

"I don't know how deep your frames and lining are, IIRC on my boat the internal width below the gunwale after lining is about 6'1" (185cm)."  The width at floor level would be just over 6ft.  At gunwhale level it have been more.  Since it was never properly lined I'll ignore that bit.

"I suspect you'll have a tendency to fall forwards onto the bed."  Only after 2 glasses of red wine.

"Did you actually try this out before committing to the layout?"  Did I do it before I did it? No.  Did I research it carefully? Yes. Did it work ok? Yes.

"- the frames do look lighter —"  Nothing light about the framing, much stronger than I saw at *******'s. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by system 4-50

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

This blog/topic is about the sailaways decisions I made during the 11 years I had the boat before I sold it 18months ago.

The bed outer size was fixed by the water tanks it contained so no plinth/foot recess possible.  

It would be nice to nip out and do some measurements to answer your interest but I don't know where the boat is.

My requirement for the passage was that it would be big enough for anybody to get through who could also get the BSS required size escape exit at the bow, and apart from that, as easy to use as the space permitted.  In practice no guests had problems navigating the passage.  

"I don't know how deep your frames and lining are, IIRC on my boat the internal width below the gunwale after lining is about 6'1" (185cm)."  The width at floor level would be just over 6ft.  At gunwhale level it have been more.  Since it was never properly lined I'll ignore that bit.

"I suspect you'll have a tendency to fall forwards onto the bed."  Only after 2 glasses of red wine.

"Did you actually try this out before committing to the layout?"  Did I do it before I did it? No.  Did I research it carefully? Yes. Did it work ok? Yes.

"- the frames do look lighter —"  Nothing light about the framing, much stronger than I saw at *******'s. 

 

Glad to hear that it all actually worked out, I thought this was something you were still building now... 😉

 

I didn't say the frames were light, just that they were lighter than mine -- see photo with limber hole explanation...

Edited February 9, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

This blog/topic is about the sailaways decisions I made during the 11 years I had the boat before I sold it 18months ago.

The bed outer size was fixed by the water tanks it contained so no plinth/foot recess possible.  

It would be nice to nip out and do some measurements to answer your interest but I don't know where the boat is.

My requirement for the passage was that it would be big enough for anybody to get through who could also get the BSS required size escape exit at the bow, and apart from that, as easy to use as the space permitted.  In practice no guests had problems navigating the passage.  

"I don't know how deep your frames and lining are, IIRC on my boat the internal width below the gunwale after lining is about 6'1" (185cm)."  The width at floor level would be just over 6ft.  At gunwhale level it have been more.  Since it was never properly lined I'll ignore that bit.

"I suspect you'll have a tendency to fall forwards onto the bed."  Only after 2 glasses of red wine.

"Did you actually try this out before committing to the layout?"  Did I do it before I did it? No.  Did I research it carefully? Yes. Did it work ok? Yes.

"- the frames do look lighter —"  Nothing light about the framing, much stronger than I saw at *******'s. 

 

We once hired a boat with a bed similarly wide. We didnt find access past it was really any sort of issue.

 

Yes it was a bit tight but nothing too difficult and the additional comfort offered by the bed width more than compensated for it.

[David Mack]

40 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

We once hired a boat with a bed similarly wide. We didnt find access past it was really any sort of issue.

 

Yes it was a bit tight but nothing too difficult and the additional comfort offered by the bed width more than compensated for it.

Probably OK past a bed.

A different matter if its a passageway past a side bathroom!

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

see photo with limber hole explanation...

Ahh, I see.  I was confusing it with limbo, as in limbo dancing.

My boat had something like that which I blocked with sprayfoam:

 

[system 4-50]

Decision 041.  Kitchen Layout.  GOOD.

The layout was driven by the appliances it had to contain.  Fridge/Freezer [FF], cooker, storage, tumble dryer, sink, "draining board", washing machine [WMC], waste bin. Additionally the left corner by the door had to house wet coats and the right corner the electrical widgets.

