Jump to content

Starting an engine that hasn't turned over in months


Featured Posts

Thanks everyone, I have the engine running, but I'm not sure I really understand what the problem was!

 

 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Without hearing the attempt to start, it sounds to me like lack of fuel. Try loosening the big pipe nuts on the injectors a turn or two, and then crank the engine. You should get a little spit or drip of fuel from each loose nut. If you do tighten up and try to start again, possibly with a blowlamp in the METAL air intake.

I loosened the big nuts on the injectors and cranked, and lo and behold drips of diesel started leaking. I removed the air filter to expose the metal air intake pipe, and tried again (in case it was some kind of blockage) but that made no difference. For future reference, when you say a blowlamp in the air intake, do you mean blow a flame into it with a blowlamp? Directly in or just near, to warm the air?

 

 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

How did you connect the domestic battery?

I just connected a thick positive cable from the "domestic" side of the split charge relay to the other "starter" side, essentially bypassing the split charge relay which usually separates the two positives. When I measured the voltage of the starter battery at its terminals, it was only 6V. Then I realised that there was a battery isolator switch that appears to isolate the starter battery by disconnecting the negative linkage between them (not sure the point of this). This isolator was off! When I turned the isolator on, the voltage showed my domestic battery voltage. So clearly the problem was I was trying to turn over the engine at 6V!! I'm amazed it did anything at all really.

 

So the problem seems to be a dead starter battery. I might just get rid of it and use the domestics only. The make is supposedly a "hybrid" that is happy to act as a starter battery.

 

 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

No or a few wisps of "smoke" from the exhaust while cranking indicates a lack of fuel. Plenty of smoke indicates a low cranking speed, failed  glow plugs or a low compression


Once I solved the voltage issue and I was getting a proper crank out of the starter, the engine would crank and every now and then give a little cough as if it was about to start. Lots of white smoke. It took about 3 or 4 attempts of 30second cranking (the longest I'd dared to do) before it came to life. When it did, the note was a bit more of a deeper grumble rumble than I'm used to. 

 

I'm letting the engine run for 30 mins or so (at idle and with the alternator disconnected so as not to apply load) to get it up to full temperature as suggested.

 

I fear that my once bombproof beta might not start as easily as it used to anymore though

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of modern engines are self bleeding so you need a good battery to crank them over , your white smoke would indicate what was happening. We kept our barge in Belgium and laterally France where it stayed for the winter months which one time went down to -15. The engine was changed from a 2 stroke GM which needed a lot of turning to fire up after which the mooring and part of the village was covered in smoke for some time to a Perkins 130hp which after checking oil and water levels started as soon as the heater light went out absolutely brilliant.  The narrow boat PD2 didn’t like to start but had decompression levers and as a last resort hand start. The lister HB2 in our last narrow boat didn’t seem to ever have a problem starting . Originally 1970s we used HD30 oil in summer and HD20 in winter but of course now it’s 15-40 multi grade.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Possible problem with lift pump. My mum had a 1995 Beta BV1505 (35hp) in her narrow boat and one day she had someone in to do some work and he obviously stepped on the lift pump as after that there were some problems starting. I had a look and it turned out there was a tiny crack in one of the pipes. New lift pump ordered and fitted problem solved. 

 

It was rather a tinny little lift pump easy to damage .

 

Like this. Cracked where the pipe meets the body as it is all one piece of ally. 

 

IMG_20230125_164644.jpg.20e31e37dc8f20c91b5507d4dc6fd58c.jpg

 

Edited by magnetman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Pete Morrison said:

Thanks everyone, I have the engine running, but I'm not sure I really understand what the problem was!

 

 

I loosened the big nuts on the injectors and cranked, and lo and behold drips of diesel started leaking. I removed the air filter to expose the metal air intake pipe, and tried again (in case it was some kind of blockage) but that made no difference. For future reference, when you say a blowlamp in the air intake, do you mean blow a flame into it with a blowlamp? Directly in or just near, to warm the air?

 

 

I just connected a thick positive cable from the "domestic" side of the split charge relay to the other "starter" side, essentially bypassing the split charge relay which usually separates the two positives. When I measured the voltage of the starter battery at its terminals, it was only 6V. Then I realised that there was a battery isolator switch that appears to isolate the starter battery by disconnecting the negative linkage between them (not sure the point of this). This isolator was off! When I turned the isolator on, the voltage showed my domestic battery voltage. So clearly the problem was I was trying to turn over the engine at 6V!! I'm amazed it did anything at all really.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Pete Morrison said:

So the problem seems to be a dead starter battery. I might just get rid of it and use the domestics only. The make is supposedly a "hybrid" that is happy to act as a starter battery.


