To compost or not to compost - The long read

[ditchcrawler]

I was reading of one who uses worms to help composting on board

[David Mack]

6 hours ago, magnetman said:

Plus if there is a trade association it seems reasonably probable that if a client keeps putting the wrong thing through the system perhaps they would get blacklisted. 

I think that would be in breach of competition law.

[magnetman]

30 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I was reading of one who uses worms to help composting on board

 

You have to get the right sort of worms. I remember our dung piles from the ponies. The worms were much smaller and more red coloured than the type we used to dig up and feed to our corn snakes. 

[PCSB]

7 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

You have to get the right sort of worms. I remember our dung piles from the ponies. The worms were much smaller and more red coloured than the type we used to dig up and feed to our corn snakes. 

I believe they are called brandling worms ... or sometimes tiger worms

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

A good example of what happens when part of a service is subcontracted - each subcontractor (sub)optimises their own part of the system. In this case the 'rules' may well allow the recycling collector to get a better profit by not accepting stuff that gets in the way of their 'system' but the rest will go somewhere. As a result, it is highly likely to end up in landfill with an increased cost to the LA and hence the rate payer. Indeed, the Landfill Tax was intended to put pressure on waste managers to try harder with recycling. If the LA is properly auditing itself then they may want to push back on this contractor, perhaps by changing the contract terms next time around. Too many people, esp LA staff, think that setting up subcontracts is easy - until they meet suboptimisers. If lucky, they learn and turn the screw next time but sadly some are not that well managed. (CaRT is a good example and they are gradually working what works and what is better kept in house - interfering politicians willing. The use of volunteers is similar)

That all assumes land fill is the main route to dispose of our black bag waste.

 

Unfortunately (or Fortunately?) it isnt. The majority of black bag waste goes to incineration these days and incineration costs are adjusted to match the landfill tax. This is the nub of the problem. The waste companies ie Biffa, Viridor  etc dont want poo in their incinerators. It has less calorific value than the average so reduces margins. They happily take nappies because of the plastic content which is higher in calorific value than most of what they put in. They can stop getting the dog poo and some of the human poo (the  7Kg limit) via their private contracts...but its all about money. We deal with all of these waste handlers with our involvement in Plastic recycling and it is all down to margins.

[Dr Bob]

42 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I was reading of one who uses worms to help composting on board

Worms are a good way to compost but only at low temperature. I think the max is around 45°C or maybe even less (<40°C). Once the temperature gets to the high 30's, the worms will start trying to get out of the box so not pleasant.

If you tried to take the box over 40 ish then you'd be killing off the worms - so using the roof to get to 50 to kill off the pathogens aint goin' to work.

I think Tiger worms are more temperature resistant but you still couldnt do it on the roof.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Alway Swilby said:

Ok, I'll rephrase it. Of all the boaters I know that have a separating toilet none of them bag and bin any more.

 

It only a small sample of about eight boats but they've all given up bagging and binning.

So what do they do instead -- have they removed the composting toilets (e.g. switched to cassette), or found some other way of disposing of the waste?

 

The problem is that -- as you've said -- this is a small sample, possibly about 1% of the total number of boats who installed composting toilets. There's no way of knowing if what the other 99% do is the same, you and all your friends may be conscientious law-abiding boaters who do "the right thing", but I think we all know that many boaters aren't -- and that bag'n'binning a composting toilet has many advantages compared to a cassette which is why people installed them, so anyone who is selfish and simply doesn't care about "the rules" is likely to carry on doing this because the chances of being caught are somewhere between tiny and zero.

 

No way to tell how many are doing this, but going by the fraction of boaters who ignore other rules I'd say it's not going to be tiny -- it may be a (large?) minority rather than a majority, but that could still be a lot of bag'n'binners... 😞

 

P.S. Kudos to you and your friends (and Dr. Bob) for following the new rules... 🙂

Edited January 11, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

Summer. Use excess solar to freeze the product then use the cannon or the trebuchet (French for a really cool type of catapult). Winter you use the ash and the ladle and put it in the fire. 

 

It is amazing that humans have developed such complex systems to dispose of a daily output you can fit into a box (average contents 280) of Ship matches. 

 

Madness of the highest order. 

[Alway Swilby]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

So what do they do instead -- have they removed the composting toilets (e.g. switched to cassette), or found some other way of disposing of the waste?

 

The problem is that -- as you've said -- this is a small sample, possibly about 1% of the total number of boats who installed composting toilets. There's no way of knowing if what the other 99% do is the same, you and all your friends may be conscientious law-abiding boaters who do "the right thing", but I think we all know that many boaters aren't -- and that bag'n'binning a composting toilet has many advantages compared to a cassette which is why people installed them, so anyone who is selfish and simply doesn't care about "the rules" is likely to carry on doing this because the chances of being caught are somewhere between tiny and zero.

