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To compost or not to compost - The long read


Dr Bob

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To Pee, or not to Pee: that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the bladder to suffer

a full cassette of outrageous fortune,

Or to take arms against a hedge of brambles,

And by opposing empty it.

To die: to sleep;

No more; and by a sleep to say we end

The bladder-ache, and the thousand unnatural visits.

That flesh is heir to, 'tis a constipation

Devoutly to be flushed.

To die, to sleep;

To sleep: perchance to poo: aye, there's the rub;

For in that sleep of constipation what may come,

When we have shuffled off this mortal Thetford.

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3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

To Pee, or not to Pee: that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the bladder to suffer

a full cassette of outrageous fortune,

Or to take arms against a hedge of brambles,

And by opposing empty it.

To die: to sleep;

No more; and by a sleep to say we end

The bladder-ache, and the thousand unnatural visits.

That flesh is heir to, 'tis a constipation

Devoutly to be flushed.

To die, to sleep;

To sleep: perchance to poo: aye, there's the rub;

For in that sleep of constipation what may come,

When we have shuffled off this mortal Thetford.

 

Cheat, you cant have read it in that time!

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9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

To Pee, or not to Pee: that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the bladder to suffer

a full cassette of outrageous fortune,

Or to take arms against a hedge of brambles,

And by opposing empty it.

To die: to sleep;

No more; and by a sleep to say we end

The bladder-ache, and the thousand unnatural visits.

That flesh is heir to, 'tis a constipation

Devoutly to be flushed.

To die, to sleep;

To sleep: perchance to poo: aye, there's the rub;

For in that sleep of constipation what may come,

When we have shuffled off this mortal Thetford.

 

You've started something now. Next thing we know well have @TheBiscuits quotiing us Macbeth

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To be fair, a fessbook site dedicated to people who use composting lavatories is fairly unlikely to consist of people who think they are a Bad Idea. 

 

Sensible discussion includes people pointing out things like the fact that the CRT have specifically needed to ban lavatory waste from their domestic waste bins. 

 

This does seem to indicate that there is a problem and some people may not be using the equipment correctly. 

 

It doesn't mean it is a crap idea to use a separating/composting lavatory but you can't really argue that there is not a problem of sort otherwise this would not have happened. 

 

I'm sure it can work for some people but equally sure it can't work for other people. The disposal of the waste product IS a problem. It isn't a made up problem it is just a problem. 

 

Obviously lavatories on boats is a major topic so there will be polarised views but I personally think a sensible discussion involves dealing with other opinions you don't agree with. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Dr Bob here with the duck

Well things haven't changed much here in the 2 year since my last comments on composting toilet waste. Still the same un-informed bullies, loudmouths and Crocodiles (big mouths and no ears) beating down any attempt at a reasoned argument why composting may be good on a boat. The aggression shown to Squid's 'first time' question on the topic in a recent thread shows just what a toxic place this can be. I write this note – and it is a long one – to give some hope to those who seek some real input to their decision on whether to attempt to compost their toilet waste on a boat – but it is a long read. I expect the crocodiles will give up pretty quickly. If you get bored easily then dont bother reading any further.

Let's be clear, after having a separating toilet on our boat and composting our waste for 2 years now, I can honestly say it has been the best purchase ever for a boat. This is on a boat that was brand new in 2020. After 6 months we ditched the state of the art pump out macerator toilet for a Compoost loo (anyone want to buy the toilet and holding tank?). I'm not going into detail of why it has been the best purchase. The list is too long. But believe me, it has been our best purchase.

So why am I posting such a long and rambling post on here? Well, there are a couple of big points that I think are never discussed but provide all the ammunition for the naysayers and Crocodiles to beat all who stick their heads above the parapet into submission and silence the large number of people (inc on here) who have these toilets. Maybe it will help those trying to understand if composting human waste on a boat is a viable route.

The Crocodiles can now go and spout their un-informed rubbish on other threads. For the interested, please read on.

