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Which liveaboard is best?


VincePam

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Hi all

 

I recently joined this community as I am keen to move asap on a liveaboard fed up as we are of the usual routine. I live in Cambridge at present and have a wife and several kids, the last one of which still living with us and going to college. We both work mostly remotely from home. I am a long term sailor but know very little - literally a newbie on canal and river boats.

We are looking for one where to live full time, including my college son, and work from. So needs to be comfortable enough to allow us to stick together for longer that a week, but hopefully not too big to be requiring to much maintenance time and money. We will be living in a marina, so electricity should be available.

As soon as we started looking for which is best, we got confused. Potentially narrow boats are less attractive either because too narrow or too expensive. We stumbled upon various cruisers on the web, but I am really unable to tell which could be a good choice, being a reliable one, low maintenance, with enough space for a relatively low budget (up to 50k). We saw some good priced options, including ex rentals, but I haven't got a clue what the dark side of any river boat is.

 

Grateful if you can help me navigating this opportunity and making the right choice!

 

Thanks

Edited by VincePam
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32 minutes ago, VincePam said:

Potentially narrow boats are less attractive either because too narrow or too expensive.

 

Narrowboats are considerably cheaper than widebeams - if you compare like for like, not only more expensive to buy, but more expensive to licence and mooring costs are generally much higher than a narrow boat (you can get two NB's in the space a widebeam takes up)

 

Typically a new NB will be around £150,000 and a widebeam will be £250,000.

Actual size matters and anything over 7' 6" beam is classed as a widebeam. Mine is 14 foot beam.

What do you consider to be a 'widebeam' ?

 

32 minutes ago, VincePam said:

We stumbled upon various cruisers on the web

 

If by 'cruiser' you mean a GRP boat - then yes, these will be much cheaper than a steel Narrowboat and a 'small fraction' of the cost of a steel widebeam, but 2 main issues - you will struggle to find a GRP cruiser that can use the Canals any bigger than about 36 feet length.

If you are going to stay on Rivers then you can find bigger GRP cruisers up to 40-45 feet length

The other point is that generally a GRP cruiser is not insulated and makes a very poor (cold) liveaboard boat unless you rip-out the insides, have it insulated and then refitted, by which time you may as well have bought a narrowboat.

 

When looking at sizes remember that a boat is 3 dimensional and a few feet in any direction makes a huge difference - see the picture of a 36 foot  GRP canal 'narrowboat' next  to my 36 foot GRP 'widebeam'.

 

Whilst we do not liveaboard our Cruiser - we could. She has been insulated and has full diesel 'central heating' and we spend 6 or 7 months on her at a time - plenty of room with a king-size bed and ensuite bathroom in the master cabin, lounge dining room and another bathroom & cabin in the bow.

She is too big for the canals, but we used her on the Rivers before taking her back to the sea.

 

You need to go and look at a few boats "in the flesh" compare sizes and layouts as on many occasions a smaller boat can actually have a better layout and more usable room, than a poorly laid out bigger boat.

 

 

 

 

CAM00019.jpg

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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GRP River Broads cruisers built for hire are likely to be very sturdy hull wise but may have a lot of berths for the space and not so much storage, but it is always possible to remove berths and fit storage in their place. More often than not hire boats are deigned for easier maintenance rather than gizmos and aesthetics. There is one fleet on the Broads that I would be wary of maintenance wise, but generally boats coming out of hire have often been fairly well maintained because otherwise breakdowns become expensive. If you provide links to what interests you we may be able to comment.

 

I think, on balance, good GRP needs less maintenance than steel hulls although it can look scruffy.

 

GRP cruisers are likely to be less well thermally insulated and sliding wheel houses tend to be very drafty, whatever you do with them

Edited by Tony Brooks
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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Narrowboats are considerably cheaper than widebeams - if you compare like for like, not only more expensive to buy, but more expensive to licence and mooring costs are generally much higher than a narrow boat (you can get to NB's in the space a widebeam takes up)

 

Typically a new NB will be around £150,000 and a widebeam will be £250,000.

Actual size matters and anything over 7' 6" beam is classed as a widebeam. Mine is 14 foot beam.

What do you consider to be a 'widebeam' ?

 

 

If by 'cruiser' you mean a GRP boat - then yes, these will be much cheaper than a steel Narrowboat and a 'small fraction' of the cost of a steel widebeam, but 2 main issues - you will struggle to find a GRP cruiser that can use the Canals any bigger than about 36 feet length.

If you are going to stay on Rivers then you can find bigger GRP cruisers up to 40-45 feet length

The other point is that generally a GRP cruiser is not insulated and makes a very poor (cold) liveaboard boat unless you rip-out the insides, have it insulated and then refitted, by which time you may as well have bought a narrowboat.

