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New shell or Renovation?


CrabbyPatty

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Hi all, I am looking at buying my first canal boat and I am debating buying a brand new shell or buying an old boat to renovate ourselves.  I have been looking at boats for a while and none are fitting my super fussy criteria.  My husband and I are both handy and able to do most DIY ourselves, both metal and woodwork, plumbing and electrics, along with help from my father who is amazing with most things.

 

We will be living in this boat on and off.  Going off for about 20 weeks of the year to work and probably other occasions to travel around in our camper, so I want to build it as our full time home. 

 

I want to have a cruiser stern and a reverse layout, and a more open plan living space.

 

I intend to have a permanent mooring in a marina, so we always have somewhere to keep her when we are off working or travelling, and to park our vehicle.

 

The budget is not a big limitation, but I would rather keep it as low as possible, so I can invest elsewhere for the future tbh.

 

Please could I have some advice as to which way is best to go, with buying a new sailaway, or getting a good second hand base?  Bearing in mind, we will probably totally gut the interior and change the layout. (seeing as am struggling to find the layout I want)

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Welcome to the forum Crabby.

 

Taking everything you have posted at face value, particularly "we will probably totally gut the interior and change the layout", I would go for the new shell option.

 

This will be more work and expense than you estimate (about 3 times as much) but it will be less than doing essentially the same thing but with the strip-out and the resultant mess and uncertainty added.

 

Having said that, I would do neither but instead buy a second hand boat within your budget and use it for a year or two. It will be an essential learning platform, allowing you to decide what you really need from your final boat.  (Which may turn out to be neither a cruiser stern nor a reverse layout).

 

Frank

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The standard forum answer to a question like this is that although you may think you know exactly what you want (with your super fussy criteria), your ideas will change as you live on your first boat and you won't really know what you want until you've lived on it for a few years. 

 

For that reason it's likely to be more cost effective and less wasteful in terms of time & resources to buy a used boat which fits some of your criteria and then either refit the parts that don't suit you, or live with it for a few years and then sell it on and build your perfect boat.

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With an older boat you can use it in between the progressive updates of individual rooms or systems. With an empty shell you are really committing yourself to a year or two of solid work until it is cruise capable  - unless you are willing to simply camp inside it.

 

Also be aware most marinas are not keen / will not allow you to do major work on the boat whilst on your mooring. You will most likely either have to move it to a dedicated work area on dry land or some where it on the cut (without power). 

 

People have successfully done both options. I know I have chosen the rebuild/refit route and been glad I have 

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You could cost out a s sail away.  The shell, painted, windows fitted, engine, stern gear, controls. spray foamed, lined, electrical bits with tails, water tank, calorifier, heater, enough to have a boat to live on while you fit out the inside to your liking.  Then see what you can get for the same money on the second hand market.  Remember, you will need more money to finish the sail away or strip out a boat and refit it. Either way it will be a building site.

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Thank you for your replies.

 

We have renovated our current house, which of course ended up costing far more and taking far longer than expected, so I am expecting this to be the same.  I am aware of how disgustingly messy this could get ripping out the old fit out and insulation. I am expecting to have to have this out of the water for the majority of the work, as it is easier and more socially acceptable (for obvious reasons).

 

We had planned to do this for a year, before moving onto it.  We are able to take our time with this and planned to do so.

 

The cruiser stern and having the bedroom at the front are both deal breakers for us both tbh.  My husband is messy, we have a dog and I get migraines sometimes.  So I really would prefer to have the kitchen or living area at the stern for ease of cleaning and for peace on my migraine days in my bed.

 

 

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Another factor to take into account is few marinas are going to tolerate you doing a strip out and full refit (or even just a full fit-out of a new shell) on your mooring pontoon. And even if you find one that will, your neighbouring moorers probably won't. 

 

This needs doing in a shed renting on a farm somewhere, really. 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, CrabbyPatty said:

Hi all, I am looking at buying my first canal boat and I am debating buying a brand new shell or buying an old boat to renovate ourselves.  I have been looking at boats for a while and none are fitting my super fussy criteria.  My husband and I are both handy and able to do most DIY ourselves, both metal and woodwork, plumbing and electrics, along with help from my father who is amazing with most things.

