New shell or Renovation?

[Hudds Lad]

6 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

One of the wonderful joys of the Oxford and the Coventry is the total absence of widebeams.

 

 

 

 

(Cue a long string of photos of widebeams on the Oxford and on the Coventry, lol!)

 

 

[Jon57]

3 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

 

Thing of beauty 🥰not the boat.🤣🤣

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Thing of beauty 🥰not the boat.🤣🤣

At first I thought that was the fatboat famous for crashing into other boats and mooring in stupid places , but it can't be since it's not moving and seems to be moored sensibly... 😉

 

(though no spring lines, so the occupant may be about to leap out and scream "SLOW DOWN!!!"...)

Edited January 17, 2023 by IanD

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Thing of beauty 🥰not the boat.🤣🤣

 

Nah, the rose is the wrong colour ...

[Hudds Lad]

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Nah, the rose is the wrong colour ...

If you take off those rose-tinted specs it will stop looking red and appear as it should be, white   

[Bee]

Fitting out a boat is a big job. I have done 4 and it is all consuming, The present boat was a very bare shell, its not a narrowboat or a fat boat, its a small Dutch replica tug and I reckoned it would take 2 years. it took 3 and that includes making and fitting everything, windows, doors, wheelhouse cushions, curtains, electrics, gas, engine, rudder, hydraulics, sterngear, paperwork, - the lot. Much of this time was taken up with sourcing everything to fit our budget and making 12 opening windows, doors and much much more in the shed. in the evenings. The boat was fitted out on land. You can do it in less but then you have to pay a lot more for everything.  I actually like doing stuff like this but most people struggle to see it through and are often disapointed / divorced/ broke at the end of it. I really would advise buying an ordinary, mid range boat and actually just using it without devoting a big chunk of your life to building one

[CrabbyPatty]

Thank you all for your insights, it has all been useful.

 

Although I have a decent budget, I do want to do this without blowing the bank, as it were. 

 

A question for those who have bought new sail away boats, would you mind giving me a rough idea on how much it cost to do?  Sorry if that is too personal....

 

My husband and I are both from engineering backgrounds and my father also ran an engineering company.  So we would all be capable of doing the work. Whether or not we want to do it is sometimes another question!!!😆 (Joking, we are all enthusiastic about it). My father has owned boats in his past and I have spent many a year cruising the cut for holidays, so we are not total virgins.

 

We can wait for a year or more for the build tbh, obviously the sooner it is don the better.  I would probably pay for some of the work to be done, and do some ourselves, to save time and hassle. 

 

To answer questions (sorry if I miss some).

 

The cruiser stern, we want to have the rear space as our area to sit out and enjoy cruising along and sitting out to enjoy when we are moored  Especially as we want the bedroom at the very front.  It is important to us that the kitchen is close to the stern, so that we can supply food and drinks to whoever is driving, and so that my messy husband and muddy pawed dog, do not drag filth through the whole boat.  Plus I like the idea of waking up and opening the front doors out to enjoy the fresh morning. So the reverse layout is the deal breaker.  i would consider the semi trad, if we still have space to sit together.  Also my husband is a 'relaxed' guy, he likes the idea of being comfy while driving the boat! Yes... I will be the designated lock keeper...

 

The problem with me, is that I have slight issues with OCD and having to completely control the environment I am in and if I am doing something, I tend to have to strip right back to the bare bones of things.  The insulation will bother me, if I dont think it is good enough, for instance.  (there are pictures of myself and my father hovering under the floorboards of the house we renovated).  This is something that concerns me with the second hand boat thing.  Will I end up going mental and having to strip it down to its bones anyway?!!  Unless I do find one that is the right layout and just need a bit of updating, for instance I like the modern look and more white, not so much wood, and I would most likely redo the bathroom.. but then the danger is, i then see the underside and start freaking out about the insulation..🤔

 

 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, CrabbyPatty said:

[snip]

The cruiser stern, we want to have the rear space as our area to sit out and enjoy cruising along and sitting out to enjoy when we are moored  Especially as we want the bedroom at the very front.  It is important to us that the kitchen is close to the stern, so that we can supply food and drinks to whoever is driving, and so that my messy husband and muddy pawed dog, do not drag filth through the whole boat.  Plus I like the idea of waking up and opening the front doors out to enjoy the fresh morning. So the reverse layout is the deal breaker.  i would consider the semi trad, if we still have space to sit together.  Also my husband is a 'relaxed' guy, he likes the idea of being comfy while driving the boat! Yes... I will be the designated lock keeper...