 

When looking at sizes remember that a boat is 3 dimensional and a few feet in any direction makes a huge difference - see the picture of a 36 foot  GRP 'narrowboat' next  to my 36 foot 'widebeam'

Whilst we do not liveaboard our Cruiser - we could. She has been insulated and has full diesel 'central heating' and we spend 6 or 7 months on her at a time - plenty of room with a king-size bed and ensuite bathroom in the master cabin, lounge dining room and another cabin in the bow.

She is too big for the canals, but we used her on the Rivers before taking her back to the sea.

 

You need to go and look at a few boats "in the flesh" compare sizes and layouts as on many occasions a smaller boat can actually have a better layout and more usable room,

than a poorly laid out bigger boat.

 

 

 

 

CAM00019.jpg

 

Very good points as usual Alan. Very helpful, and already a lot to think about. I am planning to start seeing some of them this week but wanted to avoid loosing time with those that will be wrong anyway. Yes I am thinking of GRP boats as they are significantly cheaper, but will need to find one insulated (I doubt that would be the case for ex-rentals). I can upgrade later once seen that all works well for a year or two, to a better boat. I will have to sell the first one, and that is also an unknown to me. I do not have an idea how the market is and how easy or not is to sell a GRP.  And if you say that canal are off the way for wide beams, than I have to consider that in advance and possibly stick to a narrow beam and therefore, given your note, 36 ft max. Need to see if any good ones are around with enough room to live and work from her and insulation to survive the winter with standards of the modern homo sapiens

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

GRP River Broads cruisers built for hire are likely to be very sturdy hull wise but may have a lot of berths for the space and not so much storage, but it is always possible to remove berths and fit storage in their place. More often than not hire boats are deigned for easier maintenance rather than gizmos and aesthetics. There is one fleet on the Broads that I would be wary of maintenance wise, but generally boats coming out of hire have often been fairly well maintained because otherwise breakdowns become expensive. If you provide links to what interests you we may be able to comment.

 

I think, on balance, good GRP needs less maintenance than steel hulls although it can look scruffy.

 

GRP cruisers are likely to be less well thermally insulated and sliding wheel houses tend to be very drafty, whatever you do with them

Thanks Tony, once again. Luckily, at least with the first one, I am a lot less concerned about the look and a lot more about a good quality with little maintenance. I will look for what is on the market and sure will share. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

GRP River Broads cruisers built for hire are likely to be very sturdy hull wise but may have a lot of berths for the space and not so much storage, but it is always possible to remove berths and fit storage in their place. More often than not hire boats are deigned for easier maintenance rather than gizmos and aesthetics. There is one fleet on the Broads that I would be wary of maintenance wise, but generally boats coming out of hire have often been fairly well maintained because otherwise breakdowns become expensive. If you provide links to what interests you we may be able to comment.

 

I think, on balance, good GRP needs less maintenance than steel hulls although it can look scruffy.

 

GRP cruisers are likely to be less well thermally insulated and sliding wheel houses tend to be very drafty, whatever you do with them

 

Would that be Richardsons per chance?

 

As for living on a GRP cruiser, personally I would be very wary in Autumn/winter. That is unless it was very well insulated and had a very good heating system and the canopy didnt let a howling gale through it when windy. Having spent a very windy, cold and snowy three nights on one last April I would never contemplate even hiring one again at that time of year.

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Just now, M_JG said:

 

Would that be Richardsons per chance?

 

As for living on a GRP cruiser, personally I would be very wary in Autumn/winter. That is unless it was very well insulated and had a very good heating system and the canopy didnt let a howling gale through it when windy. Having spent a very windy, cold and snowy three nights on one last April I would never contemplate even hiring one again at that time of year.

 

You could say that, I could not possibly.

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3 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

Would that be Richardsons per chance?

 

As for living on a GRP cruiser, personally I would be very wary in Autumn/winter. That is unless it was very well insulated and had a very good heating system and the canopy didnt let a howling gale through it when windy. Having spent a very windy, cold and snowy three nights on one last April I would never contemplate even hiring one again at that time of year.

Very useful thanks. So one option is clearly off the table.

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Just now, VincePam said:

Very useful thanks. So one option is clearly off the table.

 

People do it but it is much easier to keep a properly insulated steel narrowboat/widebeam set up for living aboard in winter if comparing to something like an ex broads hire boat.

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15 minutes ago, VincePam said:

And if you say that canal are off the way for wide beams, than I have to consider that in advance and possibly stick to a narrow beam

 

It depends where you want to go - if you are sticking around Cambridge then a 'bit of width' shouldn't be to much of a problem. 

