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Webasto and Calorifier sizing


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1 minute ago, Colin Brendan said:

And so it goes on - this is literally an ABC in how to bully someone

 

 

Just ignore him.

 

He engages in the very behaviour that he criticises others for.

 

There's a word for it.

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60 litres is probably the right size. 

 

I do sometimes wonder if one could run a wet diesel heater direct. What you could do is use no coolant (antifreeze). Fill the system up each time you want to use it and circulate your fresh shower water through the heater and onwards to a storage container like a beer keg for example. 

 

That way you would get hot water really quickly. The system would not contain any water when not in use which would take out the potential freezing problem. 

 

It would take some doing but it would be fast hot water. 

You would need thermostatic control on the beer keg and the heater would have to be turned off quite soon after starting but at least it would not end up ticking over and sooting up. 

 

They have self cleaning shutdown procedures. 

 

This would take the unit out of use as a central heating system although with the right valves you could probably set it up before winter to work as heating and use in summer as a direct washing water heater. 

Edited by magnetman
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Just now, M_JG said:

 

Just ignore him.

 

He engages in the very behaviour that he criticises others for.

 

There's a word for it.

I normally do. I guess I've only really taken this one up because it was such an uncontroversial question - and there seemed no need for any of this - but as you say - probably better to ignore.

 

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

60 litres is probably the right size. 

 

I do sometimes wonder if one could run a wet diesel heater direct. What you could do is use no coolant (antifreeze). Fill the system up each time you want to use it and circulate your fresh shower water through the heater and onwards to a storage container like a beer keg for example. 

 

That way you would get hot water really quickly. The system would not contain any water when not in use which would take out the potential freezing problem. 

 

It would take some doing but it would be fast hot water. 

You would need thermostatic control on the beer keg and the heater would have to be turned off quite soon after starting but at least it would not end up ticking over and sooting up. 

 

They have self cleaning shutdown procedures. 

 

This would take the unit out of use as a central heating system although with the right valves you could probably set it up before winter to work as heating and use in summer as a direct washing water heater. 

Thanks - seems like the consensus is 60 litres and I'll see if I can find one with an effective coil (I'm sure not all coils are equal)

 

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16 minutes ago, Colin Brendan said:

I normally do. I guess I've only really taken this one up because it was such an uncontroversial question - and there seemed no need for any of this - but as you say - probably better to ignore.

 

Thanks - seems like the consensus is 60 litres and I'll see if I can find one with an effective coil (I'm sure not all coils are equal)

 

 Correct, I think some are thin wall and crimped for greater surface area. Seeing how copper work hardens, I think I would prefer a copper tube with decent wall thickness for longevity. I think some may be finned.

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On 27/01/2023 at 23:01, Colin Brendan said:

I'm sorry - I don't understand what you mean by 'this assumes you go boating'? Could you explain?

Which I did

 

On 29/01/2023 at 19:25, Colin Brendan said:

I live on the boat so moving it every day of the year would be a bit impractical tbh - I don't want to have to move the boat just to get a shower really... unless that is what you are suggesting? For a moment there I thought this was one of those passive aggressive posts about different lifestyles and 'proper' boating - but glad we cleared this up - wouldn't want to derail my honest question with that nonsense!

You were quite quick to have a swipe at me there which I didn't respond to

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

60 litres is probably the right size. 

 

I do sometimes wonder if one could run a wet diesel heater direct. What you could do is use no coolant (antifreeze). Fill the system up each time you want to use it and circulate your fresh shower water through the heater and onwards to a storage container like a beer keg for example. 

 

That way you would get hot water really quickly. The system would not contain any water when not in use which would take out the potential freezing problem. 

 

It would take some doing but it would be fast hot water. 

You would need thermostatic control on the beer keg and the heater would have to be turned off quite soon after starting but at least it would not end up ticking over and sooting up. 

 

They have self cleaning shutdown procedures. 

 

This would take the unit out of use as a central heating system although with the right valves you could probably set it up before winter to work as heating and use in summer as a direct washing water heater. 

Beer kegs are for beer...

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3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Carling then...

What's the similarity between Carling and making love in a boat? 

3 hours ago, Colin Brendan said:

Wow - there's a lot of judgement going on here without anyone really knowing me or what I do! What a friendly community! Mods - you must be proud of this environment that seems to encourage such a discriminatory and tbh bullying attitude! Who would have thought I only came on here to ask a question about Calorifiers!

 

 

did-i-vnkdv8.jpg

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 Correct, I think some are thin wall and crimped for greater surface area. Seeing how copper work hardens, I think I would prefer a copper tube with decent wall thickness for longevity. I think some may be finned.

The one I posted earlier (60l twin coil) is specified as having two 5kW coils with 0.6m2 surface area each -- which means quite a lot of (copper) fins, which is presumably one reason for the high cost. Too big for a 5kW Webasto though...

 

They did originally suggest something even more ridiculous when I asked "What's the biggest yield coil you've got?", more than 20kW per coil IIRC -- meaning a cold tank to an 85C hot one in about 15 minutes, if you've got anything that can generate that much heat. A bit like bragging about how your car can do 0-60 in 3 seconds though, impressive but pretty pointless... 😉

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

On later boats with a cauliflower we used a Webby or Eber, clicked it on whilst still in bed & 30-45 minutes later a tank of hot water.

