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These new log burner rules.......


nairb123

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Give over

 

 

I have.

 

I find you get to a certain point in 'discussion' with Mr D beyond which there is no point in continuing further. Particularly when he manipulates the English language to bolster his point like hes just done. And ironically something he calls out when others do it.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tonka said:

but a whole lot of british industry is lost as we make a lot of stoves in this country

 

Sadly this is correct. Our stove is British made on the Isle of White by Charnwood. We specifically chose a stove made in the UK rather than China.

 

But hopefully any jobs lost will be replaced in alternate greener products.

 

If I was making tradtional stoves I would be investigating how to make good quality realistic looking flame electric effect fires utilising the existing stove carcases I already made and start selling them along aside existing products.

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I'll just pull out a couple of quotes from the article to show the scale of the problem, for those who haven't read it -- and it might have come from the sandal-wearing Grauniad, but the facts are from our very own government, who can hardly be accused of being biased in favour of protecting the environment... 😉

 

"The dangers posed by wood burners in urban areas have become increasingly clear in recent years. Wood burners emit more particle pollution than traffic in the UK, according to government data, and this results in almost £1bn in health costs a year. Wood burning is responsible for nearly half the cancer risk caused by urban air pollution.

 

Even government approved “eco” wood burners produce 450 times more pollution than gas heating, according to a report by the chief medical officer for England. Small particle pollution was the most dangerous to health and that produced by wood burning increased by more than a third from 2010 to 2020, the report said, adding that the vast majority of the 1.5m households that burn wood did so for aesthetic reasons."

 

Regardless of exactly what gets banned when, it's almost certain that urban boat dwellers will be hit hard -- and unless a way can be found to distinguish between them and boats out in the sticks (difficult given that they can move...) this is likely to hit all boats... 😞

Edited by IanD
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5 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Put another log on the fire while you still can and chill out you guys.

 

Funny enough I just have.

 

Well Mrs M_JG did..

 

 

Screenshot_20230208-193213_Photos.jpg

Edited by M_JG
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6 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Put another log on the fire while you still can and chill out you guys.

 

If all boaters with woodburners just chill out and ignore this and don't try and raise the issue with the people making the rules, the easiest and therefore most likely outcome is that woodburning stoves will be banned on boats -- one way or another, sooner or later.

 

Then they can chill out, because they won't have any heating... 😉

Edited by IanD
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4 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'll just pull out a couple of quotes from the article to show the scale of the problem, for those who haven't read it -- and it might have come from the sandal-wearing Grauniad, but the facts are from our very own government, who can hardly be accused of being biased in favour of protecting the environment... 😉

 

"The dangers posed by wood burners in urban areas have become increasingly clear in recent years. Wood burners emit more particle pollution than traffic in the UK, according to government data, and this results in almost £1bn in health costs a year. Wood burning is responsible for nearly half the cancer risk caused by urban air pollution.

 

Even government approved “eco” wood burners produce 450 times more pollution than gas heating, according to a report by the chief medical officer for England. Small particle pollution was the most dangerous to health and that produced by wood burning increased by more than a third from 2010 to 2020, the report said, adding that the vast majority of the 1.5m households that burn wood did so for aesthetic reasons."

 

Regardless of exactly what gets banned when, it's almost certain that urban boat dwellers will be hit hard -- and unless a way can be found to distinguish between them and boats out in the sticks (difficult given that they can move...) this is likely to hit all boats... 😞

I am not disputing what you are saying but when you drive along some motorways why is it you will see housing estates being built right next to the motorway

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4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I am not disputing what you are saying but when you drive along some motorways why is it you will see housing estates being built right next to the motorway

 

Because that's where cheap land is available?

 

Just because PM2.5 pollution from cars is also a problem doesn't mean the (larger) PM2.5 pollution from woodburners can use this as an excuse to do nothing -- and from the government's point of view, banning woodburners would give a big reduction in pollution at the cost of some inconvenience to less than 5% of households, far easier and cheaper than reducing PM2.5 pollution from transport.

Edited by IanD
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7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Even government approved “eco” wood burners produce 450 times more pollution than gas heating, according to a report by the chief medical officer for England.

 

So that sounds to me like  load of unsupportable woolly-minded borrocks. 

 

Just how much 'pollution" does "gas heating" produce? I'd love a nice easy, well-defined number, so we can compare it with the "eco" wood burners.