On the canals - some are 'wide' and some are 'narrow' and some are Wide then Narrow (Trent & Mersey) so decide where you want to cruise - if indeed you want to cruise.

 

I'd suggest that a 30 (ish) foot NB would be a bit tight for a couple and a teenager 'full time' liveaboards.

 

We had a 45 foot steel NB and it was fitted out perfectly for a couple - but if anyone wanted to stay then it was convert the setee to a bed which then needed making and putting away every day. No late night TV if someone was sleeping on the 'put you up' .

 

This was our 45 footer - you can see the layout (Juno) from when she was a hire boat - she was sold out of the fleet at 6 years old - First job was to remove the pump-out tank and have a cassette sytem fitted, then reorganise the bedroom and bathroom.

 

 

Weltonfield Advert.png

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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It depends where you want to go - if you are sticking around Cambridge then a 'bit of width' shouldn't be to much of a problem. 

On the canals - some are 'wide' and some are 'narrow' and some are Wide then Narrow (Trent & Mersey) so decide where you want to cruise - if indeed you want to cruise.

 

I'd suggest that a 30 (ish) foot NB would be a bit tight for a couple and a teenager 'full time' liveaboards.

 

We had a 45 foot steel NB and it was fitted out perfectly for a couple - but if anyone wanted to stay then it was convert the setee to a bed which then needed making and putting away every day. No late night TV if someone was sleeping on the 'put you up' .

 

This was our 45 footer - you can see the layout (Juno) from when she was a hire boat - she was sold out of the fleet at 6 years old - First job was to remove the pump-out tank and have a cassette sytem fitted, then reorganise the bedroom and bathroom.

 

 

Weltonfield Advert.png

Super. Clearly is a matter of me posting the right questions as you have all the answers! I will learn that in the coming days. Yes I will initially stick around Cambridge until the boy is out of the way, then we'll certainly move around, but possibly I will change the boat to fit the new scenario. So around Cambridge the width is not to much of a problem, you say. So need to do some homework here.

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8 minutes ago, VincePam said:

Super. Clearly is a matter of me posting the right questions as you have all the answers! I will learn that in the coming days. Yes I will initially stick around Cambridge until the boy is out of the way, then we'll certainly move around, but possibly I will change the boat to fit the new scenario. So around Cambridge the width is not to much of a problem, you say. So need to do some homework here.

 

 

Thick blue lines = 'Wide waterway'

Thin blue lines = 'Narrow waterway'

 

There is no link between Northern Wide waterways and the Southern Wide waterways - its a case of lift out and take a truck if you want to go to the other part of the country.

So you cannot get off the 'East Anglian waterways' in a wide beam (restriction at location "C") unless you go out to Sea and back inat Boston onto the River Witham.

 

 

widebeam map 12 feet.png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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With your budget of £50k, grp cruisers will look very tempting. But as already pointed out, be very wary of them as liveaboards. They are usually totally unsuited to cold weather.

 

In an ideal world with grown up kids (one of whom lives with you) you'd be looking for a steel 'narrowboat style' widebeam. However you'd need £75k for a semi decent one....I've seen a few go for £60k around here but they were pretty ropey. So that idea is probably out.

 

So you're left with a narrowboat....you want the biggest one you can find. Luckily boats in the 60' plus range tend to be a little cheaper than average as they are not 'go anywhere'...too long for a few of the northern waterways. With patience £50k should buy you a suitable boat. 

 

You really need to look at a few to narrow down the field, then more specific advice can be given to you.

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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Thick blue lines = 'Wide waterway'

Thin blue lines = 'Narrow waterway'

 

There is no link between Northern Wide waterways and the Southern Wide waterways - its a case of lift out and take a truck if you want to go to the other part of the country.

So you cannot get off the 'East Anglian waterways' in a wide beam (restriction at location "C") unless you go out to Sea and back inat Boston onto the River Witham.

 

 

widebeam map 12 feet.png

Fabulous! 

12 minutes ago, booke23 said:

With your budget of £50k, grp cruisers will look very tempting. But as already pointed out, be very wary of them as liveaboards. They are usually totally unsuited to cold weather.

 

In an ideal world with grown up kids (one of whom lives with you) you'd be looking for a steel 'narrowboat style' widebeam. However you'd need £75k for a semi decent one....I've seen a few go for £60k around here but they were pretty ropey. So that idea is probably out.

 

So you're left with a narrowboat....you want the biggest one you can find. Luckily boats in the 60' plus range tend to be a little cheaper than average as they are not 'go anywhere'...too long for a few of the northern waterways. With patience £50k should buy you a suitable boat. 

