New shell or Renovation?

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Jon57 said:

Some old boater told me your third boat will be the boat that ticks all Your boxes. Pity I can’t afford a third.😱😱

That's fine if you can find a secondhand boat which ticks most of your boxes. If you can't or just plain want something different (hopefully not Whitefield!!!) and a refit can't do what you want a new build is the only option -- assuming you can afford it...

Edited January 16, 2023 by IanD

[Jon57]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's fine if you can find a secondhand boat which ticks most of your boxes. If you can't or just plain want something different (hopefully not Whitefield!!!) and a refit can't do what you want a new build is the only option -- assuming you can afford it...

Is this your first boat then. Only 2 to go. 👍😁

[IanD]

Just now, Jon57 said:

Is this your first boat then. Only 2 to go. 👍😁

 

First boat I'll have owned, yes. Given the amount of thought that went into it, hopefully also my last... 😉

[Jon57]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

First boat I'll have owned, yes. Given the amount of thought that went into it, hopefully also my last... 😉

We all say that. Happiest time of your life when you buy a boat and sell one 🤣🤣

[frahkn]

2 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

 

 

After a few rentals and a shareboat for five years we had a list of must-haves and knew exactly what we wanted our own boat to be like.

The one we bought had very little in common with that list  

 

Have you spent much time on boats?

After 30 odd rentals and 11 years sharing we also knew exactly what we wanted.

 

The 70' Orion tug which we bought had remarkably little in common with the 57' boat we set out to buy.

 

I would be a bit concerned about a lack of flexibility in someones requirements.

[IanD]

51 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

We all say that. Happiest time of your life when you buy a boat and sell one 🤣🤣

Look on the bright side though -- if nobody like me had any new boats built, there wouldn't be any secondhand ones for people like you to buy... 😉

[Jon57]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

Look on the bright side though -- if nobody like me had any new boats built, there wouldn't be any secondhand ones for people like you to buy... 😉

Can you build another 1000. First boat I bought from the duck. There were over 1600 for sale. Now only 672.🤣🤣

[IanD]

Just now, Jon57 said:

Can you build another 1000. First boat I bought from the duck. There were over 1600 for sale. Now only 672.🤣🤣

 

Yeah, but you probably wouldn't want to buy one... 😉

[Jon57]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Yeah, but you probably wouldn't want to buy one... 😉

It's only money 🤣

[IanD]

Just now, Jon57 said:

It's only money 🤣

 

Doesn't mean the boat would be what *you* wanted though, does it? 😉

[Jon57]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Doesn't mean the boat would be what *you* wanted though, does it? 😉

What I think I want 🤣

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

What I think I want 🤣

I'm kind of lost here -- is the point you're trying to make that there's no point ever deciding on *anything* in case it turns out to be the wrong decision? 😉

 

Sounds like a recipe for a lifetime of dithering and complete inaction to me -- remember, nothing in life is 100% certain except death and taxes...

Edited January 16, 2023 by IanD

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, frahkn said:

After 30 odd rentals and 11 years sharing we also knew exactly what we wanted.

 

The 70' Orion tug which we bought had remarkably little in common with the 57' boat we set out to buy.

 

I would be a bit concerned about a lack of flexibility in someones requirements.

 

Indeed, hired annually from 1973-1991 (including 2 ex-working boat hires), shared ownership from 1992-2013 (2 different boats with different layouts) and bought my own boat in 2014. Had a very detailed list of requirements but ended up with something with only a few of those listed requirements.

 

Also your requirements change over time, even when you think you know what you want. 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Indeed, hired annually from 1973-1991 (including 2 ex-working boat hires), shared ownership from 1992-2013 (2 different boats with different layouts) and bought my own boat in 2014. Had a very detailed list of requirements but ended up with something with only a few of those listed requirements.

 

Also your requirements change over time, even when you think you know what you want. 

 

Of course if you're looking to buy an existing boat then you have to choose between what's available, and it's unlikely that you'll find a boat which "ticks all the boxes" -- maybe one which ticks a couple of the most important ones and that swings your decision, even if other things aren't what you want -- or even went looking for.

 

All of which is one reason for having a boat built to your exact requirements, if you can afford it -- even if some of the decisions turn out to be wrong (or change), it's still probably closer to your "ideal boat" than buying an existing one.

 

If I could have bought a secondhand boat which was close to what I wanted (60' reverse layout series hybrid), then I might well have done so -- but I couldn't. I'm not under any illusion that *everything" will come out perfectly first time, but hopefully most of it will, and anything which doesn't can be changed. At a price... 😞

[enigmatic]

A big advantage of buying a used boat with the intention of doing DIY is that you can decide you've done enough DIY already and stop.

 

Pick a boat that has a bedroom at the bow and a cruiser stern (you will find one you like in a shorter timescale than it'd take to get a sailaway built for you, they're not rare. Look for "reverse layout"). Then you can change stuff you don't like about the boat like flooring and paint and panels and tiles and curtains and shelving and kitchen cabinets and built in seating and shower tray and lighting and a towel radiator and more 12v sockets and a cupboard over the bed and cratch covers and decorative flourishes when you've got time and you don't want to be boating

 

 

 

[Barneyp]

To go back to the original question, I see 2 problems with buying a second hand boat to strip out and re fit.

 

Firstly the time, effort, and disposal costs of the strip out. Stripping out an entire narrowboat will create a huge amount of waste material, all of which will have to be taken out of the cabin through relatively small door ways and then transported to the disposal point - probably a skip(s) which will have to be paid for.

 

Secondly a second hand boat has a second hand (corroded hull), the only boats without significant corrosion are likely to be well looked after and/or not very old, which means the fit out is also likely to be in good condition and the price will reflect this.