Once I solved the voltage issue and I was getting a proper crank out of the starter, the engine would crank and every now and then give a little cough as if it was about to start. Lots of white smoke. It took about 3 or 4 attempts of 30second cranking (the longest I'd dared to do) before it came to life. When it did, the note was a bit more of a deeper grumble rumble than I'm used to. 

 

I'm letting the engine run for 30 mins or so (at idle and with the alternator disconnected so as not to apply load) to get it up to full temperature as suggested.

 

I fear that my once bombproof beta might not start as easily as it used to anymore though

 

1. A bit confused, I thought you originally said that you stooped trying to start when the voltage showed 11 volts.

 

2. The blowlamp flame straight into the metal air intake (so you don't set fire to a plastic air filter enclosure or the paper element).

 

3. The deeper noise may be diesel knock caused by lots of fuel in the cylinders.

 

4. Once it is running and the oil has circulated, why are you warming the engine up without a load, that way leads to potently more wear.   It is up to you, but I would run at whatever speed gave maximum charge to maximise the load and give the fastest warm up. probably 1200 to 1500 RPM.

 

5. If the engine battery was at 6v then I doubt there is any question of it becoming unreliable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

1. A bit confused, I thought you originally said that you stooped trying to start when the voltage showed 11 volts.

I'm also confused. I am not sure how the voltage dropped at all when cranking when the starter battery earth was isolated from the domestics. I think maybe there is incorrect wiring connecting the negatives even when isolated - perhaps not thick enough to start the engine, but thick enough that the voltage didn't drop? For now I have removed the starter and just start from my domestic battery.

 

 

18 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

2. The blowlamp flame straight into the metal air intake (so you don't set fire to a plastic air filter enclosure or the paper element).

Wow! Ok if I struggle with a cold engine in the future I'll give this a try!

 

 

18 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

4. Once it is running and the oil has circulated, why are you warming the engine up without a load, that way leads to potently more wear.   It is up to you, but I would run at whatever speed gave maximum charge to maximise the load and give the fastest warm up. probably 1200 to 1500 RPM.

Yes, that's normally what I do if I am running to charge my batteries, but I understood from this thread above that it's frowned upon to increase the revs under no load. So I just let the engine idle and disconnected the alternator to let it get up to speed.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Pete Morrison said:

Yes, that's normally what I do if I am running to charge my batteries, but I understood from this thread above that it's frowned upon to increase the revs under no load. So I just let the engine idle and disconnected the alternator to let it get up to speed.

 

That may well be necessary on a vintage, very slow revving engine with a high alternator pull ratio because at idle with flat batteries it is not unknown for the alternator to stall the engine a sit comes on load, but I can't see why this should be necessary on the vast majority of engines.

 

It is the amount of load on an engine that determines how much fuel is burned and thus the amount of heat produced, so the higher the load the more heat and the faster the warm-up. I am not sure how much practical difference this makes in real life, but the faster you warm up, the sooner the pistons & rings expand to better seal to the cylinder, so it lessens the blow by with what that can do to the oil. Doing this will certainly give you a faster calorifier warm up.

 

A good rule of thumb is diesels like to be loaded so one might a swell do what you can to do so. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

 

A good rule of thumb is diesels like to be loaded so one might a swell do what you can to do so. 

Except for putting it in gear while tied to the bank. This is not acceptable although people do still do it. 

 

There are many reasons why to not do this. 

 

It damages canal banks.

You could get some debris in the prop and not be quick enough to disengage drive = damaged driveline, bent propshaft etc. 

Dangerous if a person or animal were to fall in close to the back of your boat. They could get draw in to the propeller with nobody at the controls to disengage drive. 

 

People do this but it is not acceptable to have propeller turning with nobody at the helm. 

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Except for putting it in gear while tied to the bank. This is not acceptable although people do still do it. 

 

There are many reasons why to not do this. 

 

It damages canal banks.

You could get some debris in the prop and not be quick enough to disengage drive = damaged driveline, bent propshaft etc. 

Dangerous if a person or animal were to fall in close to the back of your boat. They could get draw in to the propeller with nobody at the controls to disengage drive. 

 

People do this but it is not acceptable to have propeller turning with nobody at the helm. 