 

We will be living in this boat on and off.  Going off for about 20 weeks of the year to work and probably other occasions to travel around in our camper, so I want to build it as our full time home. 

 

I want to have a cruiser stern and a reverse layout, and a more open plan living space.

 

I intend to have a permanent mooring in a marina, so we always have somewhere to keep her when we are off working or travelling, and to park our vehicle.

 

The budget is not a big limitation, but I would rather keep it as low as possible, so I can invest elsewhere for the future tbh.

 

Please could I have some advice as to which way is best to go, with buying a new sailaway, or getting a good second hand base?  Bearing in mind, we will probably totally gut the interior and change the layout. (seeing as am struggling to find the layout I want)

A big question is what is your timescale..... second hand boats available now, but timescales on new sailaways might be quite long?

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36 minutes ago, CrabbyPatty said:

We have renovated our current house, which of course ended up costing far more and taking far longer than expected, so I am expecting this to be the same. 

 

9 hours ago, CrabbyPatty said:

Bearing in mind, we will probably totally gut the interior and change the layout. (seeing as am struggling to find the layout I want)

 

 

Just be aware that there are 'rules and regulations' about what you can use and not use when fitting out a boat (a couple of examples being the types and sizes of cables and the types / sizes of gas pipes)

 

You have mentioned that you are OK with electrics, but, if you wire the boat up the same way you did your house then it will fail its safety test. - eg you cannot use 'Twin and Earth' cable - you MUST use specific sizes of mutistranded flexible wires and cables.

 

There are ISO standards for boat wiring, they were :

 

ISO 10133 (for the low voltage 12v DC systems), and 

ISO13297 (for the 230v AC 'mains')

 

But as of 2020 these two are now combined into one specification.

 

ISO - ISO 13297:2020 - Small craft — Electrical systems — Alternating and direct current installations

 

Then there are similar specifications for plumbing, gas systems, fuel systems etc.

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A full renovation on an older boat should really involve looking at the insulation, which will most likely need removing and replacing with something more modern.

This will lead to full de-rusting and painting of the shell interior....so Much more work than fitting out a new shell.

 

A refitted old boat will always be an old boat no matter how much you spend on the fiy-out, so not a good investment.

 

The only reasons for a full strip and refit are:

The boat has historic value

The boat has sentimental value

You just love huge DIY projects and will enjoy every minute of it.

You are very short of money but have a lot of spare time (and skills).

 

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32 minutes ago, dmr said:

You are very short of money but have a lot of spare time (and skills).

 

 

Not sure I entirely buy this one. The cost of a strip and re-fit of an old boat will FAR exceed the cost of the fitting out a new shell. The main benefit if you bleed the money in over a few years rather than finding the upfront cost of the shell on day one.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Not sure I entirely buy this one. The cost of a strip and re-fit of an old boat will FAR exceed the cost of the fitting out a new shell. The main benefit if you bleed the money in over a few years rather than finding the upfront cost of the shell on day one.

 

 

I suspect this is actually the main reason that most big refits happen, or maybe I forgot another reason.....wild optimism and totally underestimating the size of the project 😀

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Does anyone know the cheapest method of buying a copy of ISO13297:2020 ?  The ISO website charges a huge amount of money!

 

 

Just be aware that there are 'rules and regulations' about what you can use and not use when fitting out a boat (a couple of examples being the types and sizes of cables and the types / sizes of gas pipes)

 

You have mentioned that you are OK with electrics, but, if you wire the boat up the same way you did your house then it will fail its safety test. - eg you cannot use 'Twin and Earth' cable - you MUST use specific sizes of mutistranded flexible wires and cables.

 

There are ISO standards for boat wiring, they were :

 

ISO 10133 (for the low voltage 12v DC systems), and 

ISO13297 (for the 230v AC 'mains')

 

But as of 2020 these two are now combined into one specification.

 

ISO - ISO 13297:2020 - Small craft — Electrical systems — Alternating and direct current installations

 

Then there are similar specifications for plumbing, gas systems, fuel systems etc.