 

Either a sailaway will be cheaper, or you will spend time money and effort fitting out a substandard hull.

 

I'm guessing you might get a good price on someone else's part completed project, or a boat that has been sunk and recovered.

[Slim]

20 hours ago, frahkn said:

Welcome to the forum Crabby.

 

Taking everything you have posted at face value, particularly "we will probably totally gut the interior and change the layout", I would go for the new shell option.

 

This will be more work and expense than you estimate (about 3 times as much) but it will be less than doing essentially the same thing but with the strip-out and the resultant mess and uncertainty added.

 

Having said that, I would do neither but instead buy a second hand boat within your budget and use it for a year or two. It will be an essential learning platform, allowing you to decide what you really need from your final boat.  (Which may turn out to be neither a cruiser stern nor a reverse layout).

 

Frank

I too would go for a new shell. That what I did 27 years ago when 

faced with exactly the same situation, never regreted it. Apart from anything else you will decide where windows, doors, vents and many other things go.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Slim

[LadyG]

9 hours ago, Slim said:

I too would go for a new shell. That what I did 27 years ago when 

faced with exactly the same situation, never regreted it. Apart from anything else you will decide where windows, doors, vents and many other things go.

 

 

 

 

 

It depends on availability and also budget, any absolute essentials: I'm quite happy with my window / porthole layout, solid reliable engine, and the foam insulation, plus it has a nice "look" about it. I'd never buy a new boat as I'd rather keep the capital, bricks and mortar if possible.

I'd never buy a project for renovation unless I had all the skills plenty of cash and two years to waste.

I see quite a few widebeams which are so ugly that I would never buy them. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by LadyG

[MtB]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

I see quite a few widebeams which are so ugly that I would never buy them. 

 

 

One of the wonderful joys of the Oxford and the Coventry is the total absence of widebeams.

 

 

 

 

(Cue a long string of photos of widebeams on the Oxford and on the Coventry, lol!)

 

[roland elsdon]

Ive had 7 boats . All totally different. They suited my life at that point. None have been new 4 have been at least 21 years older than me.

 

The current ? Last one is far from perfect but it suits our current needs.

We arenot fixed in time and space.

[IanD]

On 16/01/2023 at 09:20, CrabbyPatty said:

Thank you for your replies.

 

We have renovated our current house, which of course ended up costing far more and taking far longer than expected, so I am expecting this to be the same.  I am aware of how disgustingly messy this could get ripping out the old fit out and insulation. I am expecting to have to have this out of the water for the majority of the work, as it is easier and more socially acceptable (for obvious reasons).

 

We had planned to do this for a year, before moving onto it.  We are able to take our time with this and planned to do so.

 

The cruiser stern and having the bedroom at the front are both deal breakers for us both tbh.  My husband is messy, we have a dog and I get migraines sometimes.  So I really would prefer to have the kitchen or living area at the stern for ease of cleaning and for peace on my migraine days in my bed.

 

 

Not in any way saying your decision is wrong *for you*, but just wondering why you're so keen on a cruiser stern?

 

They can be nice and sociable to travel on in summer (which is often what people have hire boat experience of), but can also be horrible when it's cold and windy and the rain is lashing down. They can also pose a problem if your dog is keen on water, unless you have a stern closed off with railings/dodger and opening doors -- which many boaters don't like. Depending on how they're built they can also be prone to filling up the bilges with rainwater in winter, especially if leaves block any drains -- again less of an issue for a hire boat, but not so good if you're going to leave it moored unattended in the rainy season.

 

For these reasons the majority of long-term/liveaboards tend to favour trad or semi-trad sterns -- of course both these also have their disadvantages... 😉

Edited January 17, 2023 by IanD

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

One of the wonderful joys of the Oxford and the Coventry is the total absence of widebeams.

 

 

 

 

(Cue a long string of photos of widebeams on the Oxford and on the Coventry, lol!)

 

 

I started a thread about widebeams on the Coventry a few years ago.

 

 

[manxmike]

When we bought our nb I approached the whole thing with a totally open mind. Over the years I have hired and borrowed boats from friends, I had a fair idea of what would work for us, but in the end those ideas went out of the window.

I loved the boat we eventually ended up with - trad stern (bl**dy awkward for my wife who has MS) mid galley and toilet/shower, front saloon and rear bedroom. It worked, we thought we would strip it out and re-fit, but we ended up just enjoying the boat instead.

We were lucky to have bought the boat at the bottom of the market, long before prices went through the roof and became silly. Next time we will almost certainly buy a share in a boat - living on the Isle of Man it's a bit difficult to pop over at the weekend to make sure leaves haven't blocked the drain holes!

[ChrisRichmond94]

Good luck with it all!

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, manxmike said:

When we bought our nb I approached the whole thing with a totally open mind. Over the years I have hired and borrowed boats from friends, I had a fair idea of what would work for us, but in the end those ideas went out of the window.

I loved the boat we eventually ended up with - trad stern (bl**dy awkward for my wife who has MS) mid galley and toilet/shower, front saloon and rear bedroom. It worked, we thought we would strip it out and re-fit, but we ended up just enjoying the boat instead.

We were lucky to have bought the boat at the bottom of the market, long before prices went through the roof and became silly. Next time we will almost certainly buy a share in a boat - living on the Isle of Man it's a bit difficult to pop over at the weekend to make sure leaves haven't blocked the drain holes!

I have a trad with barriers at the back, formerly seat supports, they are perfect for me getting on the boat, as I have a good grip at the right height, I can lean on them occasionally when steering. The alternative would be to have a good handle on the rear bulkhead, but then you only have one hand on the boat.

Edited January 17, 2023 by LadyG