These new log burner rules.......

[magnetman]

Expensive people in houses will just buy Defra appliances and burn costly kiln dried firewood on them.

 

But yes the days of  burning solid things on boats are probably numbered. I imagine clean air zones will be extended to cover the whole country after a while.

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Once the posh twats can’t use their solid fuel stoves the stink of dirty boaters will stand out a mile, they’ll come after then and fine them £1000. They can try a flowery defence if they like but I predict it will fall on its arse.

Which is why I am converting my Rayburn to a pressure jet system, solid fuel is expensive now kerosene less so, whilst the solid fuel is dirty it is on for 24 hours so provides constant heat while I am not there! That's the problem I am always out doing something so burning fuel and creating pollution for nothing goes against my ethos 

[magnetman]

I'll always have wood/coal burners on my boats. I can't tolerate the idea that a shortage of a commercially produced product such as oil could cause me to become very cold.

 

Always basically useful to be able to use wood for this. Tin hat I suppose.

 

 

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I'll always have wood/coal burners on my boats. I can't tolerate the idea that a shortage of a commercially produced product such as oil could cause me to become very cold.

 

Always basically useful to be able to use wood for this. Tin hat I suppose.

 

 

Until you can't, I will keep my wood burner in the lounge/bedroom for the moment as I have lots of well seasoned wood, but I will keep my bubble stove ready for when we arnt allowed wood burners anymore 

[magnetman]

I'll always burn wood. It isn't plausible for burning wood to be banned. Too many people will still be doing it.

 

It is a basic age old way of heating spaces. People won't give this up easily.

 

 

 

 

I don't use wood in the inner city boat because of difficulties obtaining it but in the sticks at the country estate thats the only way to go.

 

I do think however that smoke control areas will probably cover the whole country before long as it seems to be a logical outcome.

 

 

edit as another double post for some reason.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by magnetman

[nairb123]

I have to say in my case I have a defra stove that WAS approved by the council, and it was hetas installed.  BUT I dont have any approved wood or smokeless fuel. 

SO I am going to get done over if they demand to see the wood supply(a whole shed full of dried wood).

 

There it is................. no amount of protesting about "how much smoke and for how long".  They need to make money, and enforcing the "rules" will make them a few quid.  They will be able to shout "eco" and be smug.

 

Also, having a stove is a bit like having a narrow boat.  Its wot the rich have, and It's good to kick them.  I know in my area there are several "do gooders" that will take much delight in chasing down the "smoke polluters".  It's like it everywhere.

 

I agree that over time the whole country will become a "Smokeless zone"  At the moment my boat is outside a smokeless zone, so it's difficult to see any action being taken for a while.  But my house is now in the cross-hairs of some council official.  And the person who reported me will be taking daily walks pass my house, waiting for the next infringement.

[IanD]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

Expensive people in houses will just buy Defra appliances and burn costly kiln dried firewood on them.

 

But yes the days of  burning solid things on boats are probably numbered. I imagine clean air zones will be extended to cover the whole country after a while.

 

You obviously haven't been following the discussion about PM2.5 pollution which is what started this whole thread... 🙂

 

A DEFRA-approved stove burning kiln-dried firewood still emits about 10x the PM2.5 pollution of smokeless fuel; any woodburner ban will apply to the posh people in flats in Islington just as much as to the boaters moored outside their windows.

 

I gave figures for wood, coal and smokeless fuel earlier, I'm not going to find them again; wood and coal will very likely be banned soon in urban areas where the PM2.5 danger is greatest, smokeless fuel is much less harmful so will be allowed for a lot longer.

Edited March 9, 2023 by IanD

[nairb123]

It would seem that after all the interesting discussions in this forum/thread about the levels of smoke and for how long etc what it actually comes down to is.........

If you have a defra (or some approved) stove, and it's correctly installed and are burning an approved fuel (https://smokecontrol.defra.gov.uk/fuels.php?country=england ) then, when the council comes to check your house for smoke infringement you are in a better situation.  Its a bit like the tax man - if you have the right bit of paper, then they move on to the easier target - for now.

 

 

 

[peterboat]

On 09/03/2023 at 16:16, IanD said:

 

You obviously haven't been following the discussion about PM2.5 pollution which is what started this whole thread... 🙂

 

A DEFRA-approved stove burning kiln-dried firewood still emits about 10x the PM2.5 pollution of smokeless fuel; any woodburner ban will apply to the posh people in flats in Islington just as much as to the boaters moored outside their windows.