 

No way to tell how many are doing this, but going by the fraction of boaters who ignore other rules I'd say it's not going to be tiny -- it may be a (large?) minority rather than a majority, but that could still be a lot of bag'n'binners... 😞

 

P.S. Kudos to you and your friends (and Dr. Bob) for following the new rules... 🙂

Four of the eight have installed cassette toilets much as they hate them. Three of the eight now fully compost back at their houses and use it on the garden. The remaining one sold the boat so they don't do anything.

 

As you say there is no way of us knowing how much still ends up in the bins but I would love to find out. My speculation is different to yours and I think there will be a lot less poo now than when the practice of binning was officially allowed.

 

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I was reading of one who uses worms to help composting on board

 

Does he buy them in cans? 

 

 

[magnetman]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Does he buy them in cans? 

 

 

 

Heinz to letter shaped worms in cans

It is called Alphabetti which is actually incredibly original considering that it is of Italian origin. 

 

Clever ! 

 

[ditchcrawler]

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Does he buy them in cans? 

 

 

No sells them to fishermen

[Mike Hurley]

33 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

 

 

As you say there is no way of us knowing how much still ends up in the bins but I would love to find out. My speculation is different to yours and I think there will be a lot less poo now than when the practice of binning was officially allowed.

 

 

I remember back in the summer the pictures in the news of the beaches and beauty spots around UK after the staycationers had visited. garbage and shite everywhere. Local people complaining of camper van dwellers taking a dump in hedgerows etc and emptying toilets in laybys. Seems to me that no one cares about anything except themselves which is why my guess is a lot of people will still bag and bin it anyway. Local water treatment companies that just dump millions of tons of the stuff regularly into the sea/rivers dont care so why should anyone else? Same goes for the eco warriors that go to concerts and abandon 1000s of tents/plastic waste items wherever they are making a save the planet point. Loads will still do it they just wont say they do. Someone elses problem as usual.

[magnetman]

8 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

I remember back in the summer the pictures in the news of the beaches and beauty spots around UK after the staycationers had visited. garbage and shite everywhere. Local people complaining of camper van dwellers taking a dump in hedgerows etc and emptying toilets in laybys. Seems to me that no one cares about anything except themselves which is why my guess is a lot of people will still bag and bin it anyway. Local water treatment companies that just dump millions of tons of the stuff regularly into the sea/rivers dont care so why should anyone else? Same goes for the eco warriors that go to concerts and abandon 1000s of tents/plastic waste items wherever they are making a save the planet point. Loads will still do it they just wont say they do. Someone elses problem as usual.

It's all screwed now. I used to think when I was younger that this slightly negative view was a symptom of ageing but now that I am a bit older I have realised that it actually IS all screwed. 

 

It will get worse before it gets better. And it won't get better ! 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by magnetman
Language

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Alway Swilby said:

Four of the eight have installed cassette toilets much as they hate them. Three of the eight now fully compost back at their houses and use it on the garden. The remaining one sold the boat so they don't do anything.

 

As you say there is no way of us knowing how much still ends up in the bins but I would love to find out. My speculation is different to yours and I think there will be a lot less poo now than when the practice of binning was officially allowed.

 

 

 

I think we're agreeing here (and disagreeing with those who say "everyone does it") -- I speculated that "it may be a (large?) minority rather than a majority, but that could still be a lot of bag'n'binners".

 

IIRC before CART changed the rules it was estimated there were maybe a thousand compost toilets on their waters, and (from the Facebook group survey) that about 70% (700) were bag'n'binners.

 

If more of them have now got rid of the toilets than kept them, then depending on how many rulebreakers there are (and going by other rules that boaters don't follow) maybe the number now is somewhere less than 300 (30%="a minority"), but I'd be surprised if it's less than 100 (10%="a small minority"). No hard evidence then, but a guess that there might still be a couple of hundred persistent rulebreaking bag'n'binners doesn't seem unreasonable -- which would at least mean most boaters who had compost toilets and bag'n'binned do now follow the rules.

 

But even though it is a lot less (or fewer...) boaters doing this than when CART allowed it, 200 (or even 100) is still a lot of poo bags in CART refuse bins... 😞

Edited January 11, 2023 by IanD

[peterboat]

32 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I think we're agreeing here (and disagreeing with those who say "everyone does it") -- I speculated that "it may be a (large?) minority rather than a majority, but that could still be a lot of bag'n'binners".

 

IIRC before CART changed the rules it was estimated there were maybe a thousand compost toilets on their waters, and (from the Facebook group survey) that about 70% (700) were bag'n'binners.

