Purchasing without a survey?

[Jennarasion]

Hi guys, complete newbie here.

Ive just found a 1975 cruiser stern 40ft liveaboard. Needs remodeling, but from what I could see everything was working. (I still have to wrap my head around the electrics, but thats a different post). The boat is only 8k, which is cheap as chips as far as I'm concerned.

Obviously, everyone says that you need a survey before buying a boat, to know what condition the hull is in. I wanted to go this route too, but Ive just discovered that there are no easy ways to get the boat out of water where I am (two local marinas, 1 the slipway isn't ready, the others crane isnt in service).

I know that the hull has had some overplating in the past (maybe 2012). I think the last survey was 2008, the interior of the hull couldn't be accessed. 

The current owner has continously cruised on it for 6 years, last blacking was 5 years ago. 

How likely is it that the hull is in shambles? Assuming the absolute worst and the hull needs to be completely replated, could this be done when I take it out the water to black it? Would whoever is doing it know and recommend it? Ive heard that its worse when the boat is in a marina (which i plan to be in), so is it theoretically not too bad at the moment? 

[David Mack]

At £8k it's hardly worth spending the thick end of a grand on getting it surveyed. So the question is, can you afford to lose £8k if it turns out to be a colander?  If it needs overplating then that will cost more than the boat is worth, so probably not worth doing unless the boat is something very special.

Just be aware that without an out-of-water hull survey with all recommendations carried out, you will only be able to get third party insurance.

[Alan de Enfield]

Can you afford to lose the £8k as, if it turns out to be a 'scrapper' it has no value.

 

As has been said you cannot get fully comprehensve insurance on a boat that old without having a survey, so it can only be insured for 3rd party (meaning if it damged, or sinks, then it and the contents are not insured).

 

Not been blacked for 5 years, overplated ........................... all the warning signs are there.

 

Think very carefully, turn around, and run away.

 

If £8k is all you can afford then with a steel boat you will be buying something that is almost certainly going to need many £000's spending on it - the alternative is that you could get a GOOD Fibreglass (GRP) cruiser for that money.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Tam & Di]

So you're looking at a boat built getting on for 50 years ago that was surveyed 15 years ago but did have some patches put on 10 years ago, and was blacked 5 years ago, by implication that was when the current owner bought it. It is very cheap, as you say, but the chances that it (and its engine) will not need an urgent input of money in the near future are fairly remote. You don't say who built the hull, so the calibre of build is unknown.

It seems like the current owner lives on board and has got 5 years out of it - you might get the same, but it is a big risk. The marina will doubtless want to see insurance that covers 'third party and recovery of wreck'. Whatever is said on here it is you who has to decide if the risks are worth it. Good luck to you.

 

Tam

[Tony Brooks]

and the original hull may have been 6mm thick or less, including the base plate. I agree, if you cam afford to burn 8 grand then buy it and hope, otherwise walk away with your money intact.

[BEngo]

Complete newbie.  47 year old boat. Overplated maybe 10 years ago, not much looked after  for 14 years. (No info about the engine, but likely to be at least elderly) 

 

Unless you are a scrap man, a welder or a masochistic I cannot see that this boat is a sensible buy, even if you dont mind losing most of your money (Provided  it doesn't sink the engine should make  a few quid if  in running order).

 

N

[howardang]

I think the responses point to the decision you would be advised to take, unless you are waiting for someone to disagree and encourage you to take the plunge. However, as has been pointed out it is only you that can make the decision to go ahead or not. Please let us know what you decide.

 

Alan has made a very positive suggestion in that for the same amount of money you should  be able to find a reasonable GRP cruiser, an alternative which may be worth following. 

This suggestion may well be worth pursuing.  Good luck.

 

Howard

[Arthur Marshall]

My forty footer was replated about twenty years ago and needed urgently doing again about four years ago, which cost about £9000, and it had never been left five years between blackings. Engine and gearbox repairs have cost about £6000 over the past ten years.