[snip]

 

Similar reasons to mine for choosing a reverse layout semi-trad, I wanted to have enough space at the stern for up to four of us to sit while travelling -- in mine the bedroom at the front has side doors and a forecabin not bow doors, better use of space but no well deck, kitchen is at the rear for the same reason as you.

 

With a semi-trad you can sit out on the seats while moored but not on chairs around a table like a cruiser, however being able to step inside the rear doors in bad weather is a lot more pleasant than being on an exposed cruiser stern -- also if you end up going down a short lock with a fountain from under (or over) the top gate, your shoes don't get filled with water (DAMHIK). Here's what mine looked like during construction -- will have four cushions to sit on, the taller rear port-side locker is for a folding bike but also gives a better height perch seat to sit on when steering from inside the rear doors.

 

Horses for courses, a trad stern doesn't sound like it would suit you but either of the others might 🙂

[CrabbyPatty]

I like that Ian, storage as well....

 

I would probably get one of those pram cratch covers, as well, dearest Hubby gets very grumpy when he is very wet.😂

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, CrabbyPatty said:

I like that Ian, storage as well....

 

I would probably get one of those pram cratch covers, as well, dearest Hubby gets very grumpy when he is very wet.😂

If you mean a "pram hood" over the steerer (cratch is at the bow) that's a whole bucket of worms you'll probably wish you'd never opened... 😉

[CrabbyPatty]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

If you mean a "pram hood" over the steerer (cratch is at the bow) that's a whole bucket of worms you'll probably wish you'd never opened... 😉

Yes lol, I struggle with terminology on a regular basis, always getting into trouble with that...😐

 

I've noticed a few things seem to stir up a soup, as it were.

 

[David Mack]

55 minutes ago, CrabbyPatty said:

A question for those who have bought new sail away boats, would you mind giving me a rough idea on how much it cost to do?  Sorry if that is too personal....

In The Narrowboat Builders Book Graham Booth records how much time and money he spent fitting out a sailaway shell. The book is a bit long in the tooth now, but still a good read if you are fitting out. Unfortunately it will cost you a bit more than Graham's 1993 prices.

[ditchcrawler]

36 minutes ago, CrabbyPatty said:

I like that Ian, storage as well....

 

I would probably get one of those pram cratch covers, as well, dearest Hubby gets very grumpy when he is very wet.😂

OK if you are not moving or are on wide canals or rivers.

 

[CrabbyPatty]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

OK if you are not moving or are on wide canals or rivers.

I will get him a good raincoat then!

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, CrabbyPatty said:

The cruiser stern, we want to have the rear space as our area to sit out and enjoy cruising along and sitting out to enjoy when we are moored  Especially as we want the bedroom at the very front.  It is important to us that the kitchen is close to the stern, so that we can supply food and drinks to whoever is driving, and so that my messy husband and muddy pawed dog, do not drag filth through the whole boat.  Plus I like the idea of waking up and opening the front doors out to enjoy the fresh morning. So the reverse layout is the deal breaker.  i would consider the semi trad, if we still have space to sit together.  Also my husband is a 'relaxed' guy, he likes the idea of being comfy while driving the boat! Yes... I will be the designated lock keeper...

Reverse layout is good if you have a cruiser or semi trad stern and the rear door is going to be your main entrance and exit. Whereas with a trad stern the front well deck is usually the main outdoor social space, and so a conventional layout is more appropriate. Having the living space at the front and windows in the front doors and bulkhead does give you a good view forward, with front doors open or closed, whereas windows in the rear bulkhead and doors are much less common, and the view back is obstructed by the steerer/ tiller/ stern rail etc.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, CrabbyPatty said:

I like that Ian, storage as well....

 

I would probably get one of those pram cratch covers, as well, dearest Hubby gets very grumpy when he is very wet.😂

 

Beyond tedious to cruise with, when you're on a canal with low bridges every quarter of a mile! 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

13 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Similar reasons to mine for choosing a reverse layout semi-trad, I wanted to have enough space at the stern for up to four of us to sit while travelling -- in mine the bedroom at the front has side doors and a forecabin not bow doors, better use of space but no well deck, kitchen is at the rear for the same reason as you.

 

With a semi-trad you can sit out on the seats while moored but not on chairs around a table like a cruiser, however being able to step inside the rear doors in bad weather is a lot more pleasant than being on an exposed cruiser stern -- also if you end up going down a short lock with a fountain from under (or over) the top gate, your shoes don't get filled with water (DAMHIK). Here's what mine looked like during construction -- will have four cushions to sit on, the taller rear port-side locker is for a folding bike but also gives a better height perch seat to sit on when steering from inside the rear doors.