 

What is the problem ?

Bu¢¢ered if I know, 'cos mine's the same. I reckon most boats with an Eber or Webby and a standard off the shelf twin coil cauliflower do this. As ever, just finding and following the well trodden path really is usually the best approach.

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17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

On one of our boats the shower was fed directly from the Vailant 'instanaeous gas water heater'

Worked fine.

 

 

On later boats with a cauliflower we used a Webby or Eber, clicked it on whilst still in bed & 30-45 minutes later a tank of hot water.

 

What is the problem ?

IMG_20130912_122258.jpg

I guess since my calorifier needs replacing I was finding out what the best option to replace it with was.

 

16 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Bu¢¢ered if I know, 'cos mine's the same. I reckon most boats with an Eber or Webby and a standard off the shelf twin coil cauliflower do this. As ever, just finding and following the well trodden path really is usually the best approach.

I agree to a certain extent but at one stage doctors used to prescribe cigarettes for respiratory problems - so it's always worth questioning the status quo

 

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16 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Bu¢¢ered if I know, 'cos mine's the same. I reckon most boats with an Eber or Webby and a standard off the shelf twin coil cauliflower do this. As ever, just finding and following the well trodden path really is usually the best approach.

Because to heat a full tank up from cold to hot -- not just enough for one shower by heating the top bit -- takes a lot longer than 30-45mins. It certainly did on all the boats I've ever been on which had these fitted.

 

Warming up enough of a tank still full of tepid water from the previous day to shower temperature for one -- sure, that's quick. Heating up a full tank which was emptied of hot water by multiple showers the previous evening -- not so quick. It all depends what you want it to do... 😉

Edited by IanD
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10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Because to heat a full tank up from cold to hot -- not just enough for one shower by heating the top bit -- takes a lot longer than 30-45mins. It certainly did on all the boats I've ever been on which had these fitted.

 

Warming up enough of a tank still full of tepid water from the previous day to shower temperature for one -- sure, that's quick. Heating up a full tank which was emptied of hot water by multiple showers the previous evening -- not so quick. It all depends what you want it to do... 😉

Perhaps I'm at cross purposes: I was thinking the guy wanted a morning shower. An hour of the Eber in winter gives us a warm boat whilst  the stove is getting back up to speed and showers for 2. With all but the bathroom rad off in the summer it obviously takes a bit less, closer to the 30-45 mins @Alan de Enfield suggested. I don't expect to have a full tank of hot water to last 24 hours from that, but then it's easy to give it longer or a second session later in the day for more hot water on hand. 

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13 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Perhaps I'm at cross purposes: I was thinking the guy wanted a morning shower. An hour of the Eber in winter gives us a warm boat whilst  the stove is getting back up to speed and showers for 2. With all but the bathroom rad off in the summer it obviously takes a bit less, closer to the 30-45 mins @Alan de Enfield suggested. I don't expect to have a full tank of hot water to last 24 hours from that, but then it's easy to give it longer or a second session later in the day for more hot water on hand. 

What he said in the very first post was:

 

"I have a Webasto Thermo Top C 5.2 KW, and need to replace my Calorifier. I primarily want to use this Webasto for hot water (rads are secondary).

Any recommendations for a calorifier size/make that would:

A: Give me a shower in 30 mins (I know! How long's a piece of string... right!) - happy to turn rads off to make this happen

B: Allow the Webasto to run in summer without rads for 30 mins without short cycling (I will stick a rad on if I have to but would prefer not).

 

As so often people are arguing back and forth and saying "a normal calorifier works just fine for me, why do anything different?" -- while ignoring what he actually asked for... 😉

 

If you run a Thermo Top C 5.2kW into just a standard calorifier it will short cycle, probably even if there's a towel rail or one rad on (which he doesn't want to do).

 

To stop this he either needs a calorifier with bigger coils, or to replace the Webasto with a heater that can throttle right down like the new Eberspacher (goes down to 1.3kW).

 

Especially if he needs to replace the calorifier anyway, one with bigger coils will be the cheapest option.

Edited by IanD
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1 hour ago, IanD said:

As so often people are arguing back and forth and saying "a normal calorifier works just fine for me, why do anything different?" -- while ignoring what he actually asked for... 😉

Well yes, I see your point, but you have to allow that, when people ask for the moon on a stick, others might be tempted to suggest something rather more easily achieved. 

 

It's unclear to me whether he's replacing a perfectly good calorifier specifically to achieve something more or because its a duffer that needs to be replaced anyway so he's looking at whether something more is possible (where, as you say, a larger calorifier might well help). I suspect this is why there are many who suggest it may be more expeditious to explore how he might best use his current set up rather than rip out what works well for most.

 

Personally, I don't think that matters too much: I think I'd be happiest with the a mix of suggestions and discussions so I could chose the way forward that best achieved the outcome I was seeking, rather than proposals which only told me how I might achieve my own first thoughts.

(Any red text entirely unintentional - no idea where that control is!)

 

 

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For 20 years whilst I was a live aboard boater the diesel heater was my alarm clock. It would fire up I would get up and  make a coffee and take the coffee  back to bed. Half hour later I would get up to a warm boat, shower, dress and go off to work. In the summer I would turn off all the rads except the bathroom one and surprisingly it still worked 🤭

It's all surprisingly simple to do 😱

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