 

 

Are we counting just the PM2.5 from gas boilers? Not many of those I bet.

 

Or are we adding in the Nox, CO and CO2 etc? And including live fuel effect gas fires? And water heaters? How about those massive LPG burners the white line road painters use? They are all "gas heating" I'd say...

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

If all boaters with woodburners just chill out and ignore this and don't try and raise the issue with the people making the rules, the easiest and therefore most likely outcome is that woodburning stoves will be banned on boats -- one way or another, sooner or later.

 

Then they can chill out, because they won't have any heating... 😉

Getting rather hot here, need to have cold beer to cool off. 🤪

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9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

So that sounds to me like  load of unsupportable woolly-minded borrocks. 

 

Just how much 'pollution" does "gas heating" produce? I'd love a nice easy, well-defined number, so we can compare it with the "eco" wood burners.

 

Are we counting just the PM2.5 from gas boilers? Not many of those I bet.

 

Or are we adding in the Nox, CO and CO2 etc? And including live fuel effect gas fires? And water heaters? How about those massive LPG burners the white line road painters use? They are all "gas heating" I'd say...

 

 

Or you could go and read the report, which covers all the sources of PM2.5 pollution -- which is what all this fuss (and the article) is about, not CO2 emissions, because it's been found in recent years that it's *very* bad for people. Which is almost word-for-word what the article says... 😉

 

Gas heating/boilers/whatever emit almost no PM2.5, because burning gas doesn't make any particulates. It emits a lot of CO2 but that's a separate problem.

Edited by IanD
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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Or you could go and read the report, which covers all the sources of PM2.5 pollution -- which is what all this fuss (and the article) is about, not CO2 emissions, because it's been found in recent years that it's *very* bad for people. Which is almost word-for-word what the article says... 😉

 

Gas heating/boilers/whatever emit almost no PM2.5, because burning gas doesn't make any particulates. It emits a lot of CO2 but that's a separate problem.

 

My point exactly.

 

Comparing wood burners with gas boilers is invalid. 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

My point exactly.

 

Comparing wood burners with gas boilers is invalid. 

 

 

Huh? Surely comparing the PM2.5 emissions of woodburners with the most common form of heating today -- gas boilers -- is perfectly valid, otherwise what else would you compare them to?

 

It's saying that for this source of emissions gas boilers are very clean and woodburners are very dirty, which is surely the whole reason for banning them in urban areas?

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On 05/02/2023 at 19:19, magnetman said:

 

It is interesting to note that local authorities can not enforce against the smoke that is created when the fire is started up. 

 

I'm not sure how one could prove when a fire is being started up without having some sort of data logging thermometer in it. 

 

 

 

The boat's cold inside?

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4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

So it could appear to be that the government has not learnt from making diesel cars advantages for taxes and then about turn. 

The government are giving you payments to get Biomass boilers and then they will ban them

 

It is hard isnt it, to not take such a cynical standpoint?

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16 minutes ago, Tonka said:

So it could appear to be that the government has not learnt from making diesel cars advantages for taxes and then about turn. 

The government are giving you payments to get Biomass boilers and then they will ban them

Surely that depends whether biomass-pellet-fueled boilers emit as much PM2.5 as woodburners?

 

Since they haven't come up anywhere in the discussions or articles my suspicion is that they're a lot cleaner, but some actual facts would be useful... 😉

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4 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

Forcing people to remove existing stoves (step 3) will require a grant scheme.

 

4 hours ago, IanD said:

Why?

 

It didn't happen when smokeless zones forced people to stop using open fires and switch to gas/oil CH...

Grants of at least 70% were available for private dwellings.  And, in fact, still are albeit only for "old private dwellings" as defined.

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15 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

Grants of at least 70% were available for private dwellings.  And, in fact, still are albeit only for "old private dwellings" as defined.

 

I had a vague recollection of the same but didnt think I could prove it to the forensic level of evidence required by Mr D. So I didn't bother.

 

I hope you can quote it all chapter and verse....🤣🤣

Edited by M_JG
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9 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

Grants of at least 70% were available for private dwellings.  And, in fact, still are albeit only for "old private dwellings" as defined.

That's interesting, because AFAIK my parents got no such grant when they installed gas CH in place of an open fire with back boiler, they paid the entire cost. When were these grants available, and what were the conditions?

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