To compost or not to compost - The long read

[waterworks]

Just now, tree monkey said:

Maybe, but the contractor can refuse to empty bins if the waste contains proscribed rubbish, eventually withdrawing from the contract, so it's in CRTs interest to "ban" human fecal waste

Yes that what will happen, but my statement is still true. 

 

 

[David Mack]

19 minutes ago, waterworks said:

 have no powers to ban anything from being put in their contractors bins. 

Yes they do. CRT have no obligation to provide rubbish facilities of any sort. They are therefore free legally to either withdraw those facilities generally, or from specific individual boaters who may have breached the contractual Ts and Cs. Whilst there is a practical problem with enforcement of this approach, there is nothing in law to stop it.

Edited January 10, 2023 by David Mack

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, waterworks said:

Yes that what will happen, but my statement is still true. 

 

 

No you aren't, CRT provide the bin contract for us as part of a license agreement, they could as part of that license agreement tell us that the waste is not allowed to be put into the bins, therefore in affect banning us from doing it. It's in the boaters handbook I believe? For me it's not an option I would do and unless  a second bin was put in place for precomposted waste would consider right 

[tree monkey]

6 minutes ago, waterworks said:

Yes that what will happen, but my statement is still true. 

 

 

Depends how you define ban, possibly there isn't a actual strictly legal right but the end result is the same, CRT pays for the bins based on a signed contract, enough abuse of the bins and contractors stop emptying the bins, ultimately CRT could remove the service completely because as far as I know they have no legal obligation to provide the service

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

No you aren't, CRT provide the bin contract for us as part of a license agreement, they could as part of that license agreement tell us that the waste is not allowed to be put into the bins, therefore in affect banning us from doing it. It's in the boaters handbook I believe? For me it's not an option I would do and unless  a second bin was put in place for precomposted waste would consider right 

Boaters are shit at using bins. 
They’d rather continue filling the nearest bin to above overflowing than walk further in and fill an empty bin. 
 

Just a general observation. 

Perhaps a poo bin with a special/unique key would work?

[Alan de Enfield]

We have a contract with Biffa (well we actually have changed to Veolia recently but same 'rules').

It is a legal requirement that every year we have to make a declaration about what we will put into our waste called a 'waste transfer note'

 

Here is part of my renewal email : If they find anything in the bin which is not listed in my declaration, or, is on their 'banned list' then I will get a huge fine.

 

Your Annual Waste Transfer Note and Pre treatement Declaration for your site(s) are now available to view in the Customer Hub.

This is a legal compliance requirement and failure to complete this document may interrupt your collections.

You are legally required under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 (Section 34), Schedule 10 of the Environmental Permitting (England & Wales) Regulations 2016 and Regulation 12(1) of the Landfill (Scotland) Regulations 2003 to complete and return the enclosed documents.

Please check, and notify us of any amendments if necessary. Please retain a copy for a period of 2 years after the expiry date.

 

 

 

You may notice that outside some shops / offices the big commercial wheely bins have a lock - this is to prevent any 'passers by' from putting anything 'unknown to the company' into the bin. I am totally, legally, responsible for what goes into the bin and it is my responsibility to ensure that only the agreed & 'authorised' waste is put into the bin.

 

We are not allowed to put in unidentified 'municipal offensive waste', (which, whilst not hazardous is not allowed - this includes 'human excreta') in with the "Mixed Municipal Waste".

 

The Government rules are :

 

 

	Examples	Waste status	Human healthcare	Animal healthcare
Healthcare offensive waste	Outer dressings and protective clothing like masks, gowns and gloves that are not contaminated with body fluids, and sterilised laboratory waste	Non-hazardous	18-01-04	18-02-03
Municipal offensive waste	Hygiene waste and sanitary protection like nappies and incontinence pads	Non-hazardous	20-01-99	20-01-99

You must segregate healthcare offensive waste from both clinical and mixed municipal wastes.