 

The first big issue is when the Crocodiles use the phrase ' it's disgusting' when referring to separating toilets and composting of the waste solids. If you see anyone saying “it's disgusting” then you know they dont know what they are talking about. They've probably never seen a separating loo. So many of them dont even have canal boat – so how can their words be believed?

Let's look at how conventional toilets work. You sit on the bowl and deposit a load of wee and poo in the bowl (not necessarily in that order). The instant these two streams meet, enzymes in the streams start a chemical reaction which turns urea in the urine into ammonia and some other very smelly molecules. The evolution of ammonia is significant and as the volume builds you start smelling a very unpleasant smell coming from between your legs. That is disgusting. Can you remember exiting the bathroom and closing the door, saying to the next person “I'd give that 5 mins if I were you”? Yes that is disgusting. Separating toilets – if they are working properly and used properly – do not mix the wee and poo so you dont get the ammonia evolution and there is almost zero smell. In the 2 years of operation, I have never smelt the disgusting smell made by previous user (or by me). Handling the waste after (the poo box and wee bottle) is not at all smelly or unpleasant. We were up in Jockland for 4 weeks in December and using the loo in the house was an experience. Very smelly. You just dont get that on the boat.

Everyone I know who has moved to a separating toilet has said the same. I note one person on here who moved back to a conventional toilet after trying a separating toilet but I wonder if he had a well designed separating toilet or even used it right. If he had smell then something was very wrong. Separating toilets are not disgusting. What is disgusting is asking your visitors not to use the toilet after eating sweetcorn or apple cores. Well its not the asking that's disgusting, its the job needed to clean the remnants out of the duck valves in a vacuuflush system. Similarly replacing the seals in a leaking cassette and dont get me started on the state of the elsan points on the network. Disgusting is the word to describe it.

No, if someone says to you that separating toilets and composting of the solids is disgusting, then it is clear that they have no experience of the issue which then questions anything else they may utter.

 

The second big issue is can you compost human poo? This is a real issue and in defence of the Crocodiles, I can see why they may say its impossible, so how do you dispose of you untreated poo? I really can see why you are so passionate about our inability to compost. Let me try and tackle this thorny subject and bring some clarity to the debate.

I am going to digress here and declare a professional interest. I am a director of a test laboratory up in Jockland. In 20 years we have grown to be one of the countries best respected UCAS accredited test labs in the UK for testing of plastics. At the start of 2020 we expanded our expertise to cover biodegradation testing of initially plastic packaging materials and that has now grown to the point we are one of the leading test labs for biodegradation and composting in the UK. We test a range of packaging products to see if they biodegrade or can be composted (either for home or industrial composting) using a range of Eu defined test standards and methods. We test to BS EN13432, ISO 16929, PAS 9017, ISO 17556, ISO 14855 and ISO 20200 amongst others. Have a read of the BS EN 13432 standard to see what is involved. We know what composting is all about. I personally have been the technical gatekeeper for this activity so now see myself as an expert in the field.

Unfortunately however, the majority of people in the UK do not know how to compost – and that was also me 5 years ago. I've lived in a house with a garden for 40 odd years and being a keen gardener, always had a compost heap. Various heaps, boxes, machines. None worked. Filled them up in spring and summer and by next spring – nothing had happened. In 40 years I likely only ever made a few shovelfuls of good compost. Composting doesnt work, does it? Maybe that is too sweeping a statement but there is some supporting info out there.

Three months ago, University College London (UCL) wrote a paper summarising a trial they ran over 24 months, asking the public to compost in their home heaps, bins, custom designs etc, items you can buy which claimed to be 'home compostable'. The output of this was picked up by the Guardian and ran as a story claiming that over 60% of items claimed to be home compostable were not. Now, these were not just items claiming to be compostable, they were items deemed to be compostable by the accreditation organisation TUV, a very very well known Austrian company. TUV run a scheme where clients get their products tested and TUV accredit that it is all done right. The UCL study concluded over 50% of their accredited products did not home compost, things like plastic cups, wet wipes etc. We as a company do not work with TUV but the labs TUV use are bone fide labs and do things right. We know the limitations of the test methods but the huge discrepancy here is because the average Jo public doesnt know how to compost. To compost properly you need food, water and oxygen. It's really is very simple but the majority of peeps do not know that -so dont understand what composting is, how to do it or what it can achieve. Let's then look in a bit more detail at composting.

