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Cooke small windlass mystery


Stroudwater1

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Thanks to the poster recently one mystery I had  has I think been solved. The pattern on one side I always thought was a badly stamped old IWA logo. So I had thought it was made for an IWA Rally and given to a Mr Cooke 🤣.
 

However it seems GH Cooke was an older maker and sometimes they were chrome plated . Their windlasses were stamped with a clay pipe. 


I picked this up off eBay years ago advertised in the toy steam section for a couple of pound. 
I hope I’m right ? 

But the final mysterious thing is it’s very small, around 1/2 AF for the windlass to fit into It doesn’t look worn either so not much use in action. It’s only  3 1/2 inches each way.

 

Does anyone know what it’s function was or maybe it was a piece made by an apprentice. 
 

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The museum at Stoke Bruerne has a couple of these. Some boaters hung them up in the cabin along with their ribbon / lace plates.

l believe the Cooke windlass were made at Wheelock Cheshire. They were known as a “welluck.”

The full-size ones were much prized by boaters as they still are today.

 

ETA the cut outs in the head may have been a way of personalising the windlass.

 

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Mrs Skinner 1944.jpg

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Edited by Ray T
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7 hours ago, Ray T said:

Old thread.

 

 

 

Thanks for that reminder Ray. Was it really 15 years ago that I announced my intention to research the maker of windlasses stamped with the name G H COOKE?  As you know, I started the research, and have found conclusive evidence of the maker. Unfortunately, I had not completed the research before I was unexpectedly dignosed with a serious medical condition, which put a stop to my researches for a good while. After I had recovered, some of my research avenues went cold, and my enthusiasm diminished. I still have all my research data, and have added to them spasmodicly over the ensuing years. I guess that I should publish that which I do know before time runs out.

 

A small wrought iron windlass of similar proportions as that illustrated in the OP's post, and bearing the pipeclay mark  was discovereed at Keays Dock some years ago , but it does not bear the G H COOKE mark. It is possible that another exists somewhere with the G H COOOKE mark, however the Brass one appears to have been cast more recently, possibly using a wrought iron one as a pattern, but I am confident that it was not made by the same maker of the iron G H COOKE windlasses which were much prized by working boatmen.

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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7 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

 

Thanks for that reminder Ray. Was it really 15 years ago that I announced my intention to research the maker of windlasses stamped with the name G H COOKE?  As you know, I started the research, and have found conclusive evidence of the maker. Unfortunately, I had not completed the research before I was unexpectedly dignosed with a serious medical condition, which put a stop to my researches for a good while. After I had recovered, some of my research avenues went cold, and my enthusiasm diminished. I still have all my research data, and have added to them spasmodicly over the ensuing years. I guess that I should publish that which I do know before time runs out.

 

A small wrought iron windlass of similar proportions as that illustrated in the OP's post, and bearing the pipeclay mark  was discovereed at Keays Dock some years ago , but it does not bear the G H COOKE mark. It is possible that another exists somewhere with the G H COOOKE mark, however the Brass one appears to have been cast more recently, possibly using a wrought iron one as a pattern, but I am confident that it was not made by the same maker of the iron G H COOKE windlasses which were much prized by working boatmen.

 

 


Thanks David for your assessment. I’m curious though why anyone would go to the lengths of casting one from brass at a later date?  I hope it wasn’t as a forgery but surely until recently it’s a very niche market? We’re any brass windlasses then made by GH Cooke? 

Would the stamping of the name and pipe come after casting? The name is a reasonably crisp stamping and would seem to have been done with the whole name stamped rather than individual characters stamped one at a time.  The pipe bit isn’t and seems to possibly have been done when cast? (hence my IWA thought 😞 


Somewhere I have the original invoice and image from the time I bought it which would have been around 2006-12 . It wasn’t sold in the canal section nor advertised as such, so the seller wouldn’t have cast it. It was sold as a spanner for steam engine IIRC 🤣 
 

Either way I can reassure all it’s a keeper. I’ve got a few of the other ones that Ray posted that used to be on sale at Fradley Junction many years ago. My Dad used to buy them and give  to friends who crewed with us on  holiday so it’s a reminder of those days. 
 

 

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I haven't seen any full sized Cooke windlasses, so cannot comment on if the Cooke name appears on them. But the thought comes to mind that maybe the miniature windlasses (as seen in the back cabin in the B & W image above) might have been samples made to attract clients. Bit of a long shot though.

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They have G.H COOKE on one side and the churchwarden pipe stamp on the other side exactly the same as the little copper alloy item in the OP.

 

I'll see if my gallery is still on here from yars ago as have a picture in there somewhere.

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

They have G.H COOKE on one side and the churchwarden pipe stamp on the other side exactly the same as the little copper alloy item in the OP.

 

I'll see if my gallery is still on here from yars ago as have a picture in there somewhere.

 

No need to search. Here are a couple of pictures of both the GH COOKE and Pipeclay marks. These are, by far, the best examples I have seen, most are usually far less clear.:-

 

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909837245_CookeNo9e.jpg.aa3972881792042acfb3b58049affa5b.jpg

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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8 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:


Thanks David for your assessment. I’m curious though why anyone would go to the lengths of casting one from brass at a later date?  I hope it wasn’t as a forgery but surely until recently it’s a very niche market? We’re any brass windlasses then made by GH Cooke? 