Old boats cost money (so do new ones, but with old ones things happen unexpectedly!).

[Mad Harold]

Not being a gambling man, I wouldn't touch it.

Alan De Enfield's advice is I think sound. For £8K you can get a decent grp cruiser although for living aboard (which I assume is your intention in a marina) a grp boat will need heating and insulation, which they don't usually come with as standard.If you are not going to cruise, then you won't be limited to narrow beam cruisers.For some reason that I can't explain,wider beam river/estuary cruisers seem to be cheaper than the narrow beam ones, plus the wider beam ones usually have a proper engine with shaft drive and not a poxy little outboard.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

(which I assume is your intention in a marina)

 

In which case the question of insulation is almost academic - cheap electric (compared to producing your own) means that electric heaters can be on virtually pemanently.

[Mad Harold]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In which case the question of insulation is almost academic - cheap electric (compared to producing your own) means that electric heaters can be on virtually pemanently.

Yes but, I have had an uninsulated grp boat, and when the heater was turned off it was freezing within about ten minutes.

Where is this cheap electric by the way?

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Yes but, I have had an uninsulated grp boat, and when the heater was turned off it was freezing within about ten minutes.

 

 

Using an oil-filled radiator with a thermostat allows you to leave it on ticking-over and maintaining a reasonable temperature - although we do tend to use the Eberspacher in the same way, put it on when we get on the boat, set the thermostat and it stays on until we leave the boat, weeks or months later.

 

11 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Where is this cheap electric by the way?

 

Our marina has recently gone up to 28p / unit.

 

It was calculated some time ago that using your boat engine to generate electricity could be between £2 and £3 per unit (probably higher now with the price of fuel)

If I remember there was a 'costed' suggestion that including engine wear, depreciation, oil changes and servicing etc etc it could in fact be over £5 per unit.

 

I did say :

 

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

..................cheap electric (compared to producing your own)...................

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

 a grp boat will need heating and insulation, which they don't usually come with as standard.

 

Many will have some kind of heating, eberspacher or similar and, if not, they are not too difficult to fit. In fact, there are many cheaper makes available these days.

 

I spent a lot of time on my GRP boat in Glasson Dock during the winter of 2009/10 and, once the eberspacher had got to temperature, it was nice and cosy 24/7. Much less hassle than keeping the stove on my current narrowboat topped up, and the temperature regulated.

[Arthur Marshall]

So lets say it need total resteeling, bottom and sides. Mine was nine grand, be a lot more now as steel has gone up, say fifteen at the most. If the engine's ok, you've still got the equivalent of a brand new hulled boat for 23K. So it depend on how much the inside refurb will cost, which will be a few grand if you do it yourself and a lot more if you don't. Now check what you can get for that lot instead.

[Tony1]

I would not touch that boat, unless you have access to another £5-10k as a minimum for first year or two of repair bills- and preferably even more. 

 

As Alan says, at that price level a GRP boat is a safer bet financially, and in terms of presenting you with fewer big bills to fix it in the first year or two.

Its smaller and less pleasant to live aboard, but your 8k investment will not be written off overnight by an overplating bill or a massive engine issue.

This is just a random example from apollo duck, and I havent even looked at the details on it, but if you can stretch to £10k this sort of boat might stay afloat for considerably longer than the 8k boat.  

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/creighton-27-for-sale/715659

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Tony1

[enigmatic]

18 hours ago, Jennarasion said:

Ive just found a 1975 cruiser stern 40ft liveaboard...

The boat is only 8 grand...

I know that the hull has had some overplating in the past (maybe 2012). I think the last survey was 2008, the interior of the hull couldn't be accessed. 

The current owner has continously cruised on it for 6 years, last blacking was 5 years ago. 

How likely is it that the hull is in shambles? 

I would say pretty likely

 

It's a punt. You might get a cheap-ish boat that needs time and money spending on it, you might get a money pit on the verge of sinking. The price, lack of recent blacking and age point to the latter.