 

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Mr Fish

Does anyone know the cheapest method of buying a copy of ISO13297:2020 ?  The ISO website charges a huge amount of money!

 

All ISO standards are a huge amount of money wherever you uy them from.

 

Manchester Central Library used to have all the standards needed available for 'free use' but I think that may have now been stopped.

 

The RYA (at one time) had all the standards needed for the RCD / RCR which were available to members - Now the RYA has decided to no longer administer the RCD / RCR scheme  for the UK Government I have no idea if they still have this service.

 

 

I have the 'old' (individual) ISO standards which have been combined together to form the 2020 issue but have no idea if there have been any changes in the requirements.

 

You are welcome to copies if you send me a PM with your email address.

 

The problem you have with all of these specifications is it will say for example :

 

(ISO 13297) "All wiring must use flexible cables to ISO 12345", when you read ISO 12345, it leads you to " all insulation must comply with fire retardency to ISO 34567"

 

You can easliy get lost down the Rabbit hole.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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What a lot seem to forget with buying an old one to strip out and refit, when it comes to changing layout you are stuck with the original window, skin fitting (sink & shower waste) and roof vent placement unless you are a dab hand with a welder. Could end up with portholes in the galley and big bus windows in the loo & bedroom if you’re not careful.

 

After a few rentals and a shareboat for five years we had a list of must-haves and knew exactly what we wanted our own boat to be like.

The one we bought had very little in common with that list :D 

 

Have you spent much time on boats?

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2 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

What a lot seem to forget with buying an old one to strip out and refit, when it comes to changing layout you are stuck with the original window, skin fitting (sink & shower waste) and roof vent placement unless you are a dab hand with a welder. Could end up with portholes in the galley and big bus windows in the loo & bedroom if you’re not careful.

 

After a few rentals and a shareboat for five years we had a list of must-haves and knew exactly what we wanted our own boat to be like.

The one we bought had very little in common with that list :D 

 

Have you spent much time on boats?

 

On the other hand I have only bought one boat and it fitted my list exactly. However my list may not be typical. Aquadrive, gas central heating, dinette, cruiser stern, gas bottles in a rear locker and the shortest distance between the bow and the forward bulkhead The Bukh engine was a very happy bonus. It must have been OK because apart from remodeling the back cabin to get more storage, a stove and a sitting area in we kept it for 20+ years. The bulk of my past experience had been with wooden and GRP cruisers.

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7 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

What a lot seem to forget with buying an old one to strip out and refit, when it comes to changing layout you are stuck with the original window, skin fitting (sink & shower waste) and roof vent placement unless you are a dab hand with a welder. Could end up with portholes in the galley and big bus windows in the loo & bedroom if you’re not careful.

 

After a few rentals and a shareboat for five years we had a list of must-haves and knew exactly what we wanted our own boat to be like.

The one we bought had very little in common with that list :D 

 

Have you spent much time on boats?

Yes if the original poster isn’t careful could end up with something like this on their hands 

55CA8D42-5F88-4332-9CDA-DC04E172E915.png

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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Mr Fish

Does anyone know the cheapest method of buying a copy of ISO13297:2020 ?  The ISO website charges a huge amount of money!

 

All ISO standards are a huge amount of money wherever you uy them from.

 

Manchester Central Library used to have all the standards needed available for 'free use' but I think that may have now been stopped.

 

The RYA (at one time) had all the standards needed for the RCD / RCR which were available to members - Now the RYA has decided to no longer administer the RCD / RCR scheme  for the UK Government I have no idea if they still have this service.

 

 

I have the 'old' (individual) ISO standards which have been combined to for the 2020 issue but have no idea if there have been any changes in the requirements.

 

You are welcome to copies if you send me a PM with your email address.

 

The problem you have with all of these specifications is it will say for example :

 

(ISO 13297) "All wiring must use flexible cables to ISO 12345", when you read ISO 12345, it leads you to " all insulation must comply with fire retardency to ISO 34567"

 

You can easliy get lost down the Rabbit hole.