I required the cooker to be a full size 60cm jobbie with four hob rings, grill, and double cooker, all gas.  I found one after some searching that said LPG conversion was available after purchase.  I bought it and had some fun getting it in the boat because my specification for the doorway "big enough to get standard 60cm appliances in" had been understood as "make the doorway 60cm".  They went in, none failed, but one had 0.0mm spare on either side.  I applied to the retailer for an LPG conversion kit, and got a stream of no answers, obfuscation, misleading replies, but no definitive yes we'll send it or no we won't.  After about 8 months IIRC of this shilly-shallying it dawned on me to approach the manufacturer.  This was much better, only taking about 6? weeks, and only requiring me to sign my soul away, declare them totally free of responsibility for any defect or result, and accept responsibility for the National Debt.  Installing the jets was fiddly, getting to the back of the oven at my age is not easy, but doable, as was adjusting the low setting.  I don't think I ever got around to making the ignition sparker work for the grill.  It all worked beautifully! Hot food easily prepared! Joy! I'll try to find a map of where things were.

On the left  of the cooker was a set of Ikea drawers, providing a barrier between the heat of the cooker and the "cold" of the FF.

The FF was a £4digits expensive Dometic one with 150L IIRC and a detachable freezing compartment.  I had great trouble buying it from a well-known chandlery but that is too long a story.  It worked well but the smell that is supposed to burn off in 24hrs took more like 2 weeks.  It was quite tall and therefore stood away from the wall which was ok I suppose as it kept the burner away from the cabin wall, but it looked a bit odd.  If the regulator was set above zero on the 1 - 12? scale it froze everything in the fridge solid.  I put it on an open plinth so that air could pass directly under it and up the back.  The installation instructions specifically said don't put it on a plinth but without any explanation so I ignored it.  I do not think the instructions covered the sort of installation I was doing.  One problem I had was trying to put something in place that would prevent my young granddaughters standing on the dinette and posting Lego or something more flamable down the back of the FF.  Anything solid had to not block ventilation.  One nonsense was the instructions required 2" to be left clear on either side of the FF, without explanation.  They did not get hot or even warm.  With my arrangement there was no lack of air.

On the other side of the cooker was my gas tumble dryer which I've ranted about before so 'nuff said.

The coat cupboard never got further than a rod with coat hangers on it.

I'll cover the electrics corner later.

The sink I've referred to already.  I went out of my to have a direct, wide waste pipe to the hull fitting with no U bend, not going straight out but in a sidways curve as I thought that would be easier to fit.  I wish the sink had an overflow though I had no accidents.

I'll see if I can find some pics that I'm not ashamed of.

[system 4-50]

The Sink.  (The WMC is sticking out because I was doing some work behind it.)

My beautiful cooker.

[Puffling]

Laboratory sink looks interesting, rather stylish. A more compact alternative to the Belfast or Butler sinks you see in boat gallies sometimes. Not having an overflow would trouble me.

Would you choose the same again?

[system 4-50]

Decision 042.  Ventilation.  ????

The choice of rooftop ventilation devices seemed fairly limited.  

1.  The standard metal mushroom, specially designed to catch ropes and drip condensation inside.  Uncontrollable.

2. The UFO, never catches ropes, with a plastic inside that is less prone to condensation drips.  Comes in controllable and uncontrollable forms.

3.  Houdini Hatches and similar. 

I plumped for the Ventair UFOs.  I intended to make them all controllable but I never got around to it [INGATI].  Obviously if I had, then I would have been at risk if I had all 4 gas hob rings, the grill, the 2 ovens, the FF, the Morco and the stove all on for hours at the same time, but the BSS saved me from this dire fate.

Fitting the Ventair was an absolute pain & I have ranted on about it before and I shall do so again now.  It needed screw holes in the roof for the base plastic colar, more for the plastic top bit, and yet more for the steel cover.  With proper design it could have been fitted with NONE of these screws, just a thread on the base collar and a plastic collar nut inside.  Why haven't I designed one?  I'm working on it but I haven't got a 3D printer (yet).

I also fitted a bought-in aluminium louvre panel with the intention of providing a wooden or plastic down channel to floor level to satisfy the BSS requirement for low-level ventilation.  This was a disaster.  It leaked rainwater like a sieve.  I eventually blanked it off but will more time and tooling I would have made one myself that did not.