Would the stamping of the name and pipe come after casting? The name is a reasonably crisp stamping and would seem to have been done with the whole name stamped rather than individual characters stamped one at a time.  The pipe bit isn’t and seems to possibly have been done when cast? (hence my IWA thought 😞 


Somewhere I have the original invoice and image from the time I bought it which would have been around 2006-12 . It wasn’t sold in the canal section nor advertised as such, so the seller wouldn’t have cast it. It was sold as a spanner for steam engine IIRC 🤣 
 

Either way I can reassure all it’s a keeper. I’ve got a few of the other ones that Ray posted that used to be on sale at Fradley Junction many years ago. My Dad used to buy them and give  to friends who crewed with us on  holiday so it’s a reminder of those days. 
 

 

 

It is extreemly unlikely that Cooke ever made any items in anything other than wrought iron, he was a Village Blacksmith, working either on his own or with a son as an apprentice. If he did work in brass, he would have, almost certainly, described himself as a Brass Founder as well as a Blacksmith in the census returns. There was an Iron Foundry in Wheelock, associated with the Salt Works, but there is no evidence of there ever being a Brass Foundry in the village

 

With regard the the marks on the OP'S brass windlass, they certainly appear to have been cast rather than stamped, which would involve having two (expensive) stamps being made. This raises more questions, was a wrought iron windlass bearing both the GH COOKE and pipeclay marks used as a pattern, in which case , where is it? or did the caster butcher a full size cooke windlass to achive the two marks? The one person who might have been able to throw a light on this would have been Laurence Hogg, who is sadly no longer with us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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I was thinking Laurence Hogg as well.

 

I think it was probably taken from a mould made using an original Cooke windlass but the sizes were altered. Or perhaps Cooke made a mini forged iron key as a sample or a special for a friend. or maybe apprentice practice piece.

 

Where is it? Is the 64 million pound question.

 

This topic did come up on here some time ago and Laurence knew a lot about it. I think it might have been in the "£185 windlass" thread which was quite detailed.

Click on image to open thread.

 

 

 

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This thread has rejuvinated my interest in Cooke windlasses, causing me to delve a bit more into my records. Below is a photo of the "Keays Dock" windlass which Laurence Hogg owned, followed by a copy of the brass windlass in the OP. As can be seen, they have a number of subtle differences, not least of which is a different mark on the presented side. Interestestingly the positioning of the Pipeclay and GH COOKE are on the same sides on all the examples known to me, but the pipeclay only mark can appear on either side when not accompanied by the GH COOKE mark.  I have a theory as to why, but am reserving judgement at the moment.

 

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image.png.a5ed6de01e601aa92fd251fe6369b88b.png

 

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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I like that pocket windlass ! One for a man with muscle and technique I think, Or is it just a sample? It seems exceptionally small.

 

I've got a similar sized bronze key which actually came from America but happens to fit the modern spindle size. It will bend if you go too hard but does fit in the pocket. There is a way to use a pocket windlass which does not involve imparting all of the force to the handle part.

 

Not sure where it is. Will have to dig it out for this thread I suppose ! No markings on that one.

 

 

I believe the copper alloy example above doesn't fit anything but the iron one does.

Edited by magnetman
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45 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I like that pocket windlass ! One for a man with muscle and technique I think, Or is it just a sample? It seems exceptionally small.

 

I've got a similar sized bronze key which actually came from America but happens to fit the modern spindle size. It will bend if you go too hard but does fit in the pocket. There is a way to use a pocket windlass which does not involve imparting all of the force to the handle part.

 

Not sure where it is. Will have to dig it out for this thread I suppose ! No markings on that one.

 

 

I believe the copper alloy example above doesn't fit anything but the iron one does.

 

The internal dimensions of the socket on the "Keays Dock" Windlass are  3/8" x 3/4" , so certainly not for lock gate spindles, but it might make a good bed spanner (anyone remember them?)

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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The small bronze I found on ebay from America was described as an anchor winch handle. By some odd coincidence it is exactly the right size for the current spindles on the Grand Union. Seemed strange but just a fluke I think as have never seen any others the same pattern.

 

I think its under the bed on my other boat so will have a look next time I'm there as this thread has piqued my interest in windlasses again...

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It was in this thread that Laurence Hogg confirmed that he cast some bronze windlasses with the Cooke and clay pipe markings.

 

 

So it seems likely that the answer is the miniature windlass in the OP was cast by the Boatmans Cabin Company which was Laurence Hogg's company doing shiny accessories for boats among other things.

 

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2 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

So it seems likely that the answer is the miniature windlass in the OP was cast by the Boatmans Cabin Company which was Laurence Hogg's company doing shiny accessories for boats among other things.

 

 

That doesn't explain the miniature windlasses hanging up in the boatmans cabin in the IWM image, nor the reference to miniature windlasses in Sheila Stewart's 'Ramlin Rose' paperback. Though that particular one might have been.

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Presumably there was a precedent for producing miniature bronze windlasses specifically for back cabin decoration. Living in a small space I can see why this would be appealing. 

 

Of course we don't know if they were put there specifically for the photographer so he could get a more relevant photo or if they actually were popular decorations like the lace plates and bed knobs. 

 

If they were popular it could have become quite a cottage industry producing them. 

Edited by magnetman
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2 hours ago, magnetman said:

Also holding the handle of the kettle with bare hand where I would expect you might want a little cloth. 

 

Staged photo. 

 

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

I think all nearly all the old canal photos of boaters are staged, I would suspect inside the cabin it would be quite a long exposure, not point and click like today.

 

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