CaRT's dismal failure of lock gate replacement

[ditchcrawler]

Didn't BW make gates for a while with inferior timber which ended up with a very short life, less than the 25 years

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I do admire the ingenuity with some of the temporary repairs.

😃

Although I think they too might be expected to last another 25 years. 
 

 

 

Considering how long it can take to make gates, I’m surprised only two workshops are now expected to keep up with the demand. 

 

It’d be interesting to know the annual cost of keeping the two workshops. 
 

 

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I do admire the ingenuity with some of the temporary repairs.

😃

Although I think they too might be expected to last another 25 years. 
 

Considering how long it can take to make gates, I’m surprised only two workshops are now expected to keep up with the demand. 

 

It’d be interesting to know the annual cost of keeping the two workshops. 
 

 

Isn't this exactly the same case as the NHS being expected to "keep up with the demand", while ignoring the fact that the resource/money has gone down and the demand has gone up?

 

No amount of expectation or saying "make it so" will fix this, no matter how much the government or CART want it to... 😞

Edited January 19, 2023 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Cheshire cat said:

Every time this kind of discussion comes up I wonder about the validity of ongoing restoration schemes. It just seems to be more straws for the camels back.

I have long suspected that most restoration schemes are a bit like monetary value - only existing for as long as someone believes in it. People get lottery or goverment funding for doing studies, planners get paid, money gets shelled out for bits of work round it, someone's doing a PhD, community service gets involved, in the old days the EU provided regeneration grants - lots of people make some money and get a bit of work out of projects which have no real prospect of happening. As soon as someone somewhere realises the money would be better spent elsewhere, usually for the latest popular fad where they'd get a bit of better publicity, the tap gets turned off.

Especially, as you say, these days, when if these did ever happen the rest of the system would be in no fit state for there to be any point.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

One reason Tacet and I are labouring the point is because Alan is a regular CRT moaner

 

Just to avoid any confusion- would you be kind enough to spell his name correctly.

 

Thankyou.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

The problem isn't missing gates, it's gates which are so old and knack*red that the rotten beams break off or they leak like a sieve with fountains from under/between the gates or within them -- I'm sure you've seen plenty like this recently, I certainly have. I'm equally sure that earlier this century there were a lot fewer quite so decrepit.

 

I'm deliberately not trying to make CART look worse than they are, I'm often one of the people defending them against the "it's all because of blue signs and executive pay" brigade, but the simple fact is they haven't got sufficient funds to properly maintain the UK canal system.

 

Do you agree?

I guess it is rather a simplification than a simple fact. As Rebecca Pow reminded those that attended the recent parliamentary debate, CRT has non operational assets of £1.1 billion.

 

They can use part of that £1.1 billion to increase maintenance spend. Indeed, some time back they said they would do just that.

 

However, the downside is that for every million that is taken from the dowry, CRT's net income reduces by about £30,000 a year.

 

 

 

[Midnight]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

The problem isn't missing gates, it's gates which are so old and knack*red that the rotten beams break off or they leak like a sieve with fountains from under/between the gates or within them -- I'm sure you've seen plenty like this recently, I certainly have. I'm equally sure that earlier this century there were a lot fewer quite so decrepit.

 

I'm deliberately not trying to make CART look worse than they are, I'm often one of the people defending them against the "it's all because of blue signs and executive pay" brigade, but the simple fact is they haven't got sufficient funds to properly maintain the UK canal system.

 

Do you agree?

Actually yes I agree but I do wonder why they waste so much on non-essentials whilst bemoaning insufficient funding. Take Facebook advertising as an example. There are plenty of vloggers, groups  individual boaters promoting waterways no need for sponsored ads at £1 per click-thru or £11 per 1000 impressions. I won't mention blue signs (oh!)

[magnetman]

The green and black signs were pretty terrible. Woof ! 

 

Not sure if any of them are still about as they were correx and cable ties..

 

Still must have cost money though. 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

I guess it is rather a simplification than a simple fact. As Rebecca Pow reminded those that attended the recent parliamentary debate, CRT has non operational assets of £1.1 billion.

 

They can use part of that £1.1 billion to increase maintenance spend. Indeed, some time back they said they would do just that.

 

However, the downside is that for every million that is taken from the dowry, CRT's net income reduces by about £30,000 a year.

 

 

 

would you elaborate on this please,

I think I understand what you’re saying but would you explain a bit more 

This could be a good topic to discuss and for it not to go amiss. 

are we simply talking selling off property and land ?

 

Id like to understand how the million equates to £30000.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Goliath

[Mike Todd]

8 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Pedants alert!

Some wide locks have 6 leaves - Tuel Lane is an example.

What about a broad lock with a guillotine at one end?

Is that 2 leaves, (i.e don't count guillotine), or 3, (count it)?

Quite a few 6 leaf locks up north.

[PeterScott]

8 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Pedants alert! Some wide locks have 6 leaves - Tuel Lane is an example. ...

 

 

One, two, three, four ...

 

 

 

... five, six ...

 

 

 

... seven, eight

 

Torksey Lock  Fossdyke Navigation is an eight-leaved lock, as is Keadby below.

 

Any advance on eight?

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by PeterScott

[Bristolfashion]

CRT need to be able to maintain the system and balance the books. General increases in all access / usage charges are required I'm afraid. "Driving people off the canal" would, of course, reduce maintenance costs!

 

Perhaps the costs of restored arms / canals should remain with the restoration society, which should be able to charge an additional levy for access?

[David Mack]

9 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

What about a broad lock with a guillotine at one end?

Is that 2 leaves, (i.e don't count guillotine), or 3, (count it)?