 

Horses for courses, a trad stern doesn't sound like it would suit you but either of the others might 🙂

 

I must point out that sitting on semi-trad stern seats like the above is unlikely to be comfortable for extended periods, even with cushions. The seat backs tend to be vertical or even slope the wrong way, possibly with a reinforcing sections along the top. Whereas our cruiser stern allowed the use o two or three folding picnic chairs and the stern deck seemed smaller than many, and it had a three bottle gas tank taking space. That provided a "sideboard" when eating out, and putting a Desmo socket in the deck allowed a small circular table. How many picnic chairs can be comfortably fitted in the image, whilst still allowing for getting in and out of the boat?

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I must point out that sitting on semi-trad stern seats like the above is unlikely to be comfortable for extended periods, even with cushions. The seat backs tend to be vertical or even slope the wrong way, possibly with a reinforcing sections along the top. 

  I’ve too have always thought that Semi-Trad sterns aren’t the most comfortable places to sit with high inward sloping sides and reinforcing box section roughly head height. Also with a more restricted view of the scenery, especially looking forward when seated compared to a more open bow section with side seating lockers. Having 4x people in one area could be a pain when approaching locks, as if they stood up to see what’s happening or to get ready to disembark it could hinder the steerer’s view and actions. 
 How many times do you see the woman sitting at the front and the men standing at the rear?Sometimes they have their own agendas to discuss and gossip about.

  Whatever stern or bow you have the design will have pluses and minuses, like all boats.

  I’m seeing more boats with @IanD shell being built then a few years ago and more built then cruiser sterns, so getting more popular with his shell builder’s customer’s it seams.

Edited January 18, 2023 by PD1964

[IanD]

2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

  I’ve too have always thought that Semi-Trad sterns aren’t the most comfortable places to sit with high inward sloping sides and reinforcing box section roughly head height. Also with a more restricted view of the scenery, especially looking forward when seated compared to a more open bow section with side seating lockers. Having 4x people in one area could be a pain when approaching locks, as if they stood up to see what’s happening or to get ready to disembark it could hinder the steerer’s view and actions. 
 How many times do you see the woman sitting at the front and the men standing at the rear?Sometimes they have their own agendas to discuss and gossip about.

  Whatever stern or bow you have the design will have pluses and minuses, like all boats.

  I’m seeing more boats with @IanD shell being built then a few years ago and more built then cruiser sterns, so getting more popular with his shell builder’s customer’s it seams.

 

If you look at the photo I sent you'll see that -- unlike a lot of semi-trad sterns -- the "seat backrests" are vertical and there is no bar at the top, because there's a welded inner panel filling this in. With seat cushions on the lockers I can guarantee that these *are* comfortable to sit on (and lean back against), because I've done it 🙂

 

This costs extra to build and a lot of semi-trads don't bother, so you end up with uncomfortable seats -- but this is down to the customer/builder, not an inherent problem with the semi-trad layout.

 

Are your "I've always thought" comments speculation, or based on experience? I've been on many semi-trad (and cruiser, and trad) boats over the years and haven't found any big crowding problem such as you describe even with four people at the stern -- but have found the seats are often uncomfortable, see above comments.

 

It's not obvious from the photo but my semi-trad section is also a bit longer than normal (about 1.7m) so there's rather more seat width than normal, each one is about 65cm wide (plus the curved section next to the doors).

 

I don't have an open bow at all, but if people (e.g. of one sex) want to travel away from the stern (e.g. the other sex) they can always sit in the dinette which has large opening glazed side doors on both sides.

 

I should also point out that another big reason for having a well deck and seats at the bow on a diesel boat is to give a quiet place to sit while cruising, away from the engine noise. Not an issue for a hybrid... 😉

 

Everything on a narrowboat is swings and roundabouts, whatever you choose always has good and bad points, you just have to decide what best suits you -- and this could be very different from somebody else, so don't listen to anyone who says "this is absolutely *the* best solution" -- it might be for them, but not for you...