The words 'industrial composting' describes the process that the big compost makers use to make their compost. We are dealing here with aerobic composting (ie with air) and not anaerobic digestion which is a totally different process (which is where all food waste in the UK goes). Industrial composters use a 12 week cycle to complete the composting process – to turn for example garden waste into a fully composted product. Yes, only 12 weeks. The temperatures used are of the order 65°C for a couple of weeks then 55/60°C for another 6 weeks followed by <45°C for the final month. In the lab we use kit that simulates large scale Windrow composting – kit that is not a million miles away from the mini-hot bins you see used on boats for hot composting. For the ISO 16929 test, we run these bins at the temps above to monitor biodegradation and fragmentation to show what composts and what doesnt. What is absolutely clear is the things like food waste or horse manure, that we use to create the composting medium, degrade totally in the 12 weeks to a soil like, compost. It looks like soil, its smells like soil and it probably tastes like soil. The biodegradation is the action of bugs (ie bacteria etc) eating the food (the waste you put in). You can clearly measure how fast the bugs eat by I) the temperature rise and ii) the amount of CO2 evolved as they eat the long carbon chains. To multiply and eat, the bugs need food, oxygen and water. Get any of those 3 wrong and the biodegradation will not happen properly.

In performing these tests we have learnt what food the bugs like. Firstly you have to have a balanced Carbon/Nitrogen ratio but then some food is better than others. An example is sawdust vs coconut choir. Sawdust is a pig for the bugs to eat. You really need the whole 12 weeks to get that to degrade. The coconut Choir disappears in half the time. Newspaper is a pig. Too much lignin. Good quality office paper goes in half the time (far less lignin). Food waste and horse manure is a delicacy for the bugs and half way through our 12 week cycle the food waste is fully decomposed. There is a test for the maturity of a compost ie the Rottegrad test, which is used to determine the final quality of the compost.

So, where does that get us? We know we can fully biodegrade food waste and horse manure in 6 weeks at 'industrial' temperatures. The product is not food waste or horse manure. It is a fully degraded compost. It is therefore interesting to see these mini hot bins being used on boats. Yes, they really do work, and work very well. In that cold spell before Christmas at the lab, we had night time lows of -9°C and day time highs of -5°C in Livingston yet we were maintaining 60°C in a couple of hot bins we were testing to see the limits of the low temp performance. Quite a few peeps have these on their boat (they fit in an open cratch quite well), but the drawback for me is that you need to feed them with things other than poo – otherwise there is not enough food. This then doubles the amount of compost you make so disposing of it is more tricky. What's then best way to do it on a boat? Human manure degrades exactly the same way and at the same speed as food waste/horse manure - chemically it is almost the same.