If you’ve produced more than 7kg of municipal offensive waste, or have more than one bag in a collection period, you must segregate it from any mixed municipal waste.

 

 

You are allowed to have one 'tiger striped' bag (offensive waste identifier) in each collection period containing up to 7kg of offensive waste.

 

 

As you can imagine C&RT have no way of ensuring / controling that :

 

a) The toilet composters use 'Tiger striped' bags for their waste and 

b) No more than one bag (7kgs) of offensive waste can be put in each bin.

 

It is a totally impossible situation and the only possibility is to 'ban' in totality the dumping of ANY human waste / faeces / compost into the bins.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Midnight]

I know at least one boater who buries the 'compost' anywhere convenient. I suspect many boaters with compost toilets don't compost properly and continue to bag n bin or just get rid anyway they can causing problems for the rest of us. Sure Doctor Bob and others like him do the job right, but I have little faith in the majority. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Midnight

[Alan de Enfield]

Some interesting reading on the subject :

 

 

The Best Way to Dispose of Composting Toilet Waste (practically.green)

 

A couple of extracts :

Is it legal to dump composting toilet waste on the ground?

It is not legal to dump composting toilet contents on the ground because it takes a long time for human waste to fully decompose and kill any potential parasites or diseases in the process.

Additionally, having this type of substance near ground level can contaminate groundwater and other sources of drinking water as bacteria in the sewage can find their way into these areas through rainfall percolation and runoff.

 

 

Where NOT to dispose of compost human waste

 

While there are a number of choices and ways that you can dispose of your compost, it is important to not do so in certain places for safety reasons.

Let’s take a look at some options for disposing of your human compost safely!

• There are some places where it is not advisable to dispose of composting toilet waste, such as near food crops or in areas with high water tables
• Avoid disposing of composting toilet wastewater in sanitation systems – this can lead to clogging the sewer system or sewage overflows and cause potential health problems for those living nearby
• If you’re not sure where to put your composting toilet waste, consult a professional who specializes in these types of toilets
• Always make sure that you have an adequate amount of space reserved for storing any unused compost material in a waste container until it’s ready for disposal
• Consider building an outdoor composter if you don’t want to store the unused material inside a trash bin

Edited January 10, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Here is part of my renewal email : If they find anything in the bin which is not listed in my declaration, or, is on their 'banned list' then I will get a huge fine.

 

 

 

No you won't. 

 

Only the law can impose a fine as I understand it. You might get some sort of penalty applied for breach of contract but it won't be a fine. I thought we went through all this years ago with overstay 'fines', which turned out to be nothing of the sort.

 

 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

No you won't. 

 

Only the law can impose a fine as I understand it. You might get some sort of penalty applied for breach of contract but it won't be a fine. I thought we went through all this years ago with overstay 'fines', which turned out to be nothing of the sort.

 

 

 

Yes but we knew what Alan meant.

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you’re not sure where to put your composting toilet waste, consult a professional who specializes in these types of toilets

And there's the cop out. As so often with advice pages on the internet, when it gets to the specific point you want advice on you are just referred to an unnamed 'specialist'.

[Alan de Enfield]

48 minutes ago, MtB said:

Only the law can impose a fine as I understand it. You might get some sort of penalty applied for breach of contract but it won't be a fine. I thought we went through all this years ago with overstay 'fines', which turned out to be nothing of the sort.

 

 

It is the law.

 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You are legally required under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 (Section 34), Schedule 10 of the Environmental Permitting (England & Wales) Regulations 2016 and Regulation 12(1) of the Landfill (Scotland) Regulations 2003 to complete and return the enclosed documents.

 

The 'enclosed' documents are your signed agreement as to what can go in the bin.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It is the law.

 

 

The 'enclosed' documents are your signed agreement as to what can go in the bin.

 

Ah I see, thanks!

 

So it is the EA that fines you? Not Veolia?

 

 

[Chewbacka]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Ah I see, thanks!

 

So it is the EA that fines you? Not Veolia?