 

I gave figures for wood, coal and smokeless fuel earlier, I'm not going to find them again; wood and coal will very likely be banned soon in urban areas where the PM2.5 danger is greatest, smokeless fuel is much less harmful so will be allowed for a lot longer.

Hence my conversion of my Rayburn to a pressure jet system, that and finding quality anthracite impossible to buy

On 09/03/2023 at 15:22, nairb123 said:

I have to say in my case I have a defra stove that WAS approved by the council, and it was hetas installed.  BUT I dont have any approved wood or smokeless fuel. 

SO I am going to get done over if they demand to see the wood supply(a whole shed full of dried wood).

 

There it is................. no amount of protesting about "how much smoke and for how long".  They need to make money, and enforcing the "rules" will make them a few quid.  They will be able to shout "eco" and be smug.

 

Also, having a stove is a bit like having a narrow boat.  Its wot the rich have, and It's good to kick them.  I know in my area there are several "do gooders" that will take much delight in chasing down the "smoke polluters".  It's like it everywhere.

 

I agree that over time the whole country will become a "Smokeless zone"  At the moment my boat is outside a smokeless zone, so it's difficult to see any action being taken for a while.  But my house is now in the cross-hairs of some council official.  And the person who reported me will be taking daily walks pass my house, waiting for the next infringement.

Buy some approved fuel and keep it in the house for when he comes a knocking!

[magnetman]

43 minutes ago, nairb123 said:

It would seem that after all the interesting discussions in this forum/thread about the levels of smoke and for how long etc what it actually comes down to is.........

If you have a defra (or some approved) stove, and it's correctly installed and are burning an approved fuel (https://smokecontrol.defra.gov.uk/fuels.php?country=england ) then, when the council comes to check your house for smoke infringement you are in a better situation.  Its a bit like the tax man - if you have the right bit of paper, then they move on to the easier target - for now.

 

 

 

 

This is an interesting situation.

 

How would the council come and check your house? Would they be allowed to gain entry and search for a non compliant fire? 

 

 

 

 

 

Entrance to private dwelling just based on a neighbouring smoke nazi reporting something ? 

 

Hmm. 

 

[IanD]

50 minutes ago, nairb123 said:

It would seem that after all the interesting discussions in this forum/thread about the levels of smoke and for how long etc what it actually comes down to is.........

If you have a defra (or some approved) stove, and it's correctly installed and are burning an approved fuel (https://smokecontrol.defra.gov.uk/fuels.php?country=england ) then, when the council comes to check your house for smoke infringement you are in a better situation.  Its a bit like the tax man - if you have the right bit of paper, then they move on to the easier target - for now.

 

 

And that is the rule for now, but it won't be in future if the government brings in a ban on woodburners in urban areas, which seems likely -- having a DEFRA-approved stove and burning kiln-dried wood won't get round this, because even these emit high levels of PM2.5 particulates.

Edited March 10, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

Just now, IanD said:

 

And that is the rule for now, but it won't be in future if the government brings in a ban on woodburners in urban areas, which seems likely -- having a DEFRA-approved stove and burning kiln-dried wood wont get round this, because even those mean high levels of PM2.5 emissions.

 

But surely the ministers and lords all have nice houses in the city with wood burners. They are hardly likely to want to give up this pleasant luxury !

[IanD]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

 

But surely the ministers and lords all have nice houses in the city with wood burners. They are hardly likely to want to give up this pleasant luxury !

 

They won't have a choice, they're exactly the kind of "urban lifestyle woodburners" that are making the problem worse -- and are likely to be banned.

[magnetman]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

They won't have a choice, they're exactly the kind of "urban lifestyle woodburners" that are making the problem worse -- and are likely to be banned.

Who is going to form the policies? 

 

I always thought legislation had to go through elected representatives. 

 

Don't tell me the Labour MPs don't have nice houses in London with wood burners because I won't believe you. 

[nairb123]

For me, it's all about the cost.  At the moment, I get all my wood for FREE.  So to change to a gov approved source of fuel will cost about £150 quid a month (estimated at the moment).  That might be almost the same as having the central heating on.  I will need to see this working to know.