I talked about food, oxygen and water but the other key input is temperature. Typically chemical reactions half in speed if you drop the temperature by 10°C. This means composting speeds reduce as the composting temperature goes down. If then you can aim to drop temperatures from the 60's/50's to 40/30's you will basically quadruple the times seen in the industrial composting work. This is what we do on the boat. We have 3 * 40L boxes. Our poo bin is emptied into box 1 (on the crusier stern every 5 to 6 days). It takes circa 12 weeks to fill the box. It is then transferred to a similar volume box(es) on the roof and box 1, now empty is ready to take the next 12 weeks of poo. 3 months later box 1 is emptied into the 3rd 40L box. We are not full time liveaboards (but on the boat all summer) – but extrapolating we make circa 160L of solid waste a year which decays down to around 120L. With a decent size boat (ie 65ft) we have loads of roof space so storing this amount of solids in not a chore. In the summer the dark blue roof gets to 65 to 70°C more days than it doesn't so allows you to get a lot of heat into the roof boxes. Our poo mix is fully composted down to compost only in 6 months max in the summer (ie a couple of months on the roof) and the the stuff produced in the Oct- Feb time is fully composted after starting the first part of the summer on the roof. From my experience of knowing what compost looks like at various stages of decomposition, I can see how well ours is composted. At the end of the 6 months (summer waste) or 9 month (winter waste), I can see that we have perfect compost which is no longer poo. We use that 120L direcct for our plant pots, half for the summer pots and half for the winter pots. No soil. Just compost. Last summer we had the best tomatoes in the marina. As the compost has seen temps of 50-60°C and spent 6 months well aerated, all the pathogens are dead. It is absolutely fascinating to see a box containing a mix of human poo and coconut choir change before your eyes in 6 months to be a non toxic valuable resource.

A long way back up this thread, I said that it was impossible to home compost. For most it is. For most they will look in disbelief that you can turn turds into compost. It is totally a surprise that you can do it with very little effort if you do it properly. Once you get over that hurdle then it suddenly dawns on you that you can compost human waste on a boat – and all of a sudden a separating toilet becomes an option. Yes guys, it works. It's not disgusting. Using the heat of the roof of the boat gets you to the point where you can compost in a short space of time.

The wee bottle ….you ask? Down the elsan (that's how I know what a crap state they are left in!) or down a toilet. Siiimple.

Obviously the Crocodiles who are on my blocked list will not get any replies from me on this thread but if anyone needs more info then the best thing is to go over to the farcebook site on boat composting as there are some very knowledgable people over there with a wealth of information. You wont get a sensible discussion over here.

Definitely the best thing we ever bought for the boat...but make sure you get a properly designed one that works.

See you all in another 2 years to see if you've all lightened up.

An interesting post and I can certainly agree about the lack of basic knowledge about composting, my knowledge is practical rather than scientific but ranging from allotment scale/small garden and small estate, mostly "cold" rather than the "hot" that you are talking about, so 12 months as apposed to the 12 weeks.

 

Anyway the issue I have is still the disposal of the material properly composted or not and is related to the oft mentioned "it's a fertiliser so it must be good", the careless disposal of highly organic waste can fundamentally change a habitat, I also admit that most canal side habitats are unlikely to be negatively affected by said disposal but there might be, so what I'm saying is it should be standard procedure to dump the compost in an appropriate location and spread in an area that will benefit 

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At risk of being labelled a crocodile, I'm still puzzled about how/where one disposes of the compost. What sort of volume per 12 weeks is produced? Is the volume small enough to all disappear into houseplant pots? 

 

Its easy to poke holes in the idea of composting bogs but I am agnostic and perfectly willing to be convinced they are a Good idea, but I don't yet see how on my tug style boat other than by storing the containers on the tug deck, and here is where some psychology kicks in. I don't much fancy fielding the (probably never-ending stream of) questions from the Great Unwashed about what the bins are for. 

 

Is this pure Ludditery? 

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5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 The disposal of the waste product IS a problem. It isn't a made up problem it is just a problem. 

 

 

 

 

Not if you compost the waste. The waste is then no longer waste and can be used as any other scarce resource.

 

Of course its an issue if you start by throwing it all in a bin - but sensible people dont do that so these toilets are an excellent solution for sensible people.

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Ahhhhh, now I see. It did take me two hours to read the thread though. Whilst I would never have a shit in a bag system myself, your undoubted expertise rather than google type expertise, that certain posters use is nice to read. It has been of assistance to me in one way already. I bought this boring house thingy nearly two years ago, it had/has a large compost pile in one corner of the garden that seems to do nowt but get bigger!!.

If I bought an eco fan and mounted it at the side of the compost would it aid the bugs doing their job or not?

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19 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I'm not going into detail of why it has been the best purchase.