 

 

Probably it’s the court that fines you when prosecuted and found guilty of failing to comply with the law the AdE quoted earlier.

 

Unless you are a water utility company dumping untreated sewage into a river when not much seems to happen.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Chewbacka

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

Probably it’s the court that fines you when prosecuted and found guilty of failing to comply with the law the AdE quoted earlier.

 

Unless you are a water utility company dumping untreated sewage into a river when not much seems to happen.

 

Hmmmm, fanx! Mebbe that was the point I was failing to make. 

 

I still doubt AdeE gets fined for Veolia finding dog poo or human poo in the bins. 

 

Dumping untreated sewage into public water has been happening since the dawn of time I think. I remember my parents being dead picky about which  beaches we visited to swim in and eat sand in our sandwiches as children back in the 1960s....

 

 

 

 

 

[jonathanA]

I think veolia biffa etc have a much simpler sanction than EA taking you to court. They either charge you a fee for dealing with the problem or cancel your contract. If your a business and can't get your waste taken away your stuffed.

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

Plus if there is a trade association it seems reasonably probable that if a client keeps putting the wrong thing through the system perhaps they would get blacklisted. 

 

No idea if there is that level of cooperation though to be fair. 

 

 

[Jerra]

1 hour ago, jonathanA said:

I think veolia biffa etc have a much simpler sanction than EA taking you to court. They either charge you a fee for dealing with the problem or cancel your contract. If your a business and can't get your waste taken away your stuffed.

Our local council refuses to empty garden waste bins if the contain anything which "hasn't come out of your garden".   This happened to a neighbour I heard the altercation between him and the "bin men" but not what was in the bin.

 

I would imagine the firm refuisng tyo collect any of CRTs bins might give them a lot of power.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Our local council refuses to empty garden waste bins if the contain anything which "hasn't come out of your garden".   This happened to a neighbour I heard the altercation between him and the "bin men" but not what was in the bin.

 

I would imagine the firm refuisng tyo collect any of CRTs bins might give them a lot of power.

 

A few months ago our LA changed the method of recycling and sunbcontracted it all out to an Australian company - this meant additional (different coloured bins) and a total revamp of what was recyclable - we all got it wrong for the 1st few weeks  (ie only clean paper is now recyclable - any paper that has been in contact with food - like a pie box, food wrapping paper is now no longer recyclable and must go into the 'black' landfill bin. For plastics - another bin - basically only bottles and 'white plastic trays' are allowed, any 'film' type wrapping products, cellophane etc, must go in the black land fill bin)

 

You get three errors and then you are out (no more collections).

The bin men were told to examine the bin before emptying to see if they could see any 'foreign' objects, and also check the back of the truck after emptying the bin.

 

If anything was found it had to be removed and left with the householder AND a plastic label attached to the bin detailing what had been found and giving a warning of risk to further collections. The 'best thing' was that this plastic 'hang-tag' label was non-recyclable so once removed had to go in the land fill bin.

 

Its a nightmare when we have any visitors as every LA seems to have differing rules on what is and isn't recyclable. I open the bins every day just to check whats in it since the previous day.

 

I explain to everyone - if in doubt don't use the council bins - just put it in the 'company' Veolia waste bin (which is manually sorted at the other end when it is tipped out)

[Alway Swilby]

It is now more than a year since the ban on uncomposted poo being put into CRT bins has come into effect. I wonder how much poo still actually gets dumped in the CRT bins. I know we don't do it any more and I know of some boaters that have either changed to cassette or like us have changed the way they do things. I don't know of any boaters that still bag and bin. Obviously this is a small sample but I would speculate that there is "not much" poo finding its way into the bins nowadays. No doubt there are people on here that would speculate that there is "loads".

[Mike Hurley]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

Plus if there is a trade association it seems reasonably probable that if a client keeps putting the wrong thing through the system perhaps they would get blacklisted. 