If cost is not an issue, MP's etc, then fitting the correct stove and using approved fuel is a NON issue.

 

A narrow boat on the other hand has other more difficult problems.  Defra approved stove on a boat???.  Anyway, at the moment it's the house that's in the firing line

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, nairb123 said:

For me, it's all about the cost.  At the moment, I get all my wood for FREE.  So to change to a gov approved source of fuel will cost about £150 quid a month (estimated at the moment).  That might be almost the same as having the central heating on.  I will need to see this working to know.

If cost is not an issue, MP's etc, then fitting the correct stove and using approved fuel is a NON issue.

 

A narrow boat on the other hand has other more difficult problems.  Defra approved stove on a boat???.  Anyway, at the moment it's the house that's in the firing line

 

I'd suggest there is no problem for boaters who burn anything at all in a reasonable manner, avoiding annoying people. 

 

For those who shove it in the face of the local council saying "this is allowed under the law" relying on some small print, trouble awaits, I  predict. 

 

As always the "I know my rights" brigade mess it up for the quiet and reasonable masses. 

 

 

[peterboat]

16 minutes ago, nairb123 said:

For me, it's all about the cost.  At the moment, I get all my wood for FREE.  So to change to a gov approved source of fuel will cost about £150 quid a month (estimated at the moment).  That might be almost the same as having the central heating on.  I will need to see this working to know.

If cost is not an issue, MP's etc, then fitting the correct stove and using approved fuel is a NON issue.

 

A narrow boat on the other hand has other more difficult problems.  Defra approved stove on a boat???.  Anyway, at the moment it's the house that's in the firing line

I have a Defra approved stove in my boat whether it works with a short flu who knows?

[magnetman]

As with most things it comes down to not winding other people up. 

 

Interesting one to watch. I won't be getting rid of the fires but the inner city boat does usually burn less smoke authorised fuels although guilty of putting a little bit of coal on for the lovely aroma and wood is always nice. 

 

The country estate boat which is not in a smoke control area is, of course, entirely heated by wood. 

 

Never getting rid of the fires. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I have a Defra approved stove in my boat whether it works with a short flu who knows?

 

They work as a stove but to meet the Defra exemption they have to be installed in accordance with the manufacturers instructions. Normally they stipulate flue type and length (our Charnwood's did). If they do not meet the spec. then they technically are not Defra exempt. (Is how our installer explained it to me).

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by M_JG

[magnetman]

One understands that things do change over the yars but I am unable to validate the possibility that burning solid fuels could at some stage become illegal. 

 

I don't think this will happen although there will of course be some tweaking as has already been seen. 

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

One understands that things do change over the yars but I am unable to validate the possibility that burning solid fuels could at some stage become illegal. 

 

I don't think this will happen although there will of course be some tweaking as has already been seen. 

Yup it will become even more useless than the stuff that we currently have to burn

[magnetman]

I suppose one could put some toxins in the ash and attempt to eradicate persistent users that way. 

 

Some of the stuff that passes for authorised fuel is pretty dodgy. 

 

 

Does the environmental cost of manufacturing high temperature high pressure briquetted fuels get looked at? The binder seems to sometimes be molasses. Food product? 

Fuel name	Brazier briquettes
Manufacturer	Coal Products Limited at Immingham Briquetting Works, Immingham, North East Lincolnshire
(a)	comprise anthracite (as to approximately 60 to 80% of the total weight), petroleum coke (as to approximately 10 to 30% of the total weight) and a molasses and phosphoric acid binder (as to the remaining weight)

 

So presumably using the minimum published "approximately" figures this could be 30% filler. 

 

I know its rubbish but it is popular rubbish. 

 

data from defra authorised fuels list. 

 

[Ronaldo47]

My understanding is that the legal requirement for wood to be (kiln-) dried to a minimim percentage moisture content, only applies to the condition it must be in at the point of retail sale.

 

The law does not say anything about what the moisture content should be subsequently, nor does minimum moisture content apply to wood that, for example, you have harvested from trees you have grown yourself, and so has not been sold.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Will/Am I not allowed to send smoke signals?

I don’t have a mobile phone or any WiFi or gadgets and only communicate with a smoke signal, especially in an emergency.

Will it still be ok?

[magnetman]

Do you not carry a small mirror?