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Age of a boat as a factor when buying.


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2 minutes ago, Naartjie said:

As a Newbie planning to buy a NB in the coming months. 

How much should the age of a boat influence my decision when choosing what to buy? 

 

Not as much as many seem to think.

 

Condition of the hull and engine are the most important, with the hull being the most important. A good paper trail of past maintenance is also good because it helps suggest the likely condition of the hull and engine. Be wary of what looks like a recently refurbished inside, especially if it has fancy sinks or and basins and taps. All too often it is mainly a show to try to hide the condition of more important parts of the boat. 

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I'd definitely be looking for an older well looked after boat rather than a newer boat. 

 

I think you will get a far better boat this way.  Lots of people will be put off because of the age so there might well be some really nice boats to be found. 

 

 

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A lot will depend on your budget, but older boats typically used steel of a thinner gauge than more modern ones. Obviously how well that steel has been maintained, and what kind of protection in way of coating it has had applied will make a massive difference, as will whether it has spent its life on an electric landline without adequate protection, and the timely changing of the anodes, placement and quantity.

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3 minutes ago, Naartjie said:

The paper work might contain a survey report, blacking history & engine maintenance etc, all helpful but what should I look out for wrt the hull & engine, that indicate a well cared for boat.

 

Any survey you find that you have not commissioned yourself should be taken as very highly suspect.

 

As you asked the question I fear any answers may well be outside your understanding and ability to assess. This is not intended to be in any way derogatory, just a statement of probable fact at this time.

 

I think the cleanliness of the whole area around the engine is a good indicator as it there being little visible rust in that area. Checking the ease of starting from cold without much smoke is another good test, as is checking the crankcase back pressure once the engine is warm. However, I have doubts that you know what some of this means.

 

I doubt that you will get a good, close look at the hull until it is out of the water and pressure washed off. I also doubt that you have the experience to assess the size and depth of rust pits so that is why a survey is a good idea for the inexperienced. I would not want to see rust and blacking around the waterline hanging off the hull or really large areas of unblacked rust.

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I have a background in electrical engineering & have tinkered around with motorcycles & simple things on cars, but I have no experience on diesel engines.

Is there an easy way to check crankcase back pressure other than using a gauge. 

Edited by Naartjie
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26 minutes ago, Naartjie said:

I have a background in electrical engineering & have tinkered around with motorcycles & simple things on cars, but I have no experience on diesel engines.

Is there an easy way to check crankcase back pressure other than using a gauge. 

 

Yes. Whip the oil filler cap off when running and see if it "breathes" through there. A knackered engine will chuck a decent mist of oil and air out

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Not as much as many seem to think.

 

Condition of the hull and engine are the most important, with the hull being the most important. A good paper trail of past maintenance is also good because it helps suggest the likely condition of the hull and engine. Be wary of what looks like a recently refurbished inside, especially if it has fancy sinks or and basins and taps. All too often it is mainly a show to try to hide the condition of more important parts of the boat. 

This is very good advice.  I'm often quietly shocked at the cooing which goes on over on facebook when someone posts a for-sale advert for a early 80s Springer of uncertain provenance but with a lot of cosmetic sprucing-up, for around £35k or more.  Typical comments:  "That's gorgeous", "what a beauty" etc.

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36 minutes ago, Naartjie said:

I have a background in electrical engineering & have tinkered around with motorcycles & simple things on cars, but I have no experience on diesel engines.

Is there an easy way to check crankcase back pressure other than using a gauge. 

 

There is with experience. get the engine warm, take the oil filler cap off, and give the engine a rev while you use your hand to judge the amount of gasses being expelled. If you see fumes, that is not such a good thing. Trying in a few cars MIGHT give you and idea of what is typical, especially if they are diesel.