 

If more of them have now got rid of the toilets than kept them, then depending on how many rulebreakers there are (and going by other rules that boaters don't follow) maybe the number now is somewhere less than 300 (30%="a minority"), but I'd be surprised if it's less than 100 (10%="a small minority"). No hard evidence then, but a guess that there might still be a couple of hundred persistent rulebreaking bag'n'binners doesn't seem unreasonable -- which would at least mean most boaters who had compost toilets and bag'n'binned do now follow the rules.

 

But even though it is a lot less (or fewer...) boaters doing this than when CART allowed it, 200 (or even 100) is still a lot of poo bags in CART refuse bins... 😞

I have said this earlier on Facebook boating groups composting toilets are popular along with Cinderella toilets!

[Mike Todd]

14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

No sells them to fishermen

Jokes often get missed online!

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Jokes often get missed online!

 

Yeah I thought it was a good joke!

 

But clearly too subtle for most....

 

 

[Harpur Hill]

An interesting article here . . .

https://daily.jstor.org/waste-not-want-not/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

[ditchcrawler]

Here is one for the toilet debate Waste Not, Want Not - JSTOR Daily

 

[LadyG]

On 11/01/2023 at 17:15, Dr Bob said:

That all assumes land fill is the main route to dispose of our black bag waste.

 

Unfortunately (or Fortunately?) it isnt. The majority of black bag waste goes to incineration these days and  They happily take nappies because of the plastic content which is higher in calorific value than most of what they put in. They can stop getting the dog poo and some of the human poo (the  7Kg limit) via their private contracts...but its all about money. We deal with all of these waste handlers with our involvement in Plastic recycling and it is all down to margins.

Burning plastic to me is just asking for pcb's to be sent in the the earth's atmosphere where it stays forever. I'm not up to date with incineration these days, but earlier ones had grid filters on the outlet side to prevent H2So4 ie acid rain adding to our problems. These metal grids were effective, untill they corroded due to the acid . As the chimneys were tall the acid rain was carried away, to Scandinavia I believe. My birch logs come from Scandinavia. So there is some recycling going on.

Joe public is quite happy to burn waste wood in uncontrolled fires, with no concept of atmospheric contamination if using a chemically treated wood. I've returned kindling which has been recovered from old furniture or fencing, this is just a killer. It's still on sale to Joe Public. The people producing it are completely oblivious to the dangers.

Edited April 2, 2023 by LadyG

[LadyG]

On 08/01/2023 at 15:14, mrsmelly said:

Ahhhhh, now I see. It did take me two hours to read the thread though. Whilst I would never have a shit in a bag system myself, your undoubted expertise rather than google type expertise, that certain posters use is nice to read. It has been of assistance to me in one way already. I bought this boring house thingy nearly two years ago, it had/has a large compost pile in one corner of the garden that seems to do nowt but get bigger!!.

If I bought an eco fan and mounted it at the side of the compost would it aid the bugs doing their job or not?

In a garden you need three pallet size compost bins. After three years, assuming you have turned contents every three months you will have compost safe to spread under three bushes assuming you have a third of an acre garden.

[Dr Bob]

5 hours ago, LadyG said:

Burning plastic to me is just asking for pcb's to be sent in the the earth's atmosphere where it stays forever. I'm not up to date with incineration ..........

No, you certainly aren't. You dont make PCBs by burning plastic and if you did they wouldnt be in the atmosphere. They are heavy molecules so would settle on the ground hence remain in the environment.

You are mixing up PCBs with Dioxins. Dioxins are even worse than PCB and are made by burning plastic incorrectly. They will not form if the right combustion conditions are met. Therefore well run incinerators are no problems. Badly run ones are. Dioxins too will not persist in the atmosphere but agglomerate and contaminate the soil etc.

 

Dioxins are dependent on Chlorine being present in the plastic mix so burning PVC is particuarly bad.

 

Off course burning anything that could contain plastic on a solid fuel stove could generate dioxins as the conditions are usually  well away from the combustion temperatures needed for the optimum burning of the plastic.

[LadyG]

49 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

No, you certainly aren't. You dont make PCBs by burning plastic and if you did they wouldnt be in the atmosphere. They are heavy molecules so would settle on the ground hence remain in the environment.

You are mixing up PCBs with Dioxins. Dioxins are even worse than PCB and are made by burning plastic incorrectly. They will not form if the right combustion conditions are met. Therefore well run incinerators are no problems. Badly run ones are. Dioxins too will not persist in the atmosphere but agglomerate and contaminate the soil etc.

 

Dioxins are dependent on Chlorine being present in the plastic mix so burning PVC is particuarly bad.

 

Off course burning anything that could contain plastic on a solid fuel stove could generate dioxins as the conditions are usually  well away from the combustion temperatures needed for the optimum burning of the plastic.

Just so.