Edited January 18, 2023 by IanD

[Jon57]

You’ve got swings and roundabouts. Bloody hell.🤣🤣

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

If you look at the photo I sent you'll see that -- unlike a lot of semi-trad sterns -- the "seat backrests" are vertical and there is no bar at the top, because there's a welded inner panel filling this in. With seat cushions on the lockers I can guarantee that these *are* comfortable to sit on (and lean back against), because I've done it 🙂

 

So that reduces the depth of the seat and consequently the hatch size that gives access to the storage below. That may not be important but if the OP wanted to store a generator in there (with an overboard vent hole) it could be a problem, also, maybe for an anchor. It is all a compromise, leading to what the OP deems is necessary.

 

Out of interest, for how many hours at a stretch have you sat on those or similar seats? I have sat, comfortably, on the picnic chairs, for several hours whilst watching the wildlife of an evening and the sun going down. I can not say the same for bow locker seats that are similar, even with cushions.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

So that reduces the depth of the seat and consequently the hatch size that gives access to the storage below. That may not be important but if the OP wanted to store a generator in there (with an overboard vent hole) it could be a problem, also, maybe for an anchor. It is all a compromise, leading to what the OP deems is necessary.

 

Yes the seat is shallower but more comfortable, which as you say is a compromise -- but the one I found best, and the seats are certainly comfortable to sit on for extended periods (on cushions, held in place with magnets).

 

The hatch size is the normal width that the boatbuilder uses, it's big enough to get everything in and out for boat construction and maintenance (very little needed!), including the cocooned 9kVA generator. There's not really much storage space below it (though everything is accessible) because the stern is full of generator, batteries, isolation transformer, inverter, MPPT controllers, motor and controller, silencers, diesel boiler, calorifier, skin and fuel tanks, cooling fans -- all the boat engineering that generates any noise and/or heat is in there, none of it is inside the living space.

 

I'm not saying this is the best solution for everybody (including the OP), just that it is for me... 🙂

Edited January 18, 2023 by IanD

[PD1964]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

If you look at the photo I sent you'll see that -- unlike a lot of semi-trad sterns -- the "seat backrests" are vertical and there is no bar at the top, because there's a welded inner panel filling this in. With seat cushions on the lockers I can guarantee that these *are* comfortable to sit on (and lean back against), because I've done it 🙂

 

This costs extra to build and a lot of semi-trads don't bother, so you end up with uncomfortable seats -- but this is down to the customer/builder, not an inherent problem with the semi-trad layout.

 

Are your "I've always thought" comments speculation, or based on experience? I've been on many semi-trad (and cruiser, and trad) boats over the years and haven't found any big crowding problem such as you describe even with four people at the stern -- but have found the seats are often uncomfortable, see above comments.

 

It's not obvious from the photo but my semi-trad section is also a bit longer than normal (about 1.7m) so there's rather more seat width than normal, each one is about 65cm wide (plus the curved section next to the doors).

 

I don't have an open bow at all, but if people (e.g. of one sex) want to travel away from the stern (e.g. the other sex) they can always sit in the dinette which has large opening glazed side doors on both sides.

 

I should also point out that another big reason for having a well deck and seats at the bow on a diesel boat is to give a quiet place to sit while cruising, away from the engine noise. Not an issue for a hybrid... 😉

 

Everything on a narrowboat is swings and roundabouts, whatever you choose always has good and bad points, you just have to decide what best suits you -- and this could be very different from somebody else, so don't listen to anyone who says "this is absolutely *the* best solution" -- it might be for them, but not for you...

I was talking about Semi-Trads in general, I prefer Trads, then again there’s only me, I imagine your’s will sit 4 people comfortably, anymore then that it will tight or the steerer will be outside.  

[IanD]

Just now, PD1964 said:

I was talking about Semi-Trads in general, I prefer Trads, then again there’s only me, I imagine your’s will sit 4 people comfortably, anymore then that it will tight or the steerer will be outside.  

I didn't want a trad because you *can't* get 4 people outside at the stern to chat while cruising on a nice day -- for a solo boater or a couple (with an oversized hatch?) they make more sense, and many (like you) prefer them.

 

It will, because the boat is set up to accomodate 4 people... 🙂

[Jon57]

17 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

So that reduces the depth of the seat and consequently the hatch size that gives access to the storage below. That may not be important but if the OP wanted to store a generator in there (with an overboard vent hole) it could be a problem, also, maybe for an anchor. It is all a compromise, leading to what the OP deems is necessary.

 

Out of interest, for how many hours at a stretch have you sat on those or similar seats? I have sat, comfortably, on the picnic chairs, for several hours whilst watching the wildlife of an evening and the sun going down. I can not say the same for bow locker seats that are similar, even with cushions.

Instead of welded back panels. Maybe hardwood infills removable to allow full access to lockers when needed.