 

Another bad sign is if the oil on the dipstick is very black and viscous when compared with fresh oil of say as a guide SAE 20W50 or SAE 25W40. Diesel lube oil will tend to go black a bit faster than on petrol engines, so it is not so much the blackness but the thickening that suggest it and the oil filter has not been changed for a long while.

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22 minutes ago, Naartjie said:

Would you get the same fumes/pressure if you pulled the dipstick

 

Not really because the hole s that much smaller.

 

A good diesel should start within a few seconds of energising the starter, as long as if the engine has glow plugs you have energised they for the correct time first. It might puff a bit of whitish exhaust smoke for a very short while, but if it goes on its not good.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Another bad sign is if the oil on the dipstick is very black and viscous when compared with fresh oil of say as a guide SAE 20W50 or SAE 25W40. Diesel lube oil will tend to go black a bit faster than on petrol engines, so it is not so much the blackness but the thickening that suggest it and the oil filter has not been changed for a long while.

 

Also if the oil is very thin (diesel in the oil) ?

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Just now, jonesthenuke said:

 

Also if the oil is very thin (diesel in the oil) ?

 

Very true, but more especially if it is an internal fuel pipe Lister or something like a BMC with a DPA or rotary injection pump. All those are getting on a bit now, so would expect then to be poor on the smoke after starting and the back pressure test.

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Up until fairly recently, say the last 10 years or so actually maintaining the bottom of the boat was never done, it was said to be a waste of time as the bitumen would rub off or the bottom never rusted. 1) it does rust, 2) even if a bit of bitumen rubs off most of it stays on and 3) bitumen is inferior to modern epoxy coatings. So.... boats of say, more than 20 years old or so are likely to have been built with 1/4" bottoms that were never painted and 3/16" sides that were painted occasionally with bitumen. Old boats are not just older but thinner and less well protected than more recent boats. This is of course just a generalisation so you need a hull survey out of the water and to look under floorboards if possible. Thing is though that steel boats are repairable and many are rebottomed and overplated and so long as the work is done by someone who can weld properly then don't worry too much, 

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1 minute ago, Bee said:

So.... boats of say, more than 20 years old or so are likely to have been built with 1/4" bottoms that were never painted and 3/16" sides that were painted occasionally with bitumen. Old boats are not just older but thinner and less well protected than more recent boats. This is of course just a generalisation

 

And of course, the thickness of the steel did vary from manufacturer to manufactuer.

Our 1998 (24 year old) Reeves narrowboat had 13mm (nominal 1/2") base plate which was still 13mm when we had it measured during blacking in 2015

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And of course, the thickness of the steel did vary from manufacturer to manufactuer.

Our 1998 (24 year old) Reeves narrowboat had 13mm (nominal 1/2") base plate which was still 13mm when we had it measured during blacking in 2015

It's probably worth noting that many boats over 25 years old will either have had some replating or overplating to the hull, or will need this doing. 

So you will need to factor this in to your decisions. Many (if not most) people advise that you should always get your own survey done before purchasing a boat (though there are a few people on this forum who have purchased boats without a survey and have been happy with their purchases)

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As you will have seen opinions are varied. If it's of any help I had my 1996 Eastwod Engineering 10/6/4 NB which I've owned from new surveyed last October. On one spot the base measured 8.6 with all other readings between 9.5 and 10. The sides were all between 5.6 and 6 

 

Blacked every 2 years

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A lot of it does depend on the original quality of the steel / surveyor used. There is a thing about 3.9mm hull thickness triggering overplating and all of the potential conflicts of interest going on WRT all of this sort of thing. 

 

It is a mine field. 

 

Edited by magnetman
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I would think that most NB engines are pretty robust, and anyone with OPs skillset would be able to make visual appraisal by inspection and running it, starting from cold.

Without a survey of hull presumably he can't really know about the steel condition, or even if the propshaft is worn or out of alignment. Just a general look at wiring and  paintwork can indicate the care and maintenance, it always puts me off if the waterline is rusty, and paintwork flaking.

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