 

You really need to look at a few to narrow down the field, then more specific advice can be given to you.

75k is achievable if can be re-sold fairly easily if wife and kid appear not be be comfy.  I have no idea how long would take to resell such boats.

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3 minutes ago, VincePam said:

Fabulous! 

 

It is usefull but be aware it is a guide only based on lock width. Sections between locks can often be be quite narrow making passing other boats sometimes very tight in a widebeam.

 

On some canals eg the Erewash the width through some of the locks is affected by the profile of some of the accompanying bridges.

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1 minute ago, M_JG said:

 

It is usefull but be aware it is a guide only based on lock width. Sections between locks can often be be quite narrow making passing other boats sometimes very tight in a widebeam.

 

On some canals eg the Erewash the width through some of the locks is affected by the profile of some of the accompanying bridges.

 

And that brings us to the boat profile. A flat floor Caribbean style cruiser is likely to fit under bridges that a fly-bridge cruiser will not, but on others the almost vertical cabin sides may hit the sides of the arch where a narrower but taller boat could pass..

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32 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

And that brings us to the boat profile. A flat floor Caribbean style cruiser is likely to fit under bridges that a fly-bridge cruiser will not, but on others the almost vertical cabin sides may hit the sides of the arch where a narrower but taller boat could pass..

 

I've posted this before - but "a picture is worth 1000 words"

 

Bridge 'heights' can vary tremendously depending on the shape of the boat.

 

 

 

Arched Bridge and Widebeams.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I've posted this before - but "a picture is worth 1000 words"

 

Bridge 'heights' can vary tremendously depending on the shape of the boat.

 

 

 

Arched Bridge and Widebeams.jpg

Where is that bridge? It is quite an interesting construction. 

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2 hours ago, VincePam said:

Hi all

 

I recently joined this community as I am keen to move asap on a liveaboard fed up as we are of the usual routine. I live in Cambridge at present and have a wife and several kids, the last one of which still living with us and going to college. We both work mostly remotely from home. I am a long term sailor but know very little - literally a newbie on canal and river boats.

We are looking for one where to live full time, including my college son, and work from. So needs to be comfortable enough to allow us to stick together for longer that a week, but hopefully not too big to be requiring to much maintenance time and money. We will be living in a marina, so electricity should be available.

As soon as we started looking for which is best, we got confused. Potentially narrow boats are less attractive either because too narrow or too expensive. We stumbled upon various cruisers on the web, but I am really unable to tell which could be a good choice, being a reliable one, low maintenance, with enough space for a relatively low budget (up to 50k). We saw some good priced options, including ex rentals, but I haven't got a clue what the dark side of any river boat is.

 

Grateful if you can help me navigating this opportunity and making the right choice!

 

Thanks

Rent a flat :)

 

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Are you a DIYer?

If not, then I suggest you avoid any boat that needs any modification doing. It all very well for others to say you can just remove a spare bunk, or change a pump out toilet to a cassette, but if you can't do the work yourself you are committed to the cost of getting someone in and all the vagiaries of finding a competent tradesman, and then getting them to actually turn up, and do the work around you.

If you are a DIYer be aware that with space on a boat much more limited than even the smallest of houses, any sort of work will impact on all your living space and disrupt life for the whole family. And it will still costs twice as much and take three times as long as you think.

Edited by David Mack
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3 minutes ago, Laurie Booth said:

Rent a flat :)

 

I wondered if they already had one and were considering doing that but the other way around. 

 

Boats will tend to attract people due to the apparently cheap lifestyle but it really isn't as straightforward as it looks. I've  lived on boats all my adult life (28 yars) but throughout this time there have been compromises and it is always worth being aware that it is actually a boat. No matter how well marketed it is you can not avoid this basic fact. 

 

I think a lot of people don't fully appreciate this. 

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Bit of a long shot admittedly, but is this the sort of thing that might suit?

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/narrow-boats-widebeam-for-sale/718643

 

It would leave almost 20k of your budget for the inevitable upgrades and repairs, and it has a solid fuel stove, so not as cold as some of them during the winter. There are no details there about the engine though. 

 

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9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If not, then I suggest you avoid any boat that needs any modification doing. It all very well for others to say you can just remove a spare bunk, or change a pump out toilet to a cassette,

 

The changes to our boat - removing pump-out toilet and fitting a cassette toilet, turning the bed around and moving the bathroom wall cost £11,000 (in 2004)

 

You either DIY or you pay 'boat yard hourly rates' ( average around £60 + VAT per hour)

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