Well i have managed to find a cheaper source. Each country has its own standards and accreditation authority who are allowed to sell copies of EN-ISO standards. I have just now bought a pdf version from the Estonia accreditation authority. You have to follow a simple registration process with them. this allowed me to buy a single user license for ISO13297:2020 with amendment 1 for just over 22 Euros. The pdf required an installation if FileOpen whichis a plugin for Acrobat that allows opening of a secured document. The restrictions are that the pdf can only opened on a single computer and an only be printed twice (the printed version shows the name of the person it is registered to). This is fine for me. And yes it is the English version. A darn site cheaper than buying from ISO direct!

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1 minute ago, MrFish said:

Well i have managed to find a cheaper source. Each country has its own standards and accreditation authority who are allowed to sell copies of EN-ISO standards. I have just now bought a pdf version from the Estonia accreditation authority. You have to follow a simple registration process with them. this allowed me to buy a single user license for ISO13297:2020 with amendment 1 for just over 22 Euros. The pdf required an installation if FileOpen whichis a plugin for Acrobat that allows opening of a secured document. The restrictions are that the pdf can only opened on a single computer and an only be printed twice (the printed version shows the name of the person it is registered to). This is fine for me. And yes it is the English version. A darn site cheaper than buying from ISO direct!

 

 

Good find - are you fitting out a boat to RCR compliance ?

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41 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

What a lot seem to forget with buying an old one to strip out and refit, when it comes to changing layout you are stuck with the original window, skin fitting (sink & shower waste) and roof vent placement unless you are a dab hand with a welder. Could end up with portholes in the galley and big bus windows in the loo & bedroom if you’re not careful.

 

After a few rentals and a shareboat for five years we had a list of must-haves and knew exactly what we wanted our own boat to be like.

The one we bought had very little in common with that list :D 

 

Have you spent much time on boats?

 

I'm having a new boat built now, which happens to be reverse layout (not open-plan, for specific reasons) but with a semi-trad stern. After booking a build slot but before build started I spent about a year looking at all the possible layouts and systems and discussing them with the boatbuilder, based on what I'd found worked for me (and didn't) over many years of hiring and spending time on lots of boats of all types -- hired and private -- with different layouts and features.

 

What works best for one person won't necessarily work for another, for example normal/reverse layout, type of stern, toilets, propulsion -- everything is a compromise with a narrowboat, there's no perfect solution, you just have to look at all the pros and cons and decide what is most important to you. But nothing beats having tried some of them out in real life and found the disadvantages that the proponents don't tell you about... 😉

 

Some ideas got changed, some were thrown out completely, other new ones emerged, but all with practical feedback. There are lots of things that look good on paper but don't work so well in practice, or sound nice and "woo-hoo" (especially in a magazine or website review!) but have unexpected issues in real life. And then when the boat is actually being built you still find things that need changing or adjusting because they somehow don't work or fit in quite like they did on the plan.

 

I reckon this must be up to at least version 50 by now and is still being updated on a weekly basis as the build progresses...

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5 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I'm having a new boat built now, which happens to be reverse layout (not open-plan, for specific reasons) but with a semi-trad stern. After booking a build slot but before build started I spent about a year looking at all the possible layouts and systems and discussing them with the boatbuilder, based on what I'd found worked for me (and didn't) over many years of hiring and spending time on lots of boats of all types -- hired and private -- with different layouts and features.

 

What works best for one person won't necessarily work for another, for example normal/reverse layout, type of stern, toilets, propulsion -- everything is a compromise with a narrowboat, there's no perfect solution, you just have to look at all the pros and cons and decide what is most important to you. But nothing beats having tried some of them out in real life and found the disadvantages that the proponents don't tell you about... 😉

 

Some ideas got changed, some were thrown out completely, other new ones emerged, but all with practical feedback. There are lots of things that look good on paper but don't work so well in practice, or sound nice and "woo-hoo" (especially in a magazine or website review!) but have unexpected issues in real life. And then when the boat is actually being built you still find things that need changing or adjusting because they somehow don't work or fit in quite like they did on the plan.

 

I reckon this must be up to at least version 50 by now and is still being updated on a weekly basis as the build progresses...

Some old boater told me your third boat will be the boat that ticks all Your boxes. Pity I can’t afford a third.😱😱

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