 

 

 

 

Brownlisted more like.🤪

[IanD]

Just now, Alway Swilby said:

It is now more than a year since the ban on uncomposted poo being put into CRT bins has come into effect. I wonder how much poo still actually gets dumped in the CRT bins. I know we don't do it any more and I know of some boaters that have either changed to cassette or like us have changed the way they do things. I don't know of any boaters that still bag and bin. Obviously this is a small sample but I would speculate that there is "not much" poo finding its way into the bins nowadays. No doubt there are people on here that would speculate that there is "loads".

 

The problem is that there's no reliable evidence.

 

I could also point out that your knowledge may suffer from not being representative, in the same way that keeps coming up in any discussions about landlords -- it seems that everyone who posts on CWDF is a good and fair landlord, but this doesn't change the fact that there are lots of terrible unfair ones out there who presumably don't post here.

 

Same with poo bag'n'binning, most posters on here believe in generally following the CART rules on this and other things (illegal mooring, license fee payment, overstaying) but there are plenty of people out there who don't -- and again, don't post on here, either because they don't know CWDF exists or know they'd be shot down in flames if they revealed what they did.

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, Alway Swilby said:

It is now more than a year since the ban on uncomposted poo being put into CRT bins has come into effect. I wonder how much poo still actually gets dumped in the CRT bins. I know we don't do it any more and I know of some boaters that have either changed to cassette or like us have changed the way they do things. I don't know of any boaters that still bag and bin. Obviously this is a small sample but I would speculate that there is "not much" poo finding its way into the bins nowadays. No doubt there are people on here that would speculate that there is "loads".

But if they did they would have to be fairly dumb to tell others.

[Mike Todd]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A few months ago our LA changed the method of recycling and sunbcontracted it all out to an Australian company - this meant additional (different coloured bins) and a total revamp of what was recyclable - we all got it wrong for the 1st few weeks  (ie only clean paper is now recyclable - any paper that has been in contact with food - like a pie box, food wrapping paper is now no longer recyclable and must go into the 'black' landfill bin. For plastics - another bin - basically only bottles and 'white plastic trays' are allowed, any 'film' type wrapping products, cellophane etc, must go in the black land fill bin)

 

You get three errors and then you are out (no more collections).

The bin men were told to examine the bin before emptying to see if they could see any 'foreign' objects, and also check the back of the truck after emptying the bin.

 

If anything was found it had to be removed and left with the householder AND a plastic label attached to the bin detailing what had been found and giving a warning of risk to further collections. The 'best thing' was that this plastic 'hang-tag' label was non-recyclable so once removed had to go in the land fill bin.

 

Its a nightmare when we have any visitors as every LA seems to have differing rules on what is and isn't recyclable. I open the bins every day just to check whats in it since the previous day.

 

I explain to everyone - if in doubt don't use the council bins - just put it in the 'company' Veolia waste bin (which is manually sorted at the other end when it is tipped out)

A good example of what happens when part of a service is subcontracted - each subcontractor (sub)optimises their own part of the system. In this case the 'rules' may well allow the recycling collector to get a better profit by not accepting stuff that gets in the way of their 'system' but the rest will go somewhere. As a result, it is highly likely to end up in landfill with an increased cost to the LA and hence the rate payer. Indeed, the Landfill Tax was intended to put pressure on waste managers to try harder with recycling. If the LA is properly auditing itself then they may want to push back on this contractor, perhaps by changing the contract terms next time around. Too many people, esp LA staff, think that setting up subcontracts is easy - until they meet suboptimisers. If lucky, they learn and turn the screw next time but sadly some are not that well managed. (CaRT is a good example and they are gradually working what works and what is better kept in house - interfering politicians willing. The use of volunteers is similar)

[Alway Swilby]

1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

I don't know of any boaters that still bag and bin.

 

But if they did they would have to be fairly dumb to tell others.

Ok, I'll rephrase it. Of all the boaters I know that have a separating toilet none of them bag and bin any more.

 

It only a small sample of about eight boats but they've all given up bagging and binning.