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These new log burner rules.......


nairb123

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What pressure is the gas in a Calor cylinder ?

 

 

*Way* lower than in a hydrogen cylinder, typically 100-200psi maximum -- to store any usable amount of hydrogen in a sensible volume for applications like heating and transport it's stored at very high pressure, typically 5000 or 10000psi, so 50x higher.

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49 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Hydrogen is very expensive and is already available in similar sized bottles but you can only buy it from BOC at just one depot in the whole country.

If it leaks it releases a lot of co2 to the atmosphere and it's production ( currently ) uses a lot of fossil fuels. 

Also 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/27/hydrogen-is-unsuitable-for-home-heating-review-concludes

Exactly, only I think 3% of hydrogen is made cleanly the rest is from fossil fuels, which is why the fossil fuels companies are pushing it so much! Fortunately failing but not in the EU, they are gullible enough to believe or on the pay packets of fossil fuels companies 

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What pressure is the gas in a Calor cylinder ?

 

What Ian says its enough to keep it liquid, hydrogen is a different kettle of fish

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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

*Way* lower than in a hydrogen cylinder, typically 100-200psi maximum -- to store any usable amount of hydrogen in a sensible volume for applications like heating and transport it's stored at very high pressure, typically 5000 or 10000psi, so 50x higher.

 

Thanks - I couldn't find it.

 

My diving cylinders (both Aluminium & Steel) are filled to either 232 bar (3364psi) or 300 bar (4351psi) so I'd have thought that 5000psi would not be difficult to achieve - Maybe its just the 'corrosive nature' (embrittlement) of Hydrogen on the steel that causes problems - but - it does not have the same effect on Aluminium.

 

Hydrogen embrittles a variety of metals including steel, aluminium (at high temperatures only, and titanium. Austempered iron is also susceptible, though austempered steel (and possibly other austempered metals) displays increased resistance to hydrogen embrittlement. NASA has reviewed which metals are susceptible to embrittlement and which only prone to hot hydrogen attack: nickel alloys, austenitic stainless steels, aluminium and alloys, copper (including alloys, e.g. beryllium copper). 

 

Ambat, Rajan; Dwarakadasa (February 1996). "Effect of Hydrogen in aluminium and aluminium alloys: A review"

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24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Thanks - I couldn't find it.

 

My diving cylinders (both Aluminium & Steel) are filled to either 232 bar (3364psi) or 300 bar (4351psi) so I'd have thought that 5000psi would not be difficult to achieve - Maybe its just the 'corrosive nature' (embrittlement) of Hydrogen on the steel that causes problems - but - it does not have the same effect on Aluminium.

 

Hydrogen embrittles a variety of metals including steel, aluminium (at high temperatures only, and titanium. Austempered iron is also susceptible, though austempered steel (and possibly other austempered metals) displays increased resistance to hydrogen embrittlement. NASA has reviewed which metals are susceptible to embrittlement and which only prone to hot hydrogen attack: nickel alloys, austenitic stainless steels, aluminium and alloys, copper (including alloys, e.g. beryllium copper). 

 

Ambat, Rajan; Dwarakadasa (February 1996). "Effect of Hydrogen in aluminium and aluminium alloys: A review"

The 10000 psi is to get a useful amount of hydrogen Alan of course it comes at a cost

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21 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The 10000 psi is to get a useful amount of hydrogen Alan of course it comes at a cost

And weight -- a 700 bar cylinder needs walls more than twice as thick (and heavy) as a 300bar one. Plus the fittings are much h more robust and expensive than Calor ones. And I expect that if you're storing flammable gas at 10000psi regular testing and certification is needed, more cost and hassle...

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On 03/02/2023 at 12:30, nairb123 said:

No.  But why not convert to hydrogen.  I'm sure it will be available in 13 kg bottles.  No fumes, and if a leak just floats out of the top of the boat.

In the meant time, I do still have a couple of old motorcycle tyres that need recycling if you run out of wood.

 

With careful manipulation of the valves on the bottles it should be possible to bypass any locks on the system... 😂

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21 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

 

Also from a personal perspective although we all have a responsibility not to pollute our environment, I've already offset my environmental footprint by not reproducing, so I think it's up to those who've exponentially increased their environmental impact by having kids to be more responsible than those who haven't.

Me2.

UK population has doubled and maybe tripled in my lifetime. 

I entered the national workforce, that is to say my pay exceeded my pocket money (aged twelve).

When at College, I worked weekends and Wednesday afternoons a week to buy clothes, books, and run a car.

So by the time I was twenty seven I had bought and paid for my first house.

Things have changed, but things do change.

I had a chap came to me for a job once, he was a pleasant enough person, but he had produced four children, and had no work skills, as far as I could see he had never had a job. 

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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People put stoves on boats which are too large. The best approach is to put a stove in there which for all intents and purposes seems too small. A hot fire is what is needed. Ok so the priority is for the boat cabin to be warm and comfortable in any conditions but at the end of the day in terms of emissions from the flue the top priority is for the fire itself to be hot while the interior of the boat remains comfortable. 

For this you need an undersized stove. 

 

Otherwise it will be burning inefficiently almost all of the time with the dirty emissions being the result. 

 

There is no use making the fire box smaller in a big stove because the stove will still be inefficient. 

 

The whole lot needs to be really hot. Fire box and flue pipe. Not red hot but very very hot. 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

People put stoves on boats which are too large. The best approach is to put a stove in there which for all intents and purposes seems too small. A hot fire is what is needed. Ok so the priority is for the boat cabin to be warm and comfortable in any conditions but at the end of the day in terms of emissions from the flue the top priority is for the fire itself to be hot while the interior of the boat remains comfortable. 

For this you need an undersized stove. 

 

Otherwise it will be burning inefficiently almost all of the time with the dirty emissions being the result. 

 

There is no use making the fire box smaller in a big stove because the stove will still be inefficient. 

 

The whole lot needs to be really hot. Fire box and flue pipe. Not red hot but very very hot. 

 

 

Didn't you say all that yesterday?

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Obviously the small fire has to be well designed. One of the things which surprised me is that a fire made of 5mm steel with no fire bricks and a grate stays in overnight on smokes less coal no problem at all. Very warm actually. 

 

You can't go too small but things like Squirrel type stoves will never get up to their efficient operation temperatures in a canal boat. It won't happen. 

Having a back boiler can be a fed herring situation because it draws heat from the firebox itself and reduces the efficiency of the burn process. 

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Yeah, our squirrel is usually on low most of the time. The flue is rarely hot, with all the associated problems that brings. I would be happy to install one of your type stoves in our boat if you would care to supply so I can do a comparison. We already have an existing free collar in the roof. Let me know when you want to come and install it.

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The one I have was made by someone else with input from me. He did not want to do any more plus it would probably be about a grand retail price so not really going to have much of a market. 

 

These days I don't think many fires are going to turn up which are suitable for canal boats in an emissions sense. The market is too small and the cost of getting defra approval is going to be huge. 

 

Not worth it, sadly. 

 

Another issue is choice supportive bias. I am liable to think it is a whole lot better than it is in reality. 

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