 

The patching might have covered the hull and solved all the problems of decades of rust 10 years ago, or it might have been an indication that 10 years later the bits not patched would be in a world of trouble. It might have been done well, or it might have been done badly.

 

Proper replating it might need would cost you a lot more than £8k. Interior work may not be as cheap or straightforward as you hope and you'll be doing your own exterior repaint, although it sounds like it is at least livable. In fairness, you might get a fair bit over £20k for it in current markets after you'd done the work.

 

 

Edit: also, have you looked into marina cost and availability? Annual cost of a marina berth is a sizeable fraction of that boat price, and not all marinas want scruffy boats with people doing work on them...

Edited January 16, 2023 by enigmatic

[enigmatic]

11 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I would not touch that boat, unless you have access to another £5-10k as a minimum, and preferably even more. 

 

As Alan says, at that price level a GRP boat is a safer bet financially, and in terms of presenting you with fewer big bills to fix it in the first year or two.

Its smaller and less pleasant to live aboard, but your 8k investment will not be written off overnight by an overplating bill or a massive engine issue.

This is just a random example from apollo duck, and I havent even looked at the details on it, but if you can stretch to £10k this sort of boat might stay afloat for considerably longer than the 8k boat.  

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/creighton-27-for-sale/715659

tbf I wouldn't buy that boat for liveaboard use either. Exposed centre cockpit between the cabins and a British winter don't go well together...

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In which case the question of insulation is almost academic - cheap electric (compared to producing your own) means that electric heaters can be on virtually pemanently.

Apart from the condensation!

[MtB]

I'd buy it. 

 

I'd buy it, then survey it. If a near-colander I'd put it back up for sale on The Duck for £10k complete with honest survey. Any steel boat that floats, goes , has a BSS and a recent survey must be worth £10k. Someone would buy it. 

 

If the survey was ok or good I'd keep it and just get on with using it. 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

for someone with no scruples that’d work

[system 4-50]

Is there a reason for sale?

[Tony1]

47 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

tbf I wouldn't buy that boat for liveaboard use either. Exposed centre cockpit between the cabins and a British winter don't go well together...

 

Its certainly true that in winter the middle deck part is not liveable, but you still have the two cabins so its not that bad.

But yes, I'd look for a single long cabin (there are some at about 26ft)- because heating two separate cabins is going to be a pain.

That was just a random example of a GRP tbh.

I think I would consider the two-cabin type if I could get a viking 32cc, because thats long enough that the rear cabin would be mainly storage, so no need to heat it for long periods. 

 

 

 

[Jennarasion]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. 8k would be a big expense for me to burn 😂 I was obviously hoping for better news, but hearing honest input was why I went here in the first place. I think ill keep looking for the one lol.

Thanks for advising on grp boats, ill look into them some more, but as you said i was looking to live aboard. If the insulation is a problem then it probably wouldnt be the right one for me either 

[LadyG]

12 hours ago, Goliath said:

for someone with no scruples that’d work

Read the post again

[Arthur Marshall]

9 hours ago, Jennarasion said:

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. 8k would be a big expense for me to burn 😂 I was obviously hoping for better news, but hearing honest input was why I went here in the first place. I think ill keep looking for the one lol.

Thanks for advising on grp boats, ill look into them some more, but as you said i was looking to live aboard. If the insulation is a problem then it probably wouldnt be the right one for me either 

The real danger signal, I feel, isn't the original overplating but the fact that the current owner hasn't bothered to black it in five years. With my old boat, I'd reduced the original three year gap to two, as much as to get an idea of the hull state as anything. Turned out it was only the bitumen keeping the water out.

They tell me you can leave the epoxy two pack stuff longer between blacking,  but it does indicate that the owner didn't expect to keep the boat and couldn't be bothered with much maintenance, probably of anything, especially if,  as you indicate, the innards have been ignored too.