 

Hang about, even better than the duck, the lithium batteries, the infrequent red thermometer and the hand cranked singer? Not to mention the baby equaliser stove fan.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

You sit on the bowl and deposit a load of wee and poo in the bowl (not necessarily in that order). The instant these two streams meet, enzymes in the streams start a chemical reaction which turns urea in the urine into ammonia and some other very smelly molecules.

 

This is common knowledge that has been around since the mid 1980's .The goatbusters warned us of what would happen if we crossed the streams. It didn't end well.

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1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

.... - but sensible people dont do that so these toilets are an excellent solution for sensible people.

 

Now we're getting somewhere. 

 

There is an obvious issue here isn't there. 

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3 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

An interesting post and I can certainly agree about the lack of basic knowledge about composting, my knowledge is practical rather than scientific but ranging from allotment scale/small garden and small estate, mostly "cold" rather than the "hot" that you are talking about, so 12 months as apposed to the 12 weeks.

 

Anyway the issue I have is still the disposal of the material properly composted or not and is related to the oft mentioned "it's a fertiliser so it must be good", the careless disposal of highly organic waste can fundamentally change a habitat, I also admit that most canal side habitats are unlikely to be negatively affected by said disposal but there might be, so what I'm saying is it should be standard procedure to dump the compost in an appropriate location and spread in an area that will benefit 

i think the key here is that the 'highly organic waste' is no longer highly organic after composting. The bugs reduce the waste to compost. Once our pots are finished with they go on a compost heap. I agree with you.

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Just now, mrsmelly said:

Ahhhhh, now I see. It did take me two hours to read the thread though. Whilst I would never have a shit in a bag system myself, your undoubted expertise rather than google type expertise, that certain posters use is nice to read. It has been of assistance to me in one way already. I bought this boring house thingy nearly two years ago, it had/has a large compost pile in one corner of the garden that seems to do nowt but get bigger!!.

If I bought an eco fan and mounted it at the side of the compost would it aid the bugs doing their job or not?

Can you paraphrase it for me, It was far too long to actually read. It needed a TL;DR in my opinion.

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I have had a composting toilet on the boat for 4 years now, so it has been in use by two people for two years (we only spend half the year on the boat).

 

I would not change it now and for obvious reasons, I am not particularly interested in discussing toilets with people who have no practical experience. They can bring little of substance to the debate.

 

Dr Bob mentions "disgusting" as a trigger word in recognising these people, "bucket of shit under the bed" is another useful trigger.

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Just now, Dr Bob said:

i think the key here is that the 'highly organic waste' is no longer highly organic after composting. The bugs reduce the waste to compost. Once our pots are finished with they go on a compost heap. I agree with you.

 

How do you know for sure the composting process worked and finished and there are no pathogens left in it?

 

Just by looking at it? That doesn't seem very reliable to me. I'd like to see a testing process. 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Very interesting.... good point on using the roof temps to assist....

I'm not going to cruise looking over a series of shit bags, whether it's composting or not. I'll use the Elsan.

I have considered an alternative using cat litter in case of emergencies, not ever going to faff about with my poo in plastic bags.

If I had a garden mooring, and a boat, I might consider limited composting, but not for the veggie garden as I am not going to record temperatures, or test for E.coli or even think about it when I'm enjoying my afternoon tea.

Scotland has had Water Closets for several generations. If you go to the outer islands the water may be tinted brown. That is due to peat, it's not unclean, just unprocessed by chemicals.

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2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Ahhhhh, now I see. It did take me two hours to read the thread though. Whilst I would never have a shit in a bag system myself, your undoubted expertise rather than google type expertise, that certain posters use is nice to read. It has been of assistance to me in one way already. I bought this boring house thingy nearly two years ago, it had/has a large compost pile in one corner of the garden that seems to do nowt but get bigger!!.

If I bought an eco fan and mounted it at the side of the compost would it aid the bugs doing their job or not?