Surely a guillotine counts as both a single gate and a single gate leaf.

I wonder if the two guillotine gates at King's Norton are included in the totals.

Edited January 19, 2023 by David Mack

[David Mack]

One can argue what the exact meaning of an average life of 25 years is, but the more interesting question is what is the average age of gates when they are replaced? My guess is that it will vary widely, and so an average figure isn't particularly helpful.

Not only are gates replaced, but gates are also repaired This can range from fitting new sealing strips to the mating faces, to replacing rotting or broken balance beams or, as happened on the Rochdale in 2019, craning a single gate (leaf) out, replacing the entire mitre post, then refitting it. To what extent do such repairs significantly extend the life of a gate?

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, Bristolfashion said:

CRT need to be able to maintain the system and balance the books. General increases in all access / usage charges are required I'm afraid. "Driving people off the canal" would, of course, reduce maintenance costs!

 

Perhaps the costs of restored arms / canals should remain with the restoration society, which should be able to charge an additional levy for access?

 

 

That is already written into the law - but never enforced, in addition, BW / C&RT could also simply sell / dispose / close any canal that falls into the 'remainder' definition.

 

 

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

would you elaborate on this please,

I think I understand what you’re saying but would you explain a bit more 

This could be a good topic to discuss and for it not to go amiss. 

are we simply talking selling off property and land ?

 

Id like to understand how the million equates to £30000.

 

Presumably it is a 3 percent return. 

[David Mack]

6 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

The millennium canals are actually part of the problem because BW ordered so many gates in a short space of time that inferior wood was used in some instances and had to be replaced after less than 20 years. 

I've commented on here before that some of the 20 year old gates on the Rochdale made of oak are now looking quite 'craggy', although they look to have several years of useful life left in them. But there are also some gates made of a close grained dark hardwood that still have a very smooth surface that is barely weathered - they look almost new. No idea what timber was used, and whether it is available from sustainable sources (which wouldn't have been such an important consideration 20+ years ago), but it looks to have been a much better investment than oak.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

2 hours ago, Goliath said:

would you elaborate on this please,

I think I understand what you’re saying but would you explain a bit more 

This could be a good topic to discuss and for it not to go amiss. 

are we simply talking selling off property and land ?

 

Id like to understand how the million equates to £30000.

 

Here is an elaboration -

British Waterways had a large portfolio of non-operational property used as an investment portfolio to produce yearly income. Government gave CRT all British Waterways property in England & Wales. (Property in Scotland went to Scottish Waterways). The value of this property at transfer was £460m. Government also eased or removed many of the restrictions on how this "dowry" could be used. For example, the Trust could use the dowry as security for loans. BW was heavily restricted in this area.

The grant agreement between Defra and CRT has a few restrictions. The ones of note are -

- The dowry must be used for agreed purposes. In reality, this means CRT's charitable purposes which are much wider that its statutory role as a Navigation Authority.

- There must be no "Material Diminution". In effect, the value of the dowry should not fall below £460m plus inflation.

Fast forward ten years to the 2021/22 Annual report.

The £460m investment portfolio is now valued at £1,114m and is much diversified. (This is the £1.1 billion figure quoted by Rebecca Pow).  Of particular note is that part of the increase in value is due to a £150m loan secured against property assets. This costs CRT about £4.3m per year.

CRT's headline figure is that its investment portfolio contributes £51.4m towards its charitable expenditure. However that figure is gross and does not take into account its expenditure in raising the £51.4m or its loan repayment. The net contribution of CRT's investment portfolio is £33.7m. Expressed as a percentage of the value of the portfolio (33.7/1114*100) it is just 3.02% or about £30,000 for each million in the investment portfolio.

To sum up, CRT has the ability to use a significant part of its property portfolio (maybe £500m) to tackle its maintenance backlog. However, in doing so it reduces its yearly income by £30,000 for every £1m it spends (based on the latest annual report).

For brevity, I have left out CRT's failed attempt for extra funding in addition to its Defra grant and plans to provide that funding from its investment portfolio.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)
Remove blank space

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Presumably it is a 3 percent return. 

Yes 3% net.

 

[Jon57]

15 hours ago, David Mack said:

I've commented on here before that some of the 20 year old gates on the Rochdale made of oak are now looking quite 'craggy', although they look to have several years of useful life left in them. But there are also some gates made of a close grained dark hardwood that still have a very smooth surface that is barely weathered - they look almost new. No idea what timber was used, and whether it is available from sustainable sources (which wouldn't have been such an important consideration 20+ years ago), but it looks to have been a much better investment than oak.

On a visit to Stanley ferry workshops years ago they said they made some gates from a hardwood from abroad.( can’t remember the place or name of wood old age😱) but they had to stop using it as the fumes from machining it were very toxic. (More than acceptable) maybe the gates were made from it possibly?

[magnetman]

Ekki, otherwise known as Azobe.

 

 

I had some offcuts from works on the K&A in 2001 for the fire. It was so dense and heavy that if you dropped a piece in it would sink.

 

Bloody good on the fire though to be fair.

[rusty69]

I dropped some ekki on my foot once. It landed with a thump. 

[magnetman]

There was this story in the Observer some yars ago.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/14/uk.antonybarnett

 

I think it was the observer but the link goes to the Grauniad. 

 

Love the headline "Bloody logs of war linked to English idyll"

 

Kennet and Avon an Idyll? 

 

Talk about poetic license...

[rusty69]

Cry “mattock!” and lets ship the logs of door. 
That this foul ditch shall carry boats uphill. 
With carrying men, groaning at Caen, still