 

Please quote the whole post and the rest of the topic instead of cherry-picking to suit your position.  No one has suggested running in gear while tied up on canals, but it would not matter on most river navigations - the next flood would fill any holes that were dug in the bank.

 

The whole point is to use the alternator to load the engine to the maximum degree possible. That is all, nothing about running in gear while tied up. In any case, the alternator, even on twin alternator engines, can't be so loaded much more than normal cruising.

 

FWIW  even a 200 amp alternator at full output is only going to load the engine by less than 3.5 hp plus friction and pumping losses, which is better than just friction and pumping losses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thought 😱

Was it very cold (below freezing) on the day you tried but failed to start the engine?

If it was it could be waxy diesel especially as the diesel that's there will be Sumner diesel without the winter additives 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Loddon said:

One thought 😱

Was it very cold (below freezing) on the day you tried but failed to start the engine?

If it was it could be waxy diesel especially as the diesel that's there will be Sumner diesel without the winter additives 

 

Good thought, but I never suffered it, even when the boat was frozen solid into the marina.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Please quote the whole post and the rest of the topic instead of cherry-picking to suit your position.  No one has suggested running in gear while tied up on canals, but it would not matter on most river navigations - the next flood would fill any holes that were dug in the bank.

 

The whole point is to use the alternator to load the engine to the maximum degree possible. That is all, nothing about running in gear while tied up. In any case, the alternator, even on twin alternator engines, can't be so loaded much more than normal cruising.

 

FWIW  even a 200 amp alternator at full output is only going to load the engine by less than 3.5 hp plus friction and pumping losses, which is better than just friction and pumping losses.

 

I was not having a go at you at all and I don't have a 'position'. People do run their engines in gear and may think it is okay.

 

Your words were ' diesels like to be loaded so one might a swell do what you can to do so. '

 

My intention was simply to advise against turning the propeller with nobody at the helm. I know you did not directly advocate doing this but it could be read into your post that it was acceptable. You have to remember that you are a well respected and knowledgeable person when it comes to boats and their engines so it is worth being a bit careful I think.

 

 

Running engine in gear while tied up to the bank on a river can still cause damage to the driveline in the event of a propeller foul and does have the hazard of drawing animals or people into the propeller.

 

It isn't safe to do this. I suspect the safety aspect is often overlooked.

 

There are people all over the place on paddle boards, inflatable kayaks and even swimmers who would be likely to assume a moored craft will have no propellers turning.

Edited by magnetman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I struggling to understand why you would think it's a good idea to disconnect an alternator from a running or even non running engine. Seems a bit unnecessary to me, if not dangerous to the alternator. General wisdom is disconnecting an alternator when running is a way to ruin them. 

 

I appreciate you may disconnecting then starting the engine... but why ?

 

 

Eta  Cross posted so I think the reasoning was something to do with load. Tony has fully explained that. 

 

Edited by jonathanA
X post
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

I struggling to understand why you would think it's a good idea to disconnect an alternator from a running or even non running engine. Seems a bit unnecessary to me, if not dangerous to the alternator. General wisdom is disconnecting an alternator when running is a way to ruin them. 

 

I appreciate you may disconnecting then starting the engine... but why ?

 

 

Eta  Cross posted so I think the reasoning was something to do with load. Tony has fully explained that. 

 

Its only a little Beta Jap Kubota for heavens sake. What is all the messing about disconnecting, oiling, bleeding, tick over etc?  Just start the damn thing and go boating.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

 

I appreciate you may disconnecting then starting the engine... but why ?

 

 

I think I explained that if he has a very slow revving engine and thus a large alternator with a very high pulley ratio. Some simply will not rev or may stall as the alternator comes on load. However, as Peter Morrison has not given further information, we don't know if this is the case or if it is a personal thing.

  • Happy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is the amount of load on an engine that determines how much fuel is burned and thus the amount of heat produced, so the higher the load the more heat and the faster the warm-up. I am not sure how much practical difference this makes in real life, but the faster you warm up, the sooner the pistons & rings expand to better seal to the cylinder, so it lessens the blow by with what that can do to the oil. Doing this will certainly give you a faster calorifier warm up.

Usually when starting the engine I'll engage neutral and put it into say 50% throttle (I don't have a rev counter but say about halfway between tickover and flat out). Alternator (obviously) usually running. I let the engine warm up for 10-20 mins (depending on how cold it is) before I either a) kick it into gear and go boating, or b) dial it back to about 25% which seems to be the sweet spot for alternator output, then let it charge my batteries and heat my water for an hour or two. I always assumed it was best to let the engine warm up for a bit before doing anything with it, but I am gathering from the above that it's not really necessary?