I remember writing something on eco fans a while back. I think that was longer!

Turn the heap. That's what you are doing wrong. Problem is it is too much like hard work to turn a heap so it never gets done so it never composts down. Let the heap get to a critcal size then sell the  house and buy another with a smaller heap.

2 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I have had a composting toilet on the boat for 4 years now, so it has been in use by two people for two years (we only spend half the year on the boat).

 

I would not change it now and for obvious reasons, I am not particularly interested in discussing toilets with people who have no practical experience. They can bring little of substance to the debate.

 

Dr Bob mentions "disgusting" as a trigger word in recognising these people, "bucket of shit under the bed" is another useful trigger.

Agreed

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Just now, Dr Bob said:

I remember writing something on eco fans a while back. I think that was longer!

Turn the heap. That's what you are doing wrong. Problem is it is too much like hard work to turn a heap so it never gets done so it never composts down. Let the heap get to a critcal size then sell the  house and buy another with a smaller heap.

Perhaps you could dig up ( see what i did there ) the old eco fan thread?

Blimey, must go, its doggy walking time.

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I'm not against the idea as it does seem interesting. 

However it has to be said that storage on canal boats is a relevant point. You don't have all that much room to keep things. Priorities change. I once found several bags of smokes less fuel discarded by a bin store simply because it was no longer winter. I took the fuel and kept it for a rainy day. 

 

I think a similar situation can occur with the storage of the output from the offloading device.  It is possible, and in a lot of cases of course it won't happen, that the storage of the product will be viewed as less of a priority than disposal. This is where the issue will occur. 

 

Definitely good for people who are "into it" but possibly not a suitable solution for wider adoption. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, MtB said:

At risk of being labelled a crocodile, I'm still puzzled about how/where one disposes of the compost. What sort of volume per 12 weeks is produced? Is the volume small enough to all disappear into houseplant pots? 

 

 

We produce 40L in 12 weeks. Over a full year it decomposes to circa 120L. We werent on the boat a full year but put half in our plant pots in April and half in the pots in october.

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I'm not against the idea as it does seem interesting. 

However it has to be said that storage on canal boats is a relevant point. You don't have all that much room to keep things. Priorities change. I once found several bags of smokes less fue discarded by a bin store simply because it was no longer winter. I took the fuel and kept it for a rainy day. 

 

I think a similar situation can occur with the storage of the output. It is possible, and in a lot of cases or course it won't happen, that the storage of the product will be viewed as less of a priority than disposal. This is where the issue will occur. 

 

Definitely good for people who are "into it" but possibly not a suitable solution for wider adoption. 

 

 

Fully agree with you, but it is easier than you think.

11 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

When shall we three meet again?

In thunder, lightning or in rain?

 

:D

 

Dunno,

wheres you goin' be in May? I'll bring a brolly.

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8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

i think the key here is that the 'highly organic waste' is no longer highly organic after composting. The bugs reduce the waste to compost. Once our pots are finished with they go on a compost heap. I agree with you.

Compost is by it's nature a highly organic product, it's the nature of the beast, as an example over Christmas I found what used to be a muck heap, 30yrs of horse manure and its garden gold, but it is almost pure organic material, certainly very different from the local clay based soil.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

 

Fully agree with you, but it is easier than you think.

I'm sure it is easy but I still think the actual storage and related disposal regime is going to cause problems for average canal boat users. 

 

For example if someone had a dilemma about either storing some extra beers or wine on the boat or keeping some product in boxes or bags it seems plausible that over time the priority would be given to the beer. 

 

It is a shame that there isn't such a thing as a composting "cold box". If that could be done then one could use it to cool the beers in summer. That definitely could be quite interesting but apparently it works the other way around. 

 

Another thing to bear in mind is that a lot of people don't particularly want to see the output. I personally think that it is important to engage with the stools but this isn't that common. Most people just want rid of the stuff asap. Either that or store it in enormous tanks beneath the bed along with dodgy chemicals. 

 

 

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