 

 

7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

A good rule of thumb is diesels like to be loaded so one might a swell do what you can to do so. 

Is that the case even when they are just starting up cold?

 

 

6 hours ago, magnetman said:

Except for putting it in gear while tied to the bank. This is not acceptable although people do still do it. 

Good reminder. I would never do this. The only time I have ever tried leaving the boat in gear while not steering is to hold it against a lock (it was someone else's technique that I was giving a go). I didn't like it, made me very nervous to leave the boat in gear.

 

 

6 hours ago, Loddon said:

One thought 😱

Was it very cold (below freezing) on the day you tried but failed to start the engine?

If it was it could be waxy diesel especially as the diesel that's there will be Sumner diesel without the winter additives 

Yes it was, but i did get clear liquid diesel out of the injectors when I loosened them so I think not.

 

 

4 hours ago, jonathanA said:

I struggling to understand why you would think it's a good idea to disconnect an alternator from a running or even non running engine. Seems a bit unnecessary to me, if not dangerous to the alternator. General wisdom is disconnecting an alternator when running is a way to ruin them. 

 

I appreciate you may disconnecting then starting the engine... but why ?

Well it was just because here am I, cranking an engine for minutes on end while it's busy trying to drive an alternator. I figured the more load, the harder it would be to start. Was that a bad move for some reason? I disconnected it to give the engine an easier job, that's all. I didn't disconnect it while it was running. I let the engine warm up (at idle and without any load) to about 50 degrees (as measured by my calorifier temperature) and then switched off, reconnected the alternator, and since then the engine seems to be starting fine off of the domestic battery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Pete Morrison said:

Usually when starting the engine I'll engage neutral and put it into say 50% throttle (I don't have a rev counter but say about halfway between tickover and flat out). Alternator (obviously) usually running. I let the engine warm up for 10-20 mins (depending on how cold it is) before I either a) kick it into gear and go boating, or b) dial it back to about 25% which seems to be the sweet spot for alternator output, then let it charge my batteries and heat my water for an hour or two. I always assumed it was best to let the engine warm up for a bit before doing anything with it, but I am gathering from the above that it's not really necessary?

 

 

Is that the case even when they are just starting up cold?

 

 

Good reminder. I would never do this. The only time I have ever tried leaving the boat in gear while not steering is to hold it against a lock (it was someone else's technique that I was giving a go). I didn't like it, made me very nervous to leave the boat in gear.

 

 

Yes it was, but i did get clear liquid diesel out of the injectors when I loosened them so I think not.

 

 

Well it was just because here am I, cranking an engine for minutes on end while it's busy trying to drive an alternator. I figured the more load, the harder it would be to start. Was that a bad move for some reason? I disconnected it to give the engine an easier job, that's all. I didn't disconnect it while it was running. I let the engine warm up (at idle and without any load) to about 50 degrees (as measured by my calorifier temperature) and then switched off, reconnected the alternator, and since then the engine seems to be starting fine off of the domestic battery.

 

1. With no ammeter, that seems an eminently reasonable approach.

 

2. No, just let it idle for a few seconds to ensure oil gets to where it needs to be. Then rev t.

 

3.

 

4. I agree.

 

5. Think about it. The alternator has to reach a certain speed before it energises and that is usually above cranking speed so the alternator can't energise, so any extra load on the engine will be marginal and the stater motors is specified to deal with that. Don't buy an air cooled Lister with their hydraulic gearbox because they spin the prop and shaft while cranking and dthey still start properly.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The alternator has to reach a certain speed before it energises and that is usually above cranking speed so the alternator can't energise, so any extra load on the engine will be marginal and the stater motors is specified to deal with that.

Ah ok, so the alternator isn't really providing resistance unless it's spinning fast enough to energise. Thanks that makes sense. Was just struggling to start so was trying to make it as easy as possible. In retrospect that didn't give me any benefit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Pete Morrison said:

Ah ok, so the alternator isn't really providing resistance unless it's spinning fast enough to energise. Thanks that makes sense. Was just struggling to start so was trying to make it as easy as possible. In retrospect that didn't give me any benefit.

 

Great, the more knowledge the better.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its only a little Beta Jap Kubota for heavens sake. What is all the messing about disconnecting, oiling, bleeding, tick over etc?  Just start the damn thing and go boating.

 

 

^^^ This ^^^

 

The engine will be fine. If it isn't, you find out soon enough after about 